Design questions for a new barn

[Jim_Rogers]

Recently a new member jPell, asked me to help him with some design question for his new barn he's planning on making in NH.

I suggested we move this discussion from PM's to the open forum so that all can see and learn from how we figure all these things out.

Answering these types of questions would be best in the open forum for all to hear and understand. These pre-design questions are great for all to think about.

Here is his questions and ideas.

Hi Jim. I've been reading a bunch of your posts and was wondering if I could run something by you. I'm planning on building a small barn/run-in for my wifes horse here in Lakes Region New Hampshire and I'm questioning some of my timbers. I've done some framing before but this will be my first timber frame project (and I'm really looking forward to it!!). So far my plans are for an overall size of 12x30(ish) out of pine. It will be layed out as... 12ft stall - 12ft stall - 6ft tack room... all side-by-side to make up the 30 feet. Probably 9ft ceiling with a hay loft above. I'm looking to have a 10/12 pitch roof. Probably metal. I'm up in the air between conventional vs rafter/purlin.

My timber questions are as follows...

*Corner posts- Should I go with 8x8 or would 6x6 be heavy enough?
*Mid-posts- I'd like to go slightly smaller than the corner posts for the look. (If 8x8 corner posts, then 6x6 mid-posts and so on.
*If I go with rafter/purlin, do you suppose 6x8 rafters at every post would be sufficient?

I understand all this may be a little vague or dependent on other factors but I'm not sure what other info to give.

Thank you in advance for your time.

jPell

And here was my answers:

Without knowing exact load to be place on the post, it's hard for me to say.
What you need to do is get the snow load for your area from your building department of the town where the barn will be built. This will help us with the roof load.
Next you need to figure the floor area of the loft where the hay will be stored. And we'll need to know the average weight and size of a bale of hay you intend to store up there. After that we can figure the number of bales of hay that will be stored up there. This will give us the pounds per square foot on the second floor deck.
Once we know that we can figure the size of the floor joist, then the tie beam to hold up the floor joists, then the post to hold up the tie beam.
You have to size from the floor out to the post, and the roof out to the post, combining all loads as you go.
The next thing you have to consider is the size of the post, a 6x6 doesn't have a lot of room for joinery to join the piece together.
If you want to increase the strength of the post to hold up heavy loads and you don't want to increase the size of the post you need to change the type of wood to a stronger type, like red oak.

There are several factors to consider when you are trying to decide which type of roof system to use.
One system is common rafters and the other is principal rafters with purlins.
These two roof systems are constructed differently. Principal rafters and purlins require a lot more joinery to be cut. And the assembly of rafters and purlins is harder then simple common rafters.
Once we know the snow load we can size the rafters and work on the spacing between the rafters. Knowing that you're going to use a metal roof reduces the snow load duration factor. That is how long the snow will be on your roof, as you probably know when the sun heats up a metal roof the snow slides off. So instead of melting it and dripping off an asphalt roof the snow slides off with a thump. You may need to prepare for that factor as well. Such as roof snow guards that break up the snow as it slides off, especially where the doorways are, so that the snow doesn't land on someone walking in or out of the building exactly when the snow is sliding off.

Jim Rogers

PS. Now we can discuss the specific design ideas with actual details of the project.

[Jim_Rogers]

When I begin a new project I start with laying out a floor plan based on what the client has told me they want.

jPell has said he wants a run in barn with two 12' stalls and one 6' tack room, making it 30' long.

Width was to be 12' wide.

Based on this information I would make up a floor plan that looks like this:



I have also attached a pdf of the floor plan on 8 1/2" x 11" paper for the client to download and use to make notes and decisions on.

As you can see by the drawing I have created four "Bents" and I have labeled them using the circle tag. The circle tag is positioned on the reference face of these four bents.

Bent 4 is opposite bents 1 through 3, as it has to be, because it's an outside wall.

I have also labeled the two long walls, A + B.

This way he can say, "Jim, I have a question about post B3." And I'll know exactly which post he is talking about.

One of the first question I would ask is: "which way is north?" Can you draw in a north arrow for me?

Next, I might ask if the bents are spaced correctly? Or does he want the center line of bents 2 and 3 to be on the 12' dimension line?

He mentioned that he wanted a 10x12 roof pitch.

But he didn't say if he wanted a standard gable roof or a shed roof.

Some "run in" buildings for horses are open sided on one side and the roof sheds back away from that side.

So we need to understand if this is a fully enclosed building or only a three sided building.

Next if we assume it's a fully enclosed building, then we'd need to understand where the doors and windows are going to be.

One area is said to be a "tack room" so I'd have to assume at least that area is going to be fully enclosed to protect the tack from the weather. And to keep it secure.
That would mean that there should be a person size door and most likely at lease one window for natural light.

I would ask the client to draw in the doors and windows on the floor plan. And then if possible either scan the page or take a picture of it and then email me back the picture, so that I could see his ideas.
After those were received I'd update the floor plan with the info.

Other questions I would have, beyond what he as already told us, would be what amount off roof overhang do you want on the gable end walls? And what amount on the eave walls?

With this information we can begin to figure out the roof shape and size.

Once this is posted we can move on.

Jim Rogers

[jPell]

Wow, Jim. I honestly didn't expect such a detailed response. Thanks a bunch and I'll get right on this floor plan.

Josh

[Jim_Rogers]

ok, well reply with detail which ever way you can.

If you can answer the question above that will be great.

And if you can scan or photo the floor plan and email that to me so I can update it here that would also work.

Jim Rogers

[jPell]

 

 

Here are my revisions to the floor plan. If for some reason the quality is too low, this same pic is in my gallery or you can pm me your email and I'll send you the high quality image that way.

As far as answers to your questions/concerns...

** Wall "B" will be facing north (I drew a north arrow on the floor plan)
** The bents are spaced fine. The dimensions of the stalls are not super critical.
** I'd like the roof to be a 10/12 gable roof. As far as overhangs, somewhere around 4 inches (unless another length will work out better) on the gable ends. Around a foot on the north wall (B) and I'd like to have something around two feet on the south wall (A) above the doors. If it's just as easy to go longer on the south wall, it would be nice but not that important.
** After talking it over with my better half, she would like to make it a full enclosed building so she can close them up at night if she feels the need.
** All three doors will be 7 feet tall. The stall windows will be 2 feet tall and the bottom of them will be 5 feet from the ground. The windows in the tack room will be whatever works and looks good (two of them on the east wall).
** The snow load for our area is around 80-90 lbs.
** The hay loft will end up around 370 sq/ft and could hold a max of 250ish bales. I don't see her having much more than 150 or so up there at a time but who knows. 250 bales at an average of 75 lbs each would be a load of 18,750 lbs max.

I'm sure I'm missing something but this should be a decent start. Looking forward to what you have to say and also to compare the way it should be to what I have on paper so far.

Josh

[Rooster]

Josh,
I have a few questions about your future project.  I also own horses, and have designed a few buildings.  Before you get too far with the "final" plans, I want to point out some things that you might want to think about.
Is the 12x 30, the biggest foot print that you are allowed to build on your property?
How do you intend to get the 75# hay bales up into the loft? (which seem sort of heavy, unless they are pure alfalfa and baled tight.)
How will you get them down to feed? Will you need to toss them outside the building before you bring them back in to feed?
Will the loft have a short knee-wall?
Will there be electrity in the building?
Lights in each stall?
Tall enough stall ceilings so that the horses can't reach the loft joists and chew?
Water hydrant in the building?
Bars on stall windows?

I'm only asking so that I can get a better picture of your intended set-up...I might have some ideas to help you when doing chores on a daily basis.

Rooster

[jPell]

Hi, Rooster. I am not limited to the size (within reason), we just figure that this size will work well for what she wants to do. We'll probably toss the bales up into a door to the loft at the west gable end until we venture into the world of conveyors. Either that or raise them up with a tractor. I know 75# is a little heavy but I'm just using those figures as a worst case scenario. She'll also have access to the hay loft from her tack room and will be able to toss bales down into there which is probably where she'll keep the open bales until they're gone. The loft will have somewhere around a 3' knee wall. Sooner or later (hoping sooner) there will be electricity to the building with ample lighting inside and out. I'm shooting for a ceiling height of about 8'6" to the bottom of the timbers and she's up in the air about bars on the windows. They will be drop-down windows and probably won't be open all the time.

I'm TOTALLY new to the whole horse barn thing so any feedback would be great.

Josh

[Rooster]

Josh,

I did some thinking and came up with:

Single story /one level (no loft)
18 x 42ft
Two 12 x 12 horse stalls
One 12 x 12 stall for hay and feed storage
One 6 x 12 tack stall
Continuous Indoor Aisle (6ft wide) with sliding doors on both endwalls, connecting all interior stalls.


 

Additional options:
Side by side sliding windows with screens on south facing sidewall along interior aisle.
Sliding doors on all stalls, with option to have sliding stall doors on North side of stalls.

The advantages to having it all be one level is that you never have to climb up to store hay, or to throw it down for feeding.  Someday you or your wife might not be able to climb ladders, and you don't want to dread doing chores. Another advantage is that you don't have to build the loft floor system...just make the building longer, instead of taller.  Having a stall for hay also keeps your tack room cleaner. I also recommend putting a ceiling or liner in the tack room, to control dusk and critters.

The aisle will help with air flow in the summer months, let you feed , muck, and groom all inside during the winter months. It is also a nice place to cross tie for the farrier or vet.

Just throwing it out there.

Rooster

[Jim_Rogers]

I've got a busy day here at the sawmill as I was rained out most of yesterday. And I need to make up some time. I have customers coming wanting some lumber that I don't have cut yet.
I can't spend time right now on my comments on these ideas.
I'll think about them while I'm sawing and will post later on today.

Jim Rogers

[jPell]

No worries at all, Jim. Hope you have fun on your mill. I didn't get to run mine today but there's always tomorrow.

Rooster. I don't think I'm going to get that elaborate with this project. Instead of the isle, I think a nice overhang with posts would be nice. I do like your idea for the ground level hay storage though. I was just going to build a designated area for her in the tack room for the open bales but ground level storage would be nice. Perhaps putting that next to the tack room would work out good for the floor construction, no? The stalls are going to be bare ground with rubber mats.

[Jim_Rogers]

Josh:
Thanks for the information you have posted.

I'll work on it some and put up something that may look like what you want.

Two things, you mentioned a dirt floor with rubber mats for the two horse stalls.

Will you have a full foundation around the perimeter of the barn?

And if you could just for my information, what is the size of these hay bales? length, width and height?

I do understand what Rooster is saying about ground storage.
But with loft storage you can put a ladder in the tack room to access the loft and have two trap doors in the floor for dropping down parts of bales right into the stalls. And if you figure the spots right you can drop them right into an area where the horse can eat from. I'm sure they have such things, I just don't know what they are called. But I have seen the trap door thing before.

Jim Rogers

[Jim_Rogers]

Updated floor plan see attached for download.

[jPell]

Hey, Jim. I'm going to try to get away without setting a foundation. I'll have treated posts set in the ground below frost line (pretty much like sonotubes). As far as the bales, they average about 15x20x36. That's a little on the larger side but again, planning for worst case.

That's pretty much what I was originally planning on doing with the hay loft, Jim. Most hay lofts that I've seen have been upper level (not that that matters much). The more I think of it, the more I think I'll go that route. Ground level sounds great but I don't know. Plus I think it would look better. IMO.

Great floor plan by the way!! I was thinking... instead of a 2ish foot overhang on the south wall, what if I come off the eave purlin with a lower angle roof with additional posts? Say like 6 feet out. She will be able to set up cross ties out there. As you can tell, I'm still tossing around ideas and nothing is set in stone yet.

[MHineman]

  I have horses too.  I like the posts rather than foundation.  I think you have better drainage.  Don't hesitate to install tiles under the stalls.

  I also prefer a loft for hay, but it is nice to have enough room at ground level for a few bales if needed.

  I'd recommend the tack room be as tight to dust and critters as possible.  I would not store or move any hay through it.  I even prefer to store the grain in metal barrels in the loft to avoid the chance of the horses ever getting into the grain.  Getting too much grain can be a big vet bill... if you're lucky.

  You might consider making the building with a shed roof for now and sloping to the north.  Then later you can build the larger building you may decide you need to the south.  That would make another row of stalls and a 8 to 12 foot aisleway.  The opposite 6 foot space could be more tack or for bedding such as sawdust.

  My barn has 6 feet of the loft floor above the aisleway cut back to allow the truck with hay to back into the barn for unloading.

  I had a barn where we did not have good drainage.  I had 2 foot overhang at the eaves and 4 foot overhang on the gable end.  The doors were at the gable end and gave us a few feet with little to no mud.

[Jim_Rogers]

Ok, well now we see we have some changes to consider.

I have updated the floor plan again to add the lower sloped roof and a series of post to hold up that exterior wall and it's plate. Of course it's called a wall but it doesn't have boards attached to make it a solid wall. It's an open wall.

Here is a view of this floor plan now:



Knowing that we're going to use a trap door to drop hay down from the overhead storage area, we have to have access to this area. One way, I would use, is a ladder in the tack room to access the hayloft. That way you don't have to access it from outside or from inside a stall. I would prefer the ladder to be on the wall in bent 3 but there is a window there, so I put it on bent 4. You would climb the ladder and step onto the loft walkway.
This loft walkway will have to be kept clear of hay so that you can walk to each stall's trap door and open it so you can drop down some hay to the stall below.
These three hatches or trap doors and the walkway aisle will effect the amount of hay that can be stored in the hayloft. And they will effect the location of the floor joists as we have to space the joists wide enough for the trap door hatchway as well.

If after the client, and his wife, reviews these ideas we can work on sizing the joists and then the tie beam to hold up the joist. And work our way to the size of the posts to hold up the tie beams.

It's a long road to get to the answer of one of the first questions about post sizing but you have to consider lots of things (variables) and take them all into consideration.

Here is the hayloft floor plan:



Both have been attached for the client to download and make notes on for future use and review.

Jim Rogers

[Brad_bb]

My 2  cents:

Isn't the point of storing hay in a loft to reduce mice/ rats and their droppings being in the feed hay?

A dirt stall floor will hold the horse's urine.  Not good longterm for the horses feet.  If you get any mud or urine soaked mud, real trouble for the horses feet.  Shouldn't you have a concrete floor(with rubber mats) that is contoured for drainage, maybe into a grated drain trench on the outside of the stall.  This will also make it much easier to hose out/clean.  You need to protect the horse's feet from bacterial infection.

I think the idea of a closed and clean tackroom is a good idea.

Consider having a boot cleaning station and the ability to clean tack.  The bit must be cleaned before being put away.

I like Rooster's extra stall, but you can have it totally open, and use it to brush the hose out and pick the feet before saddling.  You can also use it when you need to give the horse a good bath(when it 's not too cold).  In other words, use it as a wash/cleaning/saddling open stall.


 

Google "horse wash stall" and click on images.  There are pics of some great examples of stall designs and wash stall designs.

[jPell]

Jim, that looks awesome.

Also, (I think  ;)) I've settled on the hay up in the loft. A ladder in the tack room would be great. The window on bent 3 can be moved. Like you, I would prefer to have the ladder there.

Brad, I'm actually planning on a good dirt base topped with a few inches of clay and rubber mats on top of that. I really don't want to put concrete in the ground just in case she decides to move the location of the barn in the future. Originally, we were up in the air about which side of the house to have it on. Which is another reason why I don't want to go super elaborate with this building. I wouldn't be surprised if years down the road, this one gets sold and a bigger and better one is built. This is my wife's first horse and barn (not to mention my first timber frame project) and I'm sure she'll be coming up with things she'd like to change on a regular basis until she finds what suits her.

[Rooster]

Josh,

If you are going to be feeding hay directly from the loft through the trap doors, will there be wall mounted cage/basket mangers below the trap doors to keep the hay off of the ground or stall floor?  Horses normally don't "mess" where they eat...but if the horse messes right below the trap door before you have a chance to feed then the hay will they get "messed up". 

If you tossed the hay out a small door on the side wall, under the porch roof so that the hay fell to the somewhat clean ground, then you can bring it into the stalls and place it into a manger or a hanging hay feed net.

I wouldn't be surprised if years down the road, this one gets sold and a bigger and better one is built. This is my wife's first horse and barn (not to mention my first timber frame project) and I'm sure she'll be coming up with things she'd like to change on a regular basis until she finds what suits her.

If you are pretty sure that things might change in the near future, maybe you could build a large run-in shelter with a loft above on skids/sills.  This could be timber-framed and pulled to another location or easily sold when a more permenant structure is needed... and if you only have one horse, then the tack could be kept in the garage and transported on a custom wagon.

The following link is a similar shed from a TFG forum member.

http://forums.tfguild.net/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=24689&page=1

[jPell]

Rooster, I'm not sure what she'll be doing for feeding in the stall but I just figured she could toss it down from above and when she goes back down, she can place it into whatever they will be eating out of.

If you are pretty sure that things might change in the near future, maybe you could build a large run-in shelter with a loft above on skids/sills.  This could be timber-framed and pulled to another location or easily sold when a more permenant structure is needed... and if you only have one horse, then the tack could be kept in the garage and transported on a custom wagon.

I wouldn't necessarily say I'm "pretty sure", I just wouldn't be surprised by a wanted change. And honestly, I don't think I could let it happen in the NEAR future. I need other buildings up first. We originally talked about a run-in but she has decided she wants a four sided shelter that she can close them up in at night if needed.

[Jim_Rogers]

Now lets look at what the barn may look like when all done.

South east view:



South west view:



Front elevation:



Back or north elevation:



West side:



East side:



The views are attached as a pdf for the client to download and review.

Once this design is approved we can move forward to placing a frame inside the shell so that it all fits right.

Jim Rogers

PS. the front lower roof is a 5/12 pitch. In creating the elevation views somehow the door got lost and I had to put in another on. Also, I moved up the east loft window to a better position once I view it from the end.

The two tack room windows are a standard 2' x2' sash that can be made to swing open, either out or in on one side or the other or the bottom. It all depends on whether or not they buy already made windows or just sashes and create their own jambs and other parts.

[jPell]

Wow, man. Jeepers, you must be a professional or something.  ;) Looks great!! One question for everyone's opinion, does it look too tall for its 12 foot depth? Wondering if I should shorten the hay loft knee walls a bit. Or maybe decrease the roof pitch a little (or both).

My wife has been pestering me about what the barn is going to look like. She knows the rough layout but I'm trying to surprise her with the final look. I just may have to show her these, though. She's gonna be so excited!!!

Jim, I can't thank you enough for your help here. I have a tremendous amount to learn during this project but you make it seem within reach.

[Jim_Rogers]

Well, it maybe out of proportion a little.

When I'm designing a frame for a client, who is going to mill his own timbers, I always ask, what is the longest piece of timber you can mill?

We don't want to design a 18' wide barn if you can only mill a 16' timber. If we did you'd have to scarf all the tie beams to make the width.

So, you originally said "your timbers," so I assumed you were going to mill your own with your own sawmill. But I just re-read you original post and you didn't say you had a sawmill.

Then, when I have a client who is going to "buy" their own timbers, I ask: "what is the longest timber you can buy?" Now I know you can get Douglas fir timbers sometimes 30 and 40 feet long, shipped in from the west coast. But is that something you want to buy?

If you have a local mill or your own mill then we can make the width of the barn the same length of the longest "tie beam" you can buy or mill.

If you have a short mill like mine, only 16' then we could make it a wider barn. Or if you're going to buy timbers and they cost more when they are over 16' we may want to stay with something like that so your costs don't skyrocket with making things "look right".....

Just all some things to consider.

I'm doing this for you, all of you, for an example to show anyone and everyone how a frame design progresses from ideas to paper.

It will be helpful to all who read it and I'm sure many will.

Jim Rogers

PS. the reason why I pressed you for the size of the hay bales was so that when we get going a bit more into it, I can place them into the loft, by drawing them in my professional timber frame cad drawing program and see if the number you want to store up there will fit. Remember we took away a lot of floor space with the loft walkway and trap doors. And we don't have a lot of head room in that loft right now. We'll just have to see as time goes on.

[jPell]

Jim, I do have my own mill and will be milling my own pine timbers. I can mill up to 18'. I can't see making the stalls 18' deep so we should be fine there.

[MHineman]

One question for everyone's opinion, does it look too tall for its 12 foot depth? Wondering if I should shorten the hay loft knee walls a bit. Or maybe decrease the roof pitch a little (or both).

  Even though the proportions seem a little different from the end elevation than you typically have, I would not change it.  If you lowered the knee walls you would not have enough hay storage.

  The majority of the time it will be seen as you approach it from the front.  The front lower roof should break up the tall walls. 

  The barn I built several years ago is a pole structure with salvaged beams on top of the poles.  The knee walls are about 4 feet and the roof is a 12/12 pitch.  It is just about right to be able to reach the sides and bang my head on the rafters only on a rare occasion.

  My barn is 30' long by 20' wide.  The ground floor has 3 10 x 10 stalls and the other half is an aisleway.  The loft floor is cut back 6' by the 10' side to middle at the main sliding door.  I store 400 bales of hay without any trouble.

  I don't need the loft walkway since I reach the stalls from the ground floor aisleway.

  I'm not sure if I did hear where you are located.  When is cold and wet here (many days Nov - April) I really appreciate the aisleway. 

[jPell]

Hi MH, I'm in New Hampshire. We can get some pretty serious snow/cold up here but for the most part it isn't too bad for too long.

Maybe in the future I could add a lean-to off the north wall for implements or something.

400 bales. Wow, that's a lot of hay. How many horses do you have?