"One Stroke Chain"

[Full Chisel]

When I hone out dull chains, I set one side for angle and grinding depth. Then I mike a tooth and set up the other side's cutters grinding depth. This is textbook balanced chain. After I sharpen several chains, I switch wheels and do the rakers. Verified with a flexible rule and feeler gauge. They still need a light touch with the file.

Saw chain needs to be reworked so a grinder can ride across each depth gauge and set its clearance in the same pass as you sharpen each tooth. I think it can be done. If you like the status quo, that's cool. If you wonder about ideas like this or have some ideas, let's talk about it.

I'd like to find someone here with some autocad background who would help draw a visualization.

[beenthere]

I'm going to stick with two strokes per tooth. Works for me after each tank of fuel. That is if I don't get into the dirt which doesn't happen very often. 8)

[T Welsh]

Full Chisel, Set up with a bench grinder is critical. I do the same when I start a chain, I find the most damaged cutter and measure it with a caliper and set the machine to clear the cutter and then grind lightly until the chain is done. Then I check to see if right and left side cutters match in length. I have found a trick that works when I grind down the depth gauges. I take a sharpie and set a gauge on top of the rakers and mark each raker with the sharpie, once all rakers are marked I take the chain to a bench grinder and grind them down until the marks are gone. its faster than doing it on the chain grinder and by doing them by hand. Tim

[nmurph]

If you are not increasing the raker depth as you file the cutter back, you are not maintaining the factory 6° angle and are not maximizing the chain set-up.

[Al_Smith]

In a perfect world each and every cutter tooth on a chain will be the exact same length with all depth gauges the same .

However in the real world they usually vary a little and you won't see that much difference in how it cuts .

[Full Chisel]

If you are not increasing the raker depth as you file the cutter back, you are not maintaining the factory 6° angle and are not maximizing the chain set-up.

I've not filed cutters on saw chain for 20 years. I always use a grinder with depth stop.

In a perfect world each and every cutter tooth on a chain will be the exact same length with all depth gauges the same .
However in the real world they usually vary a little and you won't see that much difference in how it cuts .

In my real world, I use a micrometer; left and right side bits are set the same. If there is some kind of problem, like a damaged tooth, I correct that.

When I hone out dull chains, I set one side for angle and grinding depth. Then I mike a tooth and set up the other side's cutters grinding depth. This is textbook balanced chain. After I sharpen several chains, I switch wheels and do the rakers. Verified with a flexible rule and feeler gauge. They still need a light touch with the file.

Saw chain needs to be reworked so a grinder can ride across each depth gauge and set its clearance in the same pass as you sharpen each tooth. I think it can be done. If you like the status quo, that's cool. If you wonder about ideas like this or have some ideas, let's talk about it.

I'd like to find someone here with some autocad background who would help draw a visualization.

I want to discuss a new chain design.  Round chisel shape with D-G orientation that facilitates simultaneous grinding with the bits.

[Al_Smith]

Well maybe so if a person is a watch maker or a tool and die maker with time on your hands .

You might get a leg up being so precise or not .In the over all scheme of things it probabley doesn't make that much difference but it's a good topic of debate if nothing else . ;)

Please elaborate if you would .Do you store your precision ground super duper sharpened chains in a velvet lined case after you dress them or hang them on a nail like 95 percent of us .

[Buck]

Interesting. FC, I would like to run one of your resharps against mine. I understand what your saying but my only comparison is brand new against my work.

[Full Chisel]

Well maybe so if a person is a watch maker or a tool and die maker with time on your hands .
You might get a leg up being so precise or not .In the over all scheme of things it probabley doesn't make that much difference but it's a good topic of debate if nothing else . ;)
Please elaborate if you would .Do you store your precision ground super duper sharpened chains in a velvet lined case after you dress them or hang them on a nail like 95 percent of us .

If you are living, you have exactly the same amount of time on your hands as everybody else--24 hours each day. What you do from there is based solely on choices; the ones you have made and the ones you make now. Do you also see this fact as a gray area or topic of debate?

I hang sharp chains on plastic coated hooks by driver count with the cutters facing the same way as they are installed on the bar. When you do things right the first time, you end up with more time to do something else. I don't do a lot of things like 95% of people. When you get focused there really isn't a big picture only light at the end of the tunnel. Save the debate for another time.

[Full Chisel]

Interesting. FC, I would like to run one of your resharps against mine. I understand what your saying but my only comparison is brand new against my work.

Ditto. But if I came to Louisiana, I'd probably want to stay.

[Full Chisel]

Let's not get sidetracked here. Oregon has made that system where you can put a stone on the end of the bar with a spring loaded mechanism. Light feed pressure with light throttle sharpens the chain, (and I suppose the rakers.) I saw the chain at a farm store. It has limitations.

I think the cutter/gauge links can be oriented so the gauge clearance can be maintained during grinding. It can be done better, faster than it is done now. Nothing is so good it can't be improved.

[Al_Smith]

  When you get focused there really isn't a big picture only light at the end of the tunnel. Save the debate for another time.

Well now come on Chisel fess up now ,who's debating what .
You start up like the cock of the walk with all this stuff and expect us all to swallow it hook line and sinker and we know better .What are we ,you think a bunch of idiots that have never sharpened a chain or something ?

Okay it's nice you are so praticular with your chains .

Here's how that would go .While you are prepairing a chain to be sharpened with all the cleansing methods the rest of us will have cut our first cord of wood .Filing with our lowly dollar and a quarter file .

By the time you set up your grinder and maybe started on the first chain the rest of us will have cut our second cord .By the time you've finished the second chain we have split and stacked said two cords of wood ,put the saw away and be sitting on our back deck or patio enjoying a beverage .

Now who's ahead of the game  :D 8)

[Full Chisel]

  When you get focused there really isn't a big picture only light at the end of the tunnel. Save the debate for another time.

Well now come on Chisel fess up now ,who's debating what .
You start up like the cock of the walk with all this stuff and expect us all to swallow it hook line and sinker and we know better .What are we ,you think a bunch of idiots that have never sharpened a chain or something ?

Okay it's nice you are so praticular with your chains .

Here's how that would go .While you are prepairing a chain to be sharpened with all the cleansing methods the rest of us will have cut our first cord of wood .Filing with our lowly dollar and a quarter file .

By the time you set up your grinder and maybe started on the first chain the rest of us will have cut our second cord .By the time you've finished the second chain we have split and stacked said two cords of wood ,put the saw away and be sitting on our back deck or patio enjoying a beverage .

Now who's ahead of the game  :D 8)

You are ahead of the game, Al.  Like 4052 posts ahead. This was my first thread here. I won't ever post another. I cut trees for a living.

[Buck]

Interesting. FC, I would like to run one of your resharps against mine. I understand what your saying but my only comparison is brand new against my work.

Ditto. But if I came to Louisiana, I'd probably want to stay.

I'd enjoy the visit

[1270d]

I agree with full chisel here.  He s refering to professional faller/chainsawyer work, not firewooding.  Many people can file an excellent chaiin, but some of us choose to grind for various reasons.
1 much faster to change a loop in the woods vs filing.
2 I can grind a chain with much more precision at home, and faster, than filing. (The precision may not effect cut speed as much as operator fatigue.  A perfect chain is smooth as butter. 
3 difficult to square file, the triangle files dull quickly
4 we like to do it this way :). 

I would like to see a cutter design like you suggest. We use a seperate machine that custom tailors each raker/cutter set

[beenthere]

Well Al, that is just a bit exaggerated, but I do agree with your analysis.  ;D

[lumberjack48]

I fell timber 30 yrs, hand filed 30 yrs, my saws cut like a razor blade. I carried the file in my pocket, when falling for two skidders you have to be on the ball. If i lost the edge on the chain, I'd drop an file, takes about 60 to 90 seconds to put the edge back on.
You can't get much more professional when comes to felling an running saw, this was my life. I have fell one million + trees.
All this precision is fun to play with, but with a professional hand filer you wouldn't see any difference when it comes to speed.

I've always said if a guy uses a grinder he doesn't know how to hand file.
The way it was around here 30 yrs ago if you had to take your chains in to have them sharped you were a green horn or a farmer logger, just the way it was.

[Al_Smith]

Awe geeze Chisel you don't have to get in a huff about it now .

It's a forum ,people have different opinions  on things and they express them which is why it's called a forum .

You can't expect to come up with some controversial  method of doing things and not get a comment .Not everyone sees things the way you do .

Cutting trees for a living has not one thing to do with sharpening a chain .While perhaps many pro loggers who use square ground chain do in fact grind them I'd subject that at least as many use round chisel and file it .On that I'd also submit that I can file a round ground as well as you can grind it .That's not boasting just a plain old statement of facts . ;D---Lighten up now okay ,it's just a forum . ;)

[1270d]

Whew.  Hot button huh.  Lol. Fords are better than chevy s.  ;)

[Full Chisel]

Al_Smith went to the dark side of the moon. I didn't realize this forum had an ignore function. Good software.

LJ48, if you could fall 25 trees on one chain and sharpen one in 90 seconds, by the time you cut one million trees the way you did in your career, you spent 1000 hours on your knees in the woods with a file. In 1000 hours, on my setup I can put up 6000 precise 36" loops of shiny blue rapid super with any custom depth gauge clearance I want. If this is the farmer greenhorns, I'm still doin' it on a machine. (In a lighted climate controlled shop with some Conway Twitty jammin'.)

File vs. Grinder was done beat to death.

Back to business. I've been thinking about this for a long time. You can fabricate the grinding wheel to adapt to the chain we presently have available. I considered a grinder made with tools instead of wheels that would do bits with one tool then its raker with another. This would work good too. It can also be set up with water lasers to do the cutting. No problem, there--it's all programing , fabrication and Micrologistics. As much as I'd love to have a CNC machine to make the world's sharpest chain from dull chain, I'm looking for the like-minded guys out there who want to discuss a new breed of chain. We build it from the ground up. And the product will probably end up having the links "milled" by water laser.

[beenthere]

"water laser" ??
That yet to be invented?
Has a good ring to it, but wondering just what it is.

[Al_Smith]

 :D I'll see your ignore and raise you one . 8)

[Full Chisel]

"water laser" ??
That yet to be invented?
Has a good ring to it, but wondering just what it is.

Google it. I used to calibrate them for Cat.

[tyb525]

C'mon Al, we've been through this before. He wants to do it the way he wants to do it. He didn't ask you if you thought it was right.

As I have said before, who else on this forum is nitpicking and belittling everything you do in your life? You are free to do what you want the way you want to do it. So is he.

It is one thing to express your opinion, but it's another thing to try and force it onto someone else, as if their way is no good compared to yours.


Back to the thread, I am interested in Chisel's idea. I'm all for improving chain sharpening 8)

[tyb525]

"water laser" ??
That yet to be invented?
Has a good ring to it, but wondering just what it is.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=+water+laser

[1270d]

One of the local loggers has an automated grinding machine that does the whole chain in one single cycle.   It only round grinds and I suppose it only does a good job if its operated well.   Cost north of twenty grand I've heard so not for the casual user.   

I've always wondered why there isn't a grinding wheel with the cutting surface of a file.  Actually asked a rep for pferd and he didn't seem to know.

Would each cutter somehow be the raker for the next cutter?

Also, how about a stepped wheel with a shoulder that would hit the raker while grinding the cutter.  Maybe you mentioned that already

[HolmenTree]

I've not filed cutters on saw chain for 20 years. I always use a grinder with depth stop.
[/quote]



I'm trying to do the math here, a 36 yr old man is saying he has not filed a sawchain for 20 yrs :D
16 was the age I started falling timber professionally. And I got to say here on the plains  I would have to be changing many pre sharpened loops to keep my piecework production up.
Like most I round file right at the stump for a minute to keep the edge up. The only timber fallers that would be concerned of chisel bit chain would be the softwood fallers in big timber in the PNW.

[Dave VH]

I don't make my living with my chain saws, but I have made a some money with them.  I mostly use skill, mitre, and table saws.  I have pondered some new tooth designs for them.
  So Full Chisel, did you have a design in mind, or are you like me and looking at that thinking that there has to be a better way?
  Are you thinking something where every tooth is more uniform, or still an every other tooth stager (the standard)?  As long as a new design is begining to emerge here you might as well think outside the box. 
I'm not real good with a cad program, but I have gotten to do some cool designs in several different fields.  I even have my name on a patten.
  I have not looked very close at what is available in chains right now, but you got me thinking.
I look forward to seeing how this matures

[Full Chisel]

I'm in Tree Removal. Oak, Ash, Hickory--Maple. I log hardwoods occasionally and cut firewood constantly. All deciduous and often Osage Orange.

I own round files and raker files. I will bust them out on a job and polish out some teeth or tweak some rakers 'cause the Stihls do run good. If they want to eat, I give 'em a bigger bite. It's the kind of thing I might do when a guy on another crew would be having a smoke. It is more fair to say I never file chain out of necessity. Blah blah. Files are great in an emergency, but instead of gettin' loaded during a rainout or at night, I'm always getting ahead on sharp chain. At that rate the only thing emerging is gleaming incisors.

My Dad was a logger and always bought the best tools. He was also a superintendent at CAT and we cattle farmed and built storage buildings and bulldozed. Did I get to run a Komatsu swamp trak? Not 'til I was old enough to drive. I was on the business end of 044's and 066 Stihls blocking up hedgerows, bulldoze piles, tops and trees in the floors of ponds we were constructing. We are production oriented folk, and yes I was falling trees and gutting rebuilding, porting Stihls long before I was sixteen. My Dad is dead, but I still have his motivation.

[Full Chisel]

Back to the thread, I am interested in Chisel's idea. I'm all for improving chain sharpening.

Thanks, we're gonna do that.

[Full Chisel]

I don't make my living with my chain saws, but I have made a some money with them.  I mostly use skill, mitre, and table saws.  I have pondered some new tooth designs for them.
  So Full Chisel, did you have a design in mind, or are you like me and looking at that thinking that there has to be a better way?
  Are you thinking something where every tooth is more uniform, or still an every other tooth stager (the standard)?  As long as a new design is begining to emerge here you might as well think outside the box. 
I'm not real good with a cad program, but I have gotten to do some cool designs in several different fields.  I even have my name on a patten.
  I have not looked very close at what is available in chains right now, but you got me thinking.
I look forward to seeing how this matures

You hit the main points. Thanks for being interested. I'm looking around on the net to see if someone has done a good animation of standard types of chain cutting wood. Like a slo mo depiction of the physics involved. Out side the box, man. Ivory Soap got famous for its ability to float. Did you know that it was a total accident? I hope the best minds on the site crash the gate here. We'll see daylight soon. And have a good laugh or two!

[shelbycharger400]

im not a professional, but i can say i have dropped a few hundred trees   well   feb-march i dropped over 400 at one farm.

i bring 2 -3 saws with when i go.  its faster to grab another saw than it is to horse around and change a chain in the field.   i bring 2 or 3 additional chains when i go as well.  usually i can get 2 or 3 truckloads cut to firewood length  on a sharpening.  longest i have gone on a brand new chain was about 4 or 5 truckloads,  im runnin oregon chain.  i should upgrade to the dirty condition chain, but i do like full chissel, it cuts fast and smooth.   i sharpen with a dremmel.  this sand round here plays hard on the chain, so i have about 4 or 5 chains to sharpen now on a grinder to make them work right.   but then again i have cut 15 to 20 chords with them , i lost track, lots and lots here, and at the farm, and still some out in the field treeline.. with no place to put any right now. lol. wood commin out the tail pipe.

to "one file"  would have to have a broach setup,  good luck with that, their a pta in anything other than an arbor press.  currently only thing best yet to the grinder is id like to have a water cooled grinder.  or the best is a lazer shaper.. way out of all of our price range.    realisticly a used surface grinder is around 4 grand,  find some thin blades would be optimus prime that will fit the shaft.  set a fixture on the magnetic chuck, and let er buck.             did you know, on ALL grinders that have wheels not pinned,  they change their essentric everytime you start and stop them.   its 4-8 thousanths , sometimes a bit more,  ive proved it out when i was surface grinding a mold plate i was making  :-[

[Full Chisel]

Did you guys read what Shelby Charger just said? There is one problem right there. If the grinding wheel is going eccentric between starts that's an issue. It is good that it is getting re-calibrated between l and r cutters. Charger you sound like a machinist, we need you. This is the kind of guys I was hopin' to find. Any body with skills/ideas, jump aboard. Thanks. I'll try to get back on tomorrow night.

[JohnG28]

Not trying to rain on this here or be negative, but how would one maintain a laser cut chain? From the sounds of this here there would be no practical way to maintain this in the field, which would make an expensive product that would have a small base to market to. That alone takes the practical side out. The majority of people have been using what there is for a long time because it works, not because its all there ever was. JMO. I do appreciate your enthusiasm and creativity all the same.

[Full Chisel]

Not trying to rain on this here or be negative, but how would one maintain a laser cut chain? From the sounds of this here there would be no practical way to maintain this in the field, which would make an expensive product that would have a small base to market to. That alone takes the practical side out. The majority of people have been using what there is for a long time because it works, not because its all there ever was. JMO. I do appreciate your enthusiasm and creativity all the same.

Prototypes are always expensive, except in this case, we are gonna know exactly what we're gonna do beforehand. The purpose is to do each side in one drop of the grinder; tooth and depth gauge. We may have to dissect that Oregon automatic deal a bit. If this has to be field serviceable, we'll work that in. That's not the issue now. Brainstorm People!! Don't give me reasons why I can't do it. Give me ways that I can. Like the best mystery novels, sometimes the author knows how the ending is--he has to go back and write the story. We work together, and we can nail it. Course who cares?! Let's have some fun .

Hey Shelby Charger, what is a broach setup?

[lumberjack48]

Full Chisel i wish i could jump up out of this wheelchair for one day. I would love to spend it strip cutting against you one day, it would be a fun day.

I've been logging by dirt roads where the Jack pine bark is full of dirt. I'll bet i filed 30+ times a day to keep an edge on, and hit the rakers on coffee breaks [ I cut rakers with a File-O-Plate]. I was still able to keep up with the skidders.

In good clean Aspen maybe i could tip 100 to 400 trees with out filing. The file was in my pocket, i didn't have time to go back to the pickup.

Best of luck with your chain design. No matter how good it is theres always a better way. This has been my philosophy all though life, it got me to be one of the best piece cutters at 16 yrs old. I used to double strip cut, this cut down on carrying wood to far and dragging tops back in your strip. If trees are 6 sticks tall why have a strip 3 sticks wide. My farther used to get upset with me, i never stayed in the box, i was always trying something different.

You got me thinking, I'll have to get the pencil out.

[Full Chisel]

One of the local loggers has an automated grinding machine that does the whole chain in one single cycle.   It only round grinds and I suppose it only does a good job if its operated well.   Cost north of twenty grand I've heard so not for the casual user.   

I've always wondered why there isn't a grinding wheel with the cutting surface of a file.  Actually asked a rep for pferd and he didn't seem to know.

Would each cutter somehow be the raker for the next cutter?

Also, how about a stepped wheel with a shoulder that would hit the raker while grinding the cutter.  Maybe you mentioned that already

There is some really good automatic sharpeners. I think the Logosol  and DinoSharp cost quite a bit less than that but that one Franzen probably is Twenty thousand. If you had a chain that let the raker lower when you hit the tooth, it would even simplify the design of the auto sharpener, and  also would be easier to file. If each tooth was the gauge for the next tooth, this would be solved. I'm not saying that's impossible. If the cutters were more oriented toward the centerline and acted as a scoop, who knows? I like the concept of a stepped wheel, too. You are adding good ideas. If you have one throw it in there. If anyone comes across a good simulation on YouTube or any thing post it.

[Full Chisel]

If you are not increasing the raker depth as you file the cutter back, you are not maintaining the factory 6° angle and are not maximizing the chain set-up.

Explain this a little if you have time. Six degrees from what? Are you saying when you file the cutter, the raker is getting lowered by the round file? I would like to see that demonstrated. In the Forestry Forum Knowledge Base it says Carlton has a depiction on their website called, "How a Chain Cuts," the link is broken. I went there and looked for it on the Carlton site. So far, nada. We are making progress, though. I'll PM some people here and see if there's an archive. Maybe one of the mods is following this thread and can tell us.

[Full Chisel]

http://www.mscsoftware.com/success/details.cfm?Q=286&sid=315

Here is what Oregon uses to run prototype designs digitally.

[John Mc]

Carlton Chain Saw book with a good description of how a chain cuts - see attached.

This was posted on the web for some time, and available for free download. I don't see any restrictions on use or distribution noted in it, so I'm guessing it's OK to post.

[barbender]

I just spent a couple of sentences in another thread telling someone that they weren't getting their throat jumped down (with Al Smith in mind) then I look at this thread, and what is Al doing? This forum encourages open discussion of new ideas and better ways of doing things, as far as I can tell. Al's posts here are a stark contrast to that. I hand file myself, it is simpler for me for the amount of cutting I do. If I were in a situation where I damaged more chain, a grinder would definitely be in order. Now harvester chain gets damaged quite often, if someone wants to hand file that, be my guest. If chain could be designed in a way that was more conducive to automatic machine sharpening it would be a definite plus. Imagine the pain it would be if you had to do the same amount of set up on bandsaw blades as you did sawchain.

[shelbycharger400]

a broach is used to cut a specified grove in a step formation.  their is several types
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broaching_(metalworking)

not shure a one step grind is going to work out ,  as cutting soft wood or hard wood,  or frozen wood would and usually requires a different cut to cut at optimum speeds.

Yes i have done some machining,  now here is the kicker, if I or WE here design this new shaper/grinder, where dose this go with you?  also where or what will this do for us here on the forum .  I  appreciate help here from members, and let others what i do know.

[John Mc]

I don't see Al's posts as jumping down anyone's throat. To me, he's just expressing a different opinion. Yeah, he's blunt with his views, and occasionally might be able to employ a little more tact, but he's not trying to tell everyone else that his way is the only way.

If anything, Al seems to be the one getting jumped on here. He's getting ignored for having the audacity to disagree with someone's post?

I'm happy to say I've never put anyone on my ignore list, despite the fact that I may disagree (sometimes strongly) with some of the opinions posted here. There is something to learn by considering opinions different than your own.  What works for one person, in one situation, may not be appropriate for someone else.  That's one of the things I like about this site -- most of the time, we can enjoy a civil discussion and evaluation of a variety of opinions. That does break down at times - usually when someone feels they've got to "out-macho" someone else who disagreed with them.  (And there does seem to be a bit more of that going on lately)  Fortunately, Jeff generally steps in before things get out of hand.

[Al_Smith]

Don't get all upset about it now ,I'm done with it .

I do get a little terse at times but no more so than some I might point out .

On that I could care less what or how anyone sharpens a chain .That's their business .I do care when someone implies some of us old timers that were filing chains before they were  even a twinkle in the old mans eyes talks down to us .

I'm done with it now please continue on I won't reply to this thread again .Thank you . ;)

[Full Chisel]

Thanks John Mc, for finding the Carlton Info. When I first started screwing with Holleys and Rochester Quadrajet, The first thing that struck me was the guys that were afraid to touch a carburetor. They would discourage you at every turn. But if you build it , it will run. I rebuilt a Holley 600 really I should say, I built it from various carcasses and put in a kit. I put it on and got it runnin'. I took my truck up to a friend of my Dad who is a superior mechanic. I asked him which idle mixture screw he thought I should adjust first. He replied, "That's like asking a bird which wing it would rather fly on."  I never forget when someone shows me a better way.

[Full Chisel]

a broach is used to cut a specified grove in a step formation.  their is several types
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broaching_(metalworking)

not shure a one step grind is going to work out ,  as cutting soft wood or hard wood,  or frozen wood would and usually requires a different cut to cut at optimum speeds.

Yes i have done some machining,  now here is the kicker, if I or WE here design this new shaper/grinder, where dose this go with you?  also where or what will this do for us here on the forum .  I  appreciate help here from members, and let others what i do know.

I'm impressed with the diverse background you can find on an internet forum. Especially, when it gets down to homegrown skills that are many of our second nature. You burn wood, it heats your house. To many of the people who think milk comes in a jug from a factory and eggs come in a carton, we are bumpkins---someone who slows down traffic trying to get to another hayfield. What comes from our lifestyle is a necessity to develop skill --to survive. I appreciate the knowledge that is available which guys are willing to share.  If we can use the collaborative effort of members here to show that there is a better way, it elevates us all. Each perspective gives us a better view. I'm learning here already.

[AdkStihl]

I prefer a hand filed chain over a ground chain anyday!
Whats up Al  ???

[John Mc]

Glad I could help with the old Carlton book. I hope it was what you were looking for. I ran across it years ago, and for whatever reason, decided to save it.

[Full Chisel]

I prefer a hand filed chain over a ground chain anyday!

I prefer steak over beer and candy.

[Full Chisel]

Glad I could help with the old Carlton book. I hope it was what you were looking for. I ran across it years ago, and for whatever reason, decided to save it.

Thanks, Mc. The chain pulls away from the bar and feeds through the wood in a rocking motion. There is a ton of good stuff in that resource. I'm glad you saved it.

[bill m]

Glad I could help with the old Carlton book. I hope it was what you were looking for. I ran across it years ago, and for whatever reason, decided to save it.

Thanks, Mc. The chain pulls away from the bar and feeds through the wood in a rocking motion. There is a ton of good stuff in that resource. I'm glad you saved it.

I am not sure how old that book is but I saw that in a video from Tilton Equipment back in the late 1980s.

[Full Chisel]

I'm having trouble getting logged in here last two days. Thanks Bill M. I'm looking for that vid. I talk to their rep once in awhile. His desk is so cluttered, that videotape from  the eighties is probably still on it! I'm talking to a machinist who likes specializing in tricky stuff. He built a gearbox in his own shop for a turbine engined helicopter and flies in it. He also built a stumpgrinder you will not believe. When I go there, I'll see if I can get some pictures or a video of that.  Anyhow he is a great machinist so I'll see if I can get him interested and we'll see what we can do.   

[Full Chisel]

Experimenting with the files this week. It never occurred to me to use the next size up file on a given chain size.  7/32 on 3/8 chain? Very interesting. I like it. Opens it up a "bit".

Ja, if you are green you are growing. New tricks for old dawg.

[lumberjack48]

When filing 3/8 full chisel i use 5/32 file, theres no reason to do all that filing when  only the top edge of the cutter needs to be sharp.

It takes a little practice to get the right depth and ect, but it cuts like razor when you do. I used a 5/32 file about the last 7 yrs i logged and anybody who seen it cut asked, even my father wanted to know how it could cut so fast.

[Full Chisel]

When filing 3/8 full chisel i use 5/32 file, theres no reason to do all that filing when  only the top edge of the cutter needs to be sharp.

It takes a little practice to get the right depth and ect, but it cuts like razor when you do. I used a 5/32 file about the last 7 yrs i logged and anybody who seen it cut asked, even my father wanted to know how it could cut so fast.

Okey-Dokey. We'll give that a try, too. Completely open at this point. Different angles different lighting-all makes the picture better. I've got my machinist buddy working up some CAD images of the chain I'm describing.

48, you get that pencil sharp yet?

[JohnG28]

Experimenting with the files this week. It never occurred to me to use the next size up file on a given chain size.  7/32 on 3/8 chain? Very interesting. I like it. Opens it up a "bit".

Ja, if you are green you are growing. New tricks for old dawg.

What do you mean by the next size up? 7/32 and 13/64" are standard on a regular 3/8 chain. Lo pro 3/8 generally use 5/32". The chain pitch and file for that chain don't have a direct correlation as far as.I know. I prefer 13/64" on my regular 3/8 chains.

[Full Chisel]

Experimenting with the files this week. It never occurred to me to use the next size up file on a given chain size.  7/32 on 3/8 chain? Very interesting. I like it. Opens it up a "bit".

Ja, if you are green you are growing. New tricks for old dawg.

What do you mean by the next size up? 7/32 and 13/64" are standard on a regular 3/8 chain. Lo pro 3/8 generally use 5/32". The chain pitch and file for that chain don't have a direct correlation as far as.I know. I prefer 13/64" on my regular 3/8 chains.

Stihl recommends 13/64 file on 3/8 chain. On picco or "Lo-Pro" cutters it is 5/32. 7/32 is recommended for .404 pitch chain. They are directly correlated on the Stihl chart.

What I mean by the next size up is 7/32=14/64 (or the next chainsaw file size up from 13/64.) I'm learning all the time, my friend.

[JohnG28]

I understand what you were getting at. Stihl mainly recommends 13/64, I like it over a 7/32 regardless of the chain. Stihl I believe only recommends it on their chain, but I like the edge I get with it.

[Full Chisel]

I understand what you were getting at. Stihl mainly recommends 13/64, I like it over a 7/32 regardless of the chain. Stihl I believe only recommends it on their chain, but I like the edge I get with it.

Yep, fits right in the groove. Files are sweet and quiet. Good in locksmithing and tool maintenance. My wife sent me one baked inside a cake awhile back.

[lumberjack48]

I used a 7/32 file about 22 yrs, before switching to a 5/32 file, it was purely by accident. One day i was filing an all my 7/32 files were like welding rod, wore out. I had a 5/32 that i used on my boys little Johny, i thought this will have to work to finish the day. I filed up an gave it a try, i was fascinated how good it cut. I could see that i could put a nice little hook in the cutter, not to aggressive just right. In softwood i ran my rakers 40 thous., filing with a 5/32 file it pulled a smaller chip an this kept my chain speed up. I was very impressed with the results using a 5/32 file, never used a 7/32 again.
Worked the same in hardwood and frozen wood, but ran rakers 30 thous.

[HolmenTree]

I used a 7/32 file about 22 yrs, before switching to a 5/32 file, it was purely by accident. One day i was filing an all my 7/32 files were like welding rod, wore out. I had a 5/32 that i used on my boys little Johny, i thought this will have to work to finish the day. I filed up an gave it a try, i was fascinated how good it cut. I could see that i could put a nice little hook in the cutter, not to aggressive just right.

I have seen others do the same with good results lumberjack, especially back in the day when guys here on the plains used that small file in speed cutting contests at the local fair. Then in the late 1980s the winners started using the square file.

The only problem with that small file in the full size 3/8 chain is it leaves a ledge in the side plate like what a square chisel bit file does. You have to refile that ledge out of the gullet but leave a wee bit enough ledge to hold the file in place for the next touchup.
If the ledge is left in the gullet for the life of the chain, then the gullet will be too small and doesn't allow proper chip clearance and flow for the best cutting efficiency.

[Full Chisel]

. You have to refile that ledge out of the gullet but leave a wee bit enough ledge to hold the file in place for the next touchup.
If the ledge is left in the gullet for the life of the chain, then the gullet will be too small and doesn't allow proper chip clearance and flow for the best cutting efficiency.

With regards to round file, then what do you think about the 7/32" on 3/8" pitch chain? I liked the effect that had.

[HolmenTree]

I understand what you were getting at. Stihl mainly recommends 13/64, I like it over a 7/32 regardless of the chain. Stihl I believe only recommends it on their chain, but I like the edge I get with it.

Yes Stihl recommends the smaller 13/64 file on their harder to file "heavier chain" and Oregon recommends 7/32 on their easier to file "thinner chain".
Only Stihl recommends this smaller file because of the common complaint of their chains being tougher to file. The smaller diameter file eases thing up.

But looking at the older Stihl specs from as recent as the 1990s they recommended 7/32".
Thanks to the modern internet allowing endusers to handily compare apple and oranges over and over again,which in turn affects the sawchain companies market strategy.

[HolmenTree]

. You have to refile that ledge out of the gullet but leave a wee bit enough ledge to hold the file in place for the next touchup.
If the ledge is left in the gullet for the life of the chain, then the gullet will be too small and doesn't allow proper chip clearance and flow for the best cutting efficiency.

With regards to round file, then what do you think about the 7/32" on 3/8" pitch chain? I liked the effect that had.

I think my last post will best explain that Full Chisel. But my own opinion is I use the 7/32 file even on the Stihl chain and when the cutter is filed back to about half then I switch to the smaller 13/64.
Both Oregon 3/8 and 404  use the 7/32 file because both chains have the same side plate-gullet height profile, only difference is the .404 has a longer side plate with a slightly wider kerf top plates.[Stihl chain is no different].
Like I said earlier the 7/32 makes a optimol gullet size when the cutter size is largest when new.
On my 32" and longer 3/8 b/c saws I have filed them with the 1/4" file and found the chain cut real nice in big softwood. The only problem was when it was time to step down to the smaller file when the cutters got small it was a nuisence to "refit " the file into the much larger filed cutter.

[beenthere]

I use the 7/32" file on my new Stihl chain (3/8 33RS) and switch to the 13/64" file when the tooth length is about half gone. Have not found the 7/32 file difficult to use by hand.  Works for me.

[HolmenTree]

I use the 7/32" file on my new Stihl chain (3/8 33RS) and switch to the 13/64" file when the tooth length is about half gone. Have not found the 7/32 file difficult to use by hand.  Works for me.

I think and do the same beenthere. But like I said, over the last decade or so Stihl was forced to change their specs with the smaller file because of "hard filing" complaints.

Myself having filed Oregon and Stihl chain since the 1970s with the 7/32 I am used to it.
But now a days many chainsaw endusers weren't even born in the 70s yet.

[Full Chisel]

Yes Stihl recommends the smaller 13/64 file on their harder to file "heavier chain" and Oregon recommends 7/32 on their easier to file "thinner chain".
Only Stihl recommends this smaller file because of the common complaint of their chains being tougher to file. The smaller diameter file eases thing up.

I never heard any complaints about Stihl Chain. If they was to insist on filing, I can recommend a courser medium file. A fine file would take too much effort.  Stihl chain is made in Wil, Switzerland with the best steel available.

[Full Chisel]

I'm Onry.

.. The only problem was when it was time to step down to the smaller file when the cutters got small it was a nuisence to "refit " the file into the much larger filed cutter.

Sounds like the calling card of the electric chain grinder.

[lumberjack48]

I use the 7/32" file on my new Stihl chain (3/8 33RS) and switch to the 13/64" file when the tooth length is about half gone. Have not found the 7/32 file difficult to use by hand.  Works for me.

I never found the 7/32 fife difficult to use, i found that a 5/32 file was faster to file with and got a faster and smother cutting chain.

The electric grinder is fine to use with a 5/32 stone.

When filing a 3/8 full chisel chain with a 5/32 file, when the chain is 1/2 way gone i ran the 5/32 file over the ledge in front of the cutter a couple times. This way i never had a issue with it, i ran it until to many cutters  broke off.

I was using a 7/32 file in 1960 on a C9 Homelite cutting 3 to 4' White Pine. I was fully comfortable using it until i found a better way for me.

[Cut4fun]

Yes Stihl recommends the smaller 13/64 file on their harder to file "heavier chain" and Oregon recommends 7/32 on their easier to file "thinner chain".
Only Stihl recommends this smaller file because of the common complaint of their chains being tougher to file. The smaller diameter file eases thing up.

I never heard any complaints about Stihl Chain. If they was to insist on filing, I can recommend a courser medium file. A fine file would take too much effort.  Stihl chain is made in Wil, Switzerland with the best steel available.

Steel used to come out of Ohio a few years back. Now days I dont know.

[Full Chisel]

I never heard any complaints about Stihl Chain. If they was to insist on filing, I can recommend a courser medium file. A fine file would take too much effort.  Stihl chain is made in Wil, Switzerland with the best steel available.

Steel used to come out of Ohio a few years back. Now days I dont know.

She'll all be comin' out of China if the consumer don't put their foot down.

[HolmenTree]

Rather then sit and quote everyone ,I'll just post a few important facts about files and 3/8" sawchain.
I've been making a living with saws for close to 40 yrs , at one time I worked for Stihl and over the years have been involved in development and field testing of of saws, sawchain and accessories.

*any serious end user would not file a full size 3/8 sawchain with a 5/32" file for day to day work. Sure the smaller diameter makes less friction and is easier or faster to file with but the file wears out over twice as fast and they break easily if too much pressure is applied. The tangs also bend very easily. A 5/32 file is designed to be used with 3/8 LoPro and 1/4" chain with less filing pressure.

*Just because Stihl sawchain is made in Wil, Switzerland doesn't mean it is the highest quality sawchain with the best steel.
Stihl compared to the same pitch chain in Oregon is thicker in material,  Stihls .050 drive link is .063 at the top between the cutters and straps. Oregon .050 is .058 at the top. Compare Stihl cutters with Oregons, Stihls is heavier [thicker].That's why Stihl's cutters are harder to file compared to Oregon not because the steel is harder or better quality. Only Oregon has the technology to make the cutters and related parts as a thinner higher cutting speed chain and retain strength.
Oregon makes radial port rim sprockets for Stihl and puts Stihl's name on it.

* Good luck trying to find a good quality coarse, medium and fine sawchain files today in North America.
I still have a small stockpile of Oregon, Stihl, Oberg and Windsor files from the 1980s in these different coarseness and will run out sooner then later.

[lumberjack48]

Logging was the only house hold money i had coming in, i made my living with a chainsaw, a lot of the time 7 days a week. [ A very serious user ] [ 36 yrs ]

When filing a 3/8 chain with a 5/32 file, theres no need to push harder on the file just because the chain is bigger. You only have to us 1/3 the pressure when filing with a 5/32 to get the same results as a 7/32 file. With a 7/32 file your filing about 50% of the cutter that does nothing, its a wast of time to file all that extra cutter. If the tags are bending over easy, the person is filing to deep and getting to much hook on the cutter. Theres no reason to be breaking the file. But i know what you mean, none of my crew could ever get it, one or 2 strokes they'd break the file. I'd just shake my head, an grab another 5/32 file an though an edge on their saw. Then they'd shake their head, they couldn't understand how i could put an edge on so quick. In between me filing they had to use a 7/32 file. I know what the book says, i didn't stay in the box, i used what worked best for me.

I used Stihl, Oregon and Carlton chain at one time or another. Oregon chain is a much softer chain then Stihl chain, this is my experience using them side by side on the landing bucking up. I preferred Stihl, but i didn't like the price, i could buy two of the other for the price of one Stihl chain. I had one problem with Stihl, in -20 to -40 it would break for no reason. I've pinched Oregon chain an had it bend a little, I'd straighten it with a hammer . When i happed to pinch a Stihl chain the straps would crack, I'd have to repair it. Out of the 3 brands i had over all better service out of Carlton chain and Windsor/Sandvic bars, this is 20 yrs ago.
I still have my Carlton dealer ship.

[Full Chisel]

Hey Holmen Tree, don't feel as if you are gettin' picked on if ya get quoted please. It seems like that's the best way to keep others from thinking a comment came out of the blue. I wish I worked for Stihl. Two things:

If you come across some current accurate Rockwell #'s on Stihl and Oregon chains and the steel they are made of please post them here. The claim you made is substantial, and I'd like to see some figures. This is helpful, too as I am trying to design a new cutter shape. Thanks.

If you need some more medium files, I recommend Pferred. They are German like most of the best stuff. I buy all chainsaw related components from sponsors of this site, American distributors, or local dealers so I know it can be sourced in North America.

LJ-48, I buy rolls of Stihl RSC 36 and 26 with 28 master link sets included for $340 tax included. The equivalent Carlton or Windsor with shipping is equal in cost today (do they come with finishers?). If you can get me some Carlton full compliment in .063 gauge .375 or .325 for half the cost of Stihl chain, PM me and I'll buy it from you. Or give me a quote and we can discuss that. Thanks.

[1270d]

Just a note.  I just bought some 7/32 pferd files which say made in usa on them. 

[lumberjack48]

Full Chisel i better make my self a littler clearer, that was 30 yrs ago buying chain by the loop from a Stihl dealer. They wanted about $23 for a 16" loop, Carlton or Oregon were $10. to $12. for a loop. This was before i had a Carlton dealer ship, i got it after i got hurt. When we had the shop there was a place in NY state i got chain and bars from, they were cheaper then Carlton, you probably know where i'm talking about.

[Clam77]

I use 3/16" on my 3/8" chain - works dang good for me and prefer not to waste the time trying to find all the different sizes like 7/32 and 13/64 which are hard to find around here as it is.

5/32" for smaller chain of course.

[HolmenTree]

If you come across some current accurate Rockwell #'s on Stihl and Oregon chains and the steel they are made of please post them here. The claim you made is substantial, and I'd like to see some figures. This is helpful, too as I am trying to design a new cutter shape. Thanks.

Hey Full Chisel if you're capable of starting a new revolution in sawchain cutter design then you don't need Rockwell #'s from me :D
Unless you're already an engineer from the 2 big sawchain companies......good luck ;)
The current hooded cutter design [invented by Oregon in 1946] has still today been virtually unchanged in rough structure. A few "new" designs like Kolve from the 1970-80s challenged but went the wayside without a whimper.

Tell us what resources you have on hand to get this "new cutter design" built. Also fill us in on what you know about the history of sawchain design from the last 90 years. We don't want you to invent a cutter design that has already been invented.

Now back to those Rockwell #'s. Lets make it simple for everyone. Take a Stihl 33RS cutter and a Oregon 72 LGX cutter and hold them tightly side by side and look at them from the back side of the cutter. Now notice how much thicker the material of the Stihl cutter is. Also notice the .063 drive link thickness between the cutter and side strap on the Stihl and notice the thinner .058 on the Oregon.

[HolmenTree]

LJ-48, I buy rolls of Stihl RSC 36 and 26 with 28 master link sets included for $340 tax included. The equivalent Carlton or Windsor with shipping is equal in cost today (do they come with finishers?). If you can get me some Carlton full compliment in .063 gauge .375 or .325 for half the cost of Stihl chain, PM me and I'll buy it from you. Or give me a quote and we can discuss that. Thanks.

You gotta be getting that Stihl sawchain at cost from a dealer. Here in Canada retail price is up to $600 for a 100ft roll.
The best price I found for Oregon 72LGX in 100 ft roll was Bailey's at $300 give or take.

[lumberjack48]

I use 3/16" on my 3/8" chain - works dang good for me and prefer not to waste the time trying to find all the different sizes like 7/32 and 13/64 which are hard to find around here as it is.

5/32" for smaller chain of course.

Your all ready using a 3/16 [6/32] try the 5/32 it works a little better. The 3/16 is all so for smaller chain.

[Full Chisel]

If you come across some current accurate Rockwell #'s on Stihl and Oregon chains and the steel they are made of please post them here. The claim you made is substantial, and I'd like to see some figures. This is helpful, too as I am trying to design a new cutter shape. Thanks.

Hey Full Chisel if you're capable of starting a new revolution in sawchain cutter design then you don't need Rockwell #'s from me :D
Unless you're already an engineer from the 2 big sawchain companies......good luck ;)
The current hooded cutter design [invented by Oregon in 1946] has still today been virtually unchanged in rough structure. A few "new" designs like Kolve from the 1970-80s challenged but went the wayside without a whimper.

Tell us what resources you have on hand to get this "new cutter design" built. Also fill us in on what you know about the history of sawchain design from the last 90 years. We don't want you to invent a cutter design that has already been invented.

Now back to those Rockwell #'s. Lets make it simple for everyone. Take a Stihl 33RS cutter and a Oregon 72 LGX cutter and hold them tightly side by side and look at them from the back side of the cutter. Now notice how much thicker the material of the Stihl cutter is. Also notice the .063 drive link thickness between the cutter and side strap on the Stihl and notice the thinner .058 on the Oregon.

Revolution is about perpetual motion. A tool company called Woodings-Verona used to stamp, "Continuous Quality Improvement," on all their tools. This was once the impetus of America.

33RS Stihl has a .050 gauge drive link. 

Technology and creative application of resource will consume history. In 1960 Lead Arsenate was a top choice to control weeds in the home garden. You could run any of those old chain profiles through a simulation program today. That is what I need most.

[JohnG28]

He's saying that the drive link is thicker at the top, near the cutter. The portion that rides in the guide bar is still .050, but .063 above the guide rail where the tie straps and cutter tooth are.

[Full Chisel]

He's saying that the drive link is thicker at the top, near the cutter. The portion that rides in the guide bar is still .050, but .063 above the guide rail where the tie straps and cutter tooth are.

OK.

[Full Chisel]

In that case, Hey HolmenTree or any one who's interested: The Rockwell hardness of cutter tool steel is 55-65 as this covers saw chain the leading types are probably similar. If someone has some equivalent Oregon and Stihl chain (new and clean) of equal length, weigh them both and let us know. I'm going to contact the respective companies' technical departments and ask some questions. It always worked before. Solid numbers on hardness of various files and chains will save on speculation.

[Full Chisel]

Got a box coming of new Oregon Low Profile .375 chain to test on the top handles. All new cutters. These guys are relentless.

[John Mc]

... The Rockwell hardness of cutter tool steel is 55-65 as this covers saw chain the leading types are probably similar.

I'm assuming you are talking about the Rockwell C scale. 55-65 is quite a wide range. We heat treat flat steel wire to a 3 or 4 point range on the C scale (and generally don't use anywhere near the full range in actual practice).  I can't recall off the top of my head what the minimum thickness is that you can test on the C scale, but I'm thinking parts of a cutter tooth may be getting too thin (you end up being influenced by the hardness of the anvil it's sitting on).  You might need to drop down to the 30N scale.

If I were still working at one of our manufacturing plants, I'd bring in a piece of chain and test it for you, but I'm a good 13+ hour drive from there these days.  If here is anyone who heat treats steel in your area, they should have equipment to test hardness. You do need a flat piece of steel -- or at least enough of a flat spot to sit on a small post about 1/4" in diameter, and room for the penetrater to come down on the other side from above. This may be tough to accomplish with the shape of a chainsaw tooth.

[tcsmpsi]

I notice quite a few super conditions for modifications, aligning the quantum equilibrium, cleaning the spitzerhausen, etc. for saws and mills, this, that and another.

Similar to what Al mentions...Ok, sounds cool, but how much real work is that going to cut me out of? 

A file will fit in my back pocket, and I've not yet run into a chain they wouldn't sharpen.  Quickly.  In the short of it, I just plain don't have the time to implement all the super conductors.   I also know me well enough, that while I would be trying to elaborate the process, I would be anxious as a cat on a hot tin roof, seeing my time not actually being covered by chips or dust and movement.  For me, that would be unhealthy.

Certainly, if a fellow has the time to elaborate the ability of a saw to cut like a....saw, and that is what they choose to pursue, that is swell.  I'm sure there are plenty of things I'm apt to do that would create a question or two.   ;D

[HolmenTree]

Got a box coming of new Oregon Low Profile .375 chain to test on the top handles. All new cutters. These guys are relentless.

I hope this chain is something I don't know about, and just came out to be field tested.
Is this chain chisel ?

If not then it's just their latest semi-chisel 91VXL which has been on the market for several years now.
Stihl has a .375 LoPro chisel chain on the market for top handle saws now.

[Full Chisel]

... The Rockwell hardness of cutter tool steel is 55-65 as this covers saw chain the leading types are probably similar.

I'm assuming you are talking about the Rockwell C scale. 55-65 is quite a wide range. We heat treat flat steel wire to a 3 or 4 point range on the C scale (and generally don't use anywhere near the full range in actual practice).  I can't recall off the top of my head what the minimum thickness is that you can test on the C scale, but I'm thinking parts of a cutter tooth may be getting too thin (you end up being influenced by the hardness of the anvil it's sitting on).  You might need to drop down to the 30N scale.

If I were still working at one of our manufacturing plants, I'd bring in a piece of chain and test it for you, but I'm a good 13+ hour drive from there these days.  If here is anyone who heat treats steel in your area, they should have equipment to test hardness. You do need a flat piece of steel -- or at least enough of a flat spot to sit on a small post about 1/4" in diameter, and room for the penetrater to come down on the other side from above. This may be tough to accomplish with the shape of a chainsaw tooth.

Thanks. Learning.

[Full Chisel]

I notice quite a few super conditions for modifications, aligning the quantum equilibrium, cleaning the spitzerhausen, etc. for saws and mills, this, that and another.

Similar to what Al mentions...Ok, sounds cool, but how much real work is that going to cut me out of? 

A file will fit in my back pocket, and I've not yet run into a chain they wouldn't sharpen.  Quickly.  In the short of it, I just plain don't have the time to implement all the super conductors.   I also know me well enough, that while I would be trying to elaborate the process, I would be anxious as a cat on a hot tin roof, seeing my time not actually being covered by chips or dust and movement.  For me, that would be unhealthy.

Certainly, if a fellow has the time to elaborate the ability of a saw to cut like a....saw, and that is what they choose to pursue, that is swell.  I'm sure there are plenty of things I'm apt to do that would create a question or two.   ;D

I want those spitzerhausens gleaming. Buff out the modic dextrator on your way back. There's no time to cut you out of work. And change the blinker fluid!

Don't forget and leave the file in you back pocket when you sit on the furniture, though.

We are getting closer on the water laser jig.

[HolmenTree]

Got a box coming of new Oregon Low Profile .375 chain to test on the top handles. All new cutters. These guys are relentless.

Ok enough of the nonsense  :D
Let's talk about this Oregon sawchain you're testing. ???

[Full Chisel]

Got a box coming of new Oregon Low Profile .375 chain to test on the top handles. All new cutters. These guys are relentless.

Ok enough of the nonsense  :D
Let's talk about this Oregon sawchain you're testing. ???

Turns out it is Stihl chain. My supplier carries both. That's OK, we're unwilling to switch brands.

We are setting up to sharpen some chain on a water jet. Gonna try across the cutter from the working corner side first due to flare.

[Full Chisel]

Water jetting isn't workin' out at all for chain honing, but it was fun. I was able to cut out some onrey looking stainless spikes for the 044 based off a home made plan, though. These are sweet and sharp. Quite stiff, too. We also made some roller catchers from some old pushrods and nylon bushings. Think outside the box, folks. That is what America is.

[Full Chisel]

Goin' South to manage Isaac's damage. Catch ya in awhile.