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Need input from Frank and T-Beast

Started by DanG, December 22, 2001, 11:05:11 AM

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DanG

I have located a Mobile Dimensions mill for sale not far from here. I'm trying to arrange a meeting with the owner, and I need to know what I should be looking for.
Are there any weak points that would make it a bad deal?  The mill is a 1986 model, but has had very light usage for the last 7 years. The head is under a shed, but most of the trailer, etc, is out in the weather, and has what appears to be surface rust.
The owner says the 67hp VW engine runs good, and all functions are working ok, as of last week.
Reason for sale is the demise of his construction business, so the mill is no longer needed.  The price is reduced from $13,500 to $9000.
What do y'all think?
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Frank_Pender

  Dan. one on that level today would run you approx. $24,000, + or - a bit.  Have him demonstrate it for you.  I would also have the main blade checke for hairline cracks, not that, that is or has been a problem I have ever heard of, but it would be 7 or 8 hundred for a new one. :'(    I would also check the dipstick.  He probably has changed the oil to sell it but never the less.  Check the shanks to see if there is much wear.  You can do that by seeing if there is any shine to them.  That could be difficult.  Check the belts.  If it has been setting for some time, they are probably low in quality.  You will have to buy them from the Factory, as they are not available that I have vever found anywhere else.   Each set needs to have come from the same cutt in the material and all stretched at the same time in production.  The over all price sounds very good.  If he has come down from $13,000, that is not to far off from what he most likely paid of it.  My first one was 15gs and it is 11 years old.
Frank Pender

timberbeast

I'd go along with what Frank said,  also check the hoses for wear or rot.  Check the corners of the teeth.  If they are rounded,  it may have been run that way for awhile which can overheat the blades.  When he makes a cut,  and the carriage returns,  have him shut down the saw and feel the main blade.  It should NOT be hot.  If it is,  the teeth need sharpening or replacing,  and if it has been run that way for a long time,  the main blade could have heat-warped.  Look at the surface of the board for uniformity in the cut marks.  If the leading or trailing edge has a big difference,  it most likely is just an adjustment,  see if he can make it.  I wouldn't worry about the surface rust,  mine has it,  as the canopy is only over the head. If the carriage doesn't return (have him run it back and forth several times),  you may need new springs on the track,  no big deal.  A little oil at the return stop area will work,  too.  If the board has taper,  you should be able to adjust it quickly by pushing the round knob at the end of the tie-rod to disconnect from the tail end,  then crank the head end over,  and pull the knob back so the tie-rod re-connects.
Make sure he has a tooth-removal tool and shows you how to use it.  (Be careful here-loosen the engine tightening bolt so turning the blade doesn't crank the motor,  or it could start).
The price sounds pretty good to me,  mine is about the same age,  and was about 14K.  It will seem complicated at first,  but when you see it work for awhile,  it's so simple!!  Check the carriage bearings also (which ride the track).  They should be well lubricated.  Some track bounce is normal going through the log,  but can be minimized by cranking down the small wheel which rides on top of the log,  which is located near the blade guard,  Make sure that the blade guard retracts when the carriage returns.  Good Luck and Merry Christmas!!
Where the heck is my axe???

Frank_Pender

  Thanks, Timber Beast       I had to get goining yesterday as a customer came for a lumber pick up.  Anyway you continued well into the issues I had in mind that needed to be covered.  I would encourage yoou to seriously consider buying this machine.  Even though I have two I would buy tht unit myself if it were closer to me to examine.   I have a son who is a Missionary in Haiti and would love to have this mill for his working with the Haitiains.  He is teachin them how to fish rather than giving them the fish.  His whole idea is to teach them how to replant by starting a nursery for the seedlings and onto the planting and maintainance of a newely planted forest.  The sawmill is to teach them to process what trees are left and market the lumber as well as teaching them to use it in their homes he is teaching them to build for such things as doors, window frames, furniture, all the way to art work pieces from turnings to carvings.  He has his work cut out for him, that is for sure. :D
Frank Pender

DanG

Thanks, guys.  I  don't know when I'll be able to go look at the mill. The only time I seem to have is tomorrow, but I can't contact the man. :-(

If the blade has been overheated, would I be able to see the discoloration?  Is any degree of discoloration normal on these?

I have a friend with one of these mills, and he says that the only maintenence problem has been the bearings, but that they weren't any big deal to replace. What's been your experience with this?  He's had his since the late 70's, sawing part-time, so he has plenty of experience.  I may try to get him to go with me, if I can pull him out of the woods during hunting season.

Frank, you can bet your son has his work cut out. I did a little one-week mission thing in Haiti, in the early eighties. We helped build a church/school building in Les Cayes. I saw a sawmill, there, that used a hand-operated  Whipsaw.  The log was on a raised platform, with one guy above it, and one below. The saw looked like an old, two man crosscut saw with ripper teeth. You gotta really want a board BAD to be sawing lumber that way!
Congratulations to your son for being there. It is a very worthwhile endeavor. I found the Haitian people to be warm and friendly, and very grateful for any help.  There were some touching moments during our stay. One of them came as we were putting the finishing touches on some church furnishings that were intended for another church. We had the kneeling rails set aside while we finished up the pulpit. We heard some noise behind us when our generator ran out of gas. We turned to see a number of church members trying out "their" new prayer facilities. We didn't have the heart to take them to the other church, after that, so we took up a collection from the team, and went to town for more materials to do it all again.  That was the best vacation I ever had.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

timberbeast

Ahrgh,  Jeff!!  A pitsaw without a pit?
Dan,  the only discoloration on my blades is from pitch from the last log I cut (wet Spruce),  as I check and sharpen the teeth often.  Haven't had any bearing problems,  either,  all the bearings have a zerk of some fashion,  and I keep them lubed,  but if you overlube them,  they'll run hot for awhile.  Haven't replaced any.  Maybe someone else can tell you what to look for as far as blade discoloration,  I keep my inserts sharp enough so the blades always run cool. :)
Where the heck is my axe???

Gordon

Let me ask a question to the experts. What advantage does a Mobile Dimensions mill have over a band mill? Or for that matter what disadvantages does it have as well?

Thanks in advance for any input
Gordon

Frank_Pender

  Dan, you can sometimes tell by spots or blueing in a circular streak fahshion.  I have had to have mine hammered twice in 10 years dus to haveing hit 3" porcelan insolators, bofore I got my metal detector from Rens in Creswell, Oregon.                                                                                         Yes, he does Dan.  Thank you for sharing your experience with me.  I will let him know.  He is here fro the 10th of Dec. to about the 10th of Jan.  He and his wife have made a 3 year commitment to the task.  Challenge is an understatement for them both.  He is having to learn to speak Creole.  :P :-[
Frank Pender

DanG

Gordon, I'm not an expert, but I play one on TV. ;-)

The pros of the MD, as far as I can tell, are, speed, the fact that you don't have to move the log, once you dog it, and the fact that you produce either one or two complete boards with every pass of the saw. The edgers are built into the saw head.
The cons, as I see it involve the lack of flexibility. You are limited to cutting a certain size beam, though it is still a pretty good sized board. I'm sure Frank & TB will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think 12-14 inches is about max. The large size edgers will handle about 6 inches.  Flitches are out the window, unless the log is small.
I think the ideal, small operator should have 1 band mill, and one MD mill.

Howze dat for an "expert" answer? ;-)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

timberbeast

Dan's pretty much right on.  Dog it and cut it.  No turning involved.  On a bigger log,  you can make the slab cut on the side,  cut across the top,  then lower the whole unit and make two complete boards with each pass,  and it has enough power that you can make that pass on an 8-footer in about 10 seconds.  If you have,  say,  about a 7" diameter "log",  you can cut the edge slab,  then move to the side and in the next pass,  have a 4x4 with the heart boxed.  Two passes.  There is one vertical blade and two horizontals.  My max is 12" wide by 4" thick.  But I can handle a log up to 48",  by raising the whole unit and moving it down as far as I want with each pass,  could make all 2x4's or a mix of 1x12's,  2x4's,  2x6's or whatever.  A 36" log will usually take about 15 minutes to finish,  if I know what I wany beforehand.  Another advantage,  no broken blades,  no water needed spraying on the blade.  Disadvantage,  no big timbers,  as far as I know,  6" (with bigger edgers than I have) is max.  thickness.  Quarter-sawing is only what you get from the areas of the log that are lined up to come off as quarter sawn,  main blade kerf is 5/16 and edgers are 1/4.  Can't mill a 3-side cabin log (at least that I've figured out).  Always a trade-off somewhere.  Fast and reliable,  though.  I've gone down to 1/16 thickness without a hitch (just to experiment).
Also,  on logs say 13" and up,  after the first slab,  the mill brings the board and slab back to the operator,  pretty convenient if you work alone.  1750cc Volks engine will run all day without a burp,  too.
Where the heck is my axe???

Frank_Pender

Timber Beast, you can mill a board up to an 8 x 12 by adapting the bottom edger blade.  You remove the 8" blade and replace it with the 16" blade. You then move the larger, main blade out four inches as well as the shroud.  You then take the top off of a log, makeing a flat surface.  Then drop down the distance you want to go for the width of your timber.  Take the slab off, and move into the log for your thickness.  I this way you can produce a timber up an 8 x 12.   This is the fastest way I have found to be able to cut RR ties or other large timbers.   I can also roll the log and taske one side at a time, producing a finished timber. with four passes or so.
Frank Pender

Ron Wenrich


I've never seen a Mobile Dimension saw run, but I have seen pictures.  I don't really see much of a problem with the board width.  In many cases with hardwoods, those wide boards are ripped down and glued into panels.  I've been told its more stable.

The only question I have is how well it will do in hardwoods.
  Grade hardwoods are sold by random width and by the linear foot from 4-16'.  To get your best grade yield, you have to turn the log.  Do you think that you sacrifice some grade by live sawing?








Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

timberbeast

Ron,  yeah,  I think there is a sacrifice in the grade,  if you don't turn.  As Frank stated,  you CAN turn it if you want to,  but that negates the speed.  Personally,  I have found that hardwood is easier to saw than cedar or spruce,  probably because it's less fibrous,  as all I saw in hardwoods is maple,  birch (white and yellow),  and occasionally black ash or poplar (hardwood,  yes,  but hard?).  Aside from the popple,  the woods are quite stable and dry nicely in the air.  Popple can be a pain.  Most of the hardwood I saw I use myself or sell to niche markets,  woodworkers who want birdseye or spalted stuff.  Small quantities.  Have sawed some Black Cherry,  and it was a pure pleasure.  Easy sawing,  easy drying,  easy selling,  pretty stuff.
Frank,  I am familiar,  in the written word,  about the method you described for bigger timbers,  but I don't have a market for them.  I built a deck on my logging shack just by slabbing one side and using the flat on top,  left the rest round,  for the joists,  and yes,  I peeled them.  It will outlive my kids.
Found a guy who is interested in soft maple,  with flame figure,  16-20" lengths,  in the round,  waxed on the ends,  for building violins.  Says he gives them a minimum of 15 years drying time,  can't be sawn,  has to be  hewn after drying.  I have some huge soft maples,  but don't know if they have flame.  Anyone know how to tell?  Sounds like he'll pay a small fortune!
Where the heck is my axe???

Frank_Pender

Timber Beast,  the best way I have found is the remove the bark and see if there are ripples moving in a horixontal direction from the normal growing direction of the tree.  this is the only method that i know of, other than cutting the log.   You might also try splitting or cutting a chunk with the chainsaw that comes just before or after the piece you are trying to save.  Fifteen years is a long time to wait to see the figure of a piece of wood. I do not know if I "wood" have the patience for that kind of wait. :D  Perhaps there are some other ideas out there about this issue?
Frank Pender

Ron Wenrich

I've never heard of anyone using soft maple for instruments.  Most of them use hard maple.  The more flame the better.  When they are dry, the maple will actually ring, so I'm told.

Ripples under the bark is a good method of determining curl.  Of the little bit of curl I've run into, it usually had a rippled appearance.  It wasn't as evident in the other species.

I recently saw a couple of dobros for sale.  One was made of birch and another was made of curly oak.  I'm not sold on the resonance value of the oak.

Other species used in acoustical instruments include spruce, rosewood and mahogany.  Ash is used in electric guitars, as well as some off-the-wall woods in those cheaper products.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

timberbeast

Ron,  I am somewhat familiar with instrument making,  as I have played guitar since I could hold one,  but this guy says soft maple generally has a better flame these days,  so maybe he's going for eye-candy.  We used to call it "tiger-stripe".  Ya fergot Mahogany!  Most acoustic guitar sides are mahogany,  sound boards usually spruce,  most sought-after comes from Alaska.  Necks on acoustics and electrics (top quality) are almost always mahogany or maple,  with maple the choice for Fender in general,  and mahogany for Gibson.  The Gibson Les Paul Standard.  Is a mahogany neck,  ebony fingerboard,  mahogany body,  with a carved,  laminated top of hard maple.  The models from the late 1950's were of particularly nice figure,  that coupled with the first PAF humbucking pickups make them fervently sought collector's pieces,  some going into the 5-digit range!!  Fender generally used ash for its bodies,  but many examples of alder bodies exist.  Once again,  the models from the 50's shine,  as they must have been made from one exceptional ash log.  The ash is extremely heavy,  adding to sustain and clarity.  True of both Telecasters and Stratocasters.  There are also some with solid maple bodies.  The Gibson Les Paul TV models and Junior models were solid,  uncarved mahogany bodies,  but I did once see a Junior with a solid maple body,  and I know that Keith Richards has a TV model with a solid maple body,  which was the guitar used on the original recording of "Honky-Tonk Women".  Collectors or sellers beware:  with the price that some instruments are going for,  if you find a 1959 Les Paul in good condition,  it's about a 50% chance that it's a forgery,  and no matter how well built,  is useless as a collector's piece!
Where the heck is my axe???

stickbilt

Hey TB,
I have a Gibson LP standard 1982. I paid $ 325 for it in 1985. It's 100 % original and weighs exactly a ton.
It just sits most of the time though because I much prefer the playability and sound of my American Standard Strat, 2000.
                                                       Stickbilt

Ron Wenrich

I've been playing in bands for 35 years.  Some good, some bad.  I have a friend who made a lot of money buying those old guitars.  He had one of those old Les Pauls, I believe it was a 1957.  He told me the value was $32,000.

Paul Reed Smith is making electric guitars with outrageous flame.  This same guy had the 2nd guitar Paul made.  He traded that one for cash and a new PRS guitar.  

If you want to see some really nice electric guitars, try this site:  http://www.prsguitars.com/   Go back to their private stock sale.  Really nice instruments.  Some of these go for 5 digits, new.

I noticed that he used one piece red maple for some double necked guitars.  He also has some models using swamp ash, basswood, and big leaf maple.  Your violin making friend should find Smith's source.   ;)

I've played guitar, a little banjo and mainly pedal steel, here of late.  I'm thinking of going the dobro route, next.  The pedal steels use a lot of birdseye maple.  

Martin guitar is about 75 miles to the east of me.  I had a chance to go through both their guitar plant, and their sawmill.  It is supposed to be the most accurate mill in the States.  Their Sitka spruce came from British Columbia, rosewood came from India, and I can't recall where the mahogany came from.  I believe it was from Central America.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Tom


timberbeast

Dang!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I thought I was looking at my mill for a second!!  Mine is set up the same way,  'cept it's surrounded with sawdust,  and the one in the picture here looks older.  My roof is even the same.  'cept I have an I-beam with a chainhoist to make engine/carriage removal easier.
Stickbuilt,  that LP should easily fetch around 800 bucks.
I prefer them to Strats because of the neck angle,  plus I'm pretty much just a "rythmn chunker".  
Ron,  PRS sure does make some pretty guitars,  same scale length as the Les Paul,  which is why so many players seem to switch to them from Pauls.  Also,  I think they must pay a pretty good promotional rate to "famous" folks who play them,  I've seen a lot of guys switch to them shortly after having a top-twenty song.  Nice stuff,  indeed!
BTW,  a few employees leased the Gibson plant in Kalamazoo after Gibson moved all production to Nashville.  They make "Heritage" guitars,  which are built with the same jigs and machines that the Les Pauls were made with.  Doesn't have the prestige of saying "Gibson" on the headstock,  but they the same thing,  with a bit more hand-work.  Interesting about the Martin place! (always wanted one!),  I had a catalogue from them at one time,  where you could order instrument wood from their mill.  Wonder if they still do that?
Where the heck is my axe???

Frank_Pender

I see that he has made some modifications to the mill.  He enlarged the fuel container by at least 3 times. and added some sort of a shroud.  My concern for this is the additional weight placed on the unit on that side and front of the power unit.  I would think it would make a difference somehow.  but I am not an engineer.  But on thinking about this, I too have an additional weight out front on one of my units, the newest.  It is the water cooler for the thinner curfed blade.  It hold about 5 gallons, so that is approximately 35 more pounds out front, but factory installed and engineered, is the only difference. ::)
Frank Pender

Gordon

Frank, you use water to cool the thin blade on your mill?
Thought that was only needed on a band mill. Please tell me more about it.

What is the verdict on the mill for Dan? Looks like it's got some surface rust. But humid/wet is Flordia isn't it. It's hard to tell by the pics about the most important part the power head. Nice set up with the concrete pilliars. Don't have to worry about those nice Flordia bugs. >:(

Gordon

Frank_Pender

The mfg. has gone to a thinner curf balde for the main blade.  The original was/is 5/16th whereas the nother is 1/4" curf.  With the thinner blade there is the need to keep it cooler. I have one of each.  When you puirchase the units you have a choice of water or no water.  I just happened to acquire a prototype mill with all kinds of bells and whistles, even a trailer with "gobs of hydraulic toys attatched, of which they are not making such a mill.  It is a real joy to work such a toy.
Frank Pender

DanG

Well, the big day is coming! 8)  I have an appointment on Jan 1 to look at the mill.  If I don't find any obvious problems, I will probably buy it.  I would think that checking the engine would be about like looking at a used car. I'll also check out whatever bearings for any slop, cables for fraying and obvious wear, and, most importantly, the frame for any damage or heavy rust.

Then will come the interesting part. ::)  Neither I, nor the owner has ever operated a mill of this type. He had(that's PAST tense, folks) an employee that ran it for him. He knows how to "crank it up and run it back and forth", but has never actually sawn with it. :o   I'll ask Miz DanG if she ever ran one :D :D  Anyway, we've both "seen it done", and he's got a couple of small logs we can play with, so I should be able to tell if everything works ok.  I have a buddy who can teach me the fine points, if I buy it.

If you don't ever hear from me again, it'll mean that things didn't go too well. :o :o  
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

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