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Don't limb for faster drying

Started by jwillett2009, June 21, 2012, 09:04:30 PM

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Gary_C

I had this wood leftover from a hardwood thinning back in 2007. There was about 150 cords of smaller red oak in 17 foot plus lengths and about 100 mbf of red oak and hard maple in larger diameter logs. The shorter logs in the foreground were low grade red oak.



 

Over the years since then, I have sold or cut up for firewood most of that wood and have found this as far as drying. Even today if you were to cut one of those logs and split for firewood, the centers of the log will be relatively wet or a darker red. You can actually see and feel the moisture. After the pieces are split, that internal moisture will flash or evaporate relatively fast (days) and the wood will burn well, just like it's dry.

So what I expect you will find if you could accurately measure the moisture content at different times as the logs dry, you will find the moisture content will vary depending on how far the particular place in the log is from the nearest outside surface with the cut ends drying the furthest into the logs. So you could probably conclude that the smallest diameter parts dry faster but do not actually wick any significant amounts from the larger diameters. And you could also find there is significant variation in the moisture depending on the location in the log. So much so that to draw any conclusion as to the differences in the two halves, limbs or not will be difficult.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

doctorb

Quote from: Gary_C on July 03, 2012, 12:15:11 PM
So what I expect you will find if you could accurately measure the moisture content at different times as the logs dry, you will find the moisture content will vary depending on how far the particular place in the log is from the nearest outside surface with the cut ends drying the furthest into the logs.

That is exactly what I find when testing my firewood.  I can take a 14" round which has a length of 24" and find moisture content to be quite variable when I split it.  When I measure close to the center of the log (diameter) the readings are higher than toward the periphery.  If I measure the center of the diameter of the log at the mid point of the length of the the log, it's the highest reading I will find.  In general, these readings can vary up to 5-6% from the driest reading on the periphery of the log.  However, this is in a fairly dry peice of wood, with a low H2O contnet of say 18%, and  a high of 24%. 

I think beenthere is correct, and I won't have any way of accurately determining a diofference in H2O contnet a few weeks from felling, as the moisture content will be still be very high.  So the question for me is whether such techniques can dissipate enough moisture to make a difference in drying time or not.  One month out, it may be significant in terms of statistical numbers, but it's still going to be green wood fo a long time.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

Gary_C

You could then also expect the places where limbs are cut off would also increase the moisture loss that could be far greater that the supposed wicking effect from the limbs losing moisture and drawing from the rest of the tree, which I think is just wishful thinking.

The more cuts the better.  :)
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Cypressstump

Girdling practices were used extensively during the logging of the virgin cypress trees in the Louisiana swamps. The lack of proper girdling is what makes a cypress log a sinker log. Guys were paid 20-40 cents day to go into the swamps and girdle the trees. Then usually the following year the logging operations would start up during the high waters in spring allowed for the trees to be felled and dragged out into rafts for transport to market. The poor guys trudging thru the swamps whacking on the trees did  not always girdle properly. Altho their Bossman might'a been  a bit angry to have them heavy logs sinking out of rafts, I,  for one am sorta' glad they were a bit lack on the whack !
Stump

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beenthere

For an experiment to test leaf desication vs no-leaf, one might take two comparable size limbs (one with leaves and the other without).

Might place them on a 'balance' beam so they are at a balance point and then observe to see if the leaved-one loses more weight (being water) than the non-leaved one. Still tough to match samples as well as get the balance set up.
But weighing would be one way to monitor more moisture loss from the leaves (of which I don't sign onto but
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

beenthere

Quote from: Cypressstump on July 03, 2012, 12:49:22 PM
Girdling practices were used extensively during the logging of the virgin cypress trees in the Louisiana swamps. .......

Girdling the cypress, I understand, was also a way to "lay claim" to selected trees and mark them prior to the logging operation. Somewhat like is done now with marking paint.
As well, some species of trees will bleed a lot of moisture when girdled so would be good to help them float too.

Hope you get some pics of the log diving this week.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Jeff

I scanned this topic quickly to see if there was mention, and I didn't see it, so I think it is worth mentioning that if you live anywhere near an area that has oak wilt, you should be aware that by knocking down red oak trees while they are leafed out, or lets say, in a non-dormant state, that you are risking the entire stand to infection and then, certain death.
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doctorb

Jeff-

I have not heard of oak wilt around here.  If we have it though, we are in for it.  The recent storms in the mid-atlantic knocked down all types of trees, but, and I don't know why this is, many were oak trees.  I have never seen so many oaks down from a storm in my life.  Maybe it's just the old neighborhoods that I drive through on the way to work, but the oaks appear to have been almost selectivley beaten by this wind.  Wierd.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

shelbycharger400

jeff...

neighbor next door has lost quite a few over the years to the wilt.
in the 5 years ive been here, all is still well except for one tree that dropped another branch today..did it 3 years ago too.   this fall ITS being dropped .  I have black/ black jack, and pin oak mostly with a few small pines and 3 or 4 ash trees.  and some maples too.

Worse case senario if it ever dose hit bad, i will buy 300 or so hybrid poplars , and a few pines .  by the time the poplar and white pine are getting firewood size i could regenerate hardwood saplings/ decent yard trees

muddstopper

Just cut one tree, then cut off one piece of firewood. Leave the rest of the tree and the cut piece of firewood lay where they fell until the tree leaves wilt. then cut off another piece of firewood and split along with the first piece that was cut off when the tree was felled. Compare the the 2 split pieces and see which is dryer. My money is on the piece that was left uncut when the tree was felled.

beenthere

Sounds like a plan.  8)

QuoteCompare the the 2 split pieces and see which is dryer.

How do you suggest measuring to "see" which is dryer?  I'm curious.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

doctorb

We see this same type of enigma in medical research all the time......

1). How can you accurately measure a difference between two things that are treated differently and...

2). Even if there is a measurable difference, what does it mean?

To me, both of these "samples" will still be way too green to burn (<20%MC), so any measurable difference is probably meaningless.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

SwampDonkey

I trimmed some limbs off the box elder over the drive way on Sunday Morning. Hauled the limbs off and they stayed green for two days. Today they are brown and we had temps near 80 the last few days. They aren't drawing moisture now, but how much did the green leaves draw before wilt? Who knows. ;)
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Gary_C

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

stumper

One more thing to think about is just time management for the chopper.  I think most of us fall into the week end warrior class.  I know I do, so.......

If I go out and fell, limb, skid, block, split and stack a days worth of wood then come back next weekend and do the same.   I think everyone would aggree  it starts drying the day it is cut. 

On the other hand if I go out and fell or girdle a days worth of trees, then come back next week end and limb, skid, block, split, stack and fell or girdle next weekends wood.  I hope everyone aggrees that the work done the second weekend is equivalent to the work done in a day in my first senario.  The question then becomes "When does the wood start to dry?".  Assuming it starts to dry upon felling or girdling, regardless of the rate of drying, I am ahead of the game by that amount.

So to me the question then is simplified to "Does the wood start to dry upon felling, or not?".  My back tells me it does.

So Doc I would suggest this for an experiment:
1.  Fell the tree;
2.  Cut a cookie off the bottom;
3.  Weigh it;
4.  Dry it in a microwave or oven till completely dry or to a point that the moisture meter is accurate and weigh it again;
5.  Wait a week;
6.  Cut a cooking out of the tree away from the base of the tree;
7.  Weigh it;
8.  Dry it in a microwave or oven till completely dry or to a point that the moisture meter is accurate and weigh it again;
9.  Do the math.  Did the wood dry during the week?;
10.  Report finding here;
11.  Have a brew.  Yes, I feel that anything worth doing is improved with a brew, Coffee, Tea, or Beer it does not matter:

doctorb

Well thought out, stumper.  I do not have a scale that would be accurate enough to pull that off.  I could use the one in my boat for weighing fish....., but we all know they lie! ;D
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

stumper

In that case just skip to step 11 ;D

muddstopper

I believe if the wood is going to be cut split and not used until the next season, it probably wont make any kind or very little difference in how well the wood has cured out. And if you are cutting wood in the fall when leaves are turning, with intentions of buring the wood that same season, you probably also wont see much if any difference. I also dont have any doubt that if the tree is cut green, and the limbs and leaves left on it until wilted and turning brown, that that wood will weigh less and contain less moisture than a similar tree cut the same day and then limbed and left laying on the ground for the same amount of time as the unlimbed tree. Will this make a difference 6 months or a year later when you get ready to burn the wood? To many things like temperature and humidity to get any type of accurate measurement. You put a dry sponge and a wet sponge out in a rain storm and they will both be equally wet when it stops raining. 

Full Chisel

Quote from: Jeff on July 03, 2012, 01:17:04 PM
I scanned this topic quickly to see if there was mention, and I didn't see it, so I think it is worth mentioning that if you live anywhere near an area that has oak wilt, you should be aware that by knocking down red oak trees while they are leafed out, or lets say, in a non-dormant state, that you are risking the entire stand to infection and then, certain death.

This is important to note, think about--practice sanitation. We see a lot of leafed out trees blow down in various stages of wilt. Trees are plants and they don't have an immune system. In most cases it's better to get the debris off the forest floor and don't take chances harboring disease pathogens (vectors). In simpler terms, get 'er dun.
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Jethro: Don't look at me Uncle Jed. I didn't take it.

stavebuyer

I am curious if differences in growth rate and the ratio of sapwood to heartwood would influence drying rates in this type of experiment?

Al_Smith

A comment regarding red oak .If left in the log it will retain moisture for decades .

Sugar maple on the other hand will grow mushrooms after about two years .This is one variety you need to be very timely in processing either into firewood or lumber as be the case .Timely bucked and split it dries relatively quickley .

muddstopper

Quote from: Al_Smith on July 06, 2012, 10:36:49 AM
A comment regarding red oak .If left in the log it will retain moisture for decades .

I dont know if I completely agree with this statement. There are many species of oak that are mistakenly called red oak. We have Red oak, Black oak, White oak, Spanish oak, Pin oaks and probably several other species of oaks and most people here call oaks either red oak or white oak. In other words, what you are calling a red oak may or not be an actual red oak, I have no way of knowing. Non-the-less, any oak cut around here and left in a log lenght, on the ground, will be rottening with mushrooms and bark falling off in about a year. It will also contain more moisture than it did when it was first cut, and moisture content will vary with each rain event. Just like a sponge. Of course in the Smokey Mountains, our annual rain fall is only second to the Pacific Northwest and I am sure that will make a difference.

John Mc

I think Al knows what a Red Oak really is.  And we see the same thing around here... If you cut Red Oak (and yes, we have plenty of true Red Oak here), it takes forever to dry, and is rot resistant.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Al_Smith

I'm not certain if northern red oak and southern red oak is the same .The northern species although not as rot resistant as white oak can lay on the ground for decades .

Fact just yesterday I cut up a short red oak log I know for a fact had layed 10 years and it was solid as a rock .

Either species the northern red or white will deteriate the sap wood but the heart will be rock solid .

I had mentioned a time or two about in the early 80s' cutting into a white oak cull log they left behind from a cut made in 1937 .Rotted in about 3-4 inchs and the water ran out once into the heart wood with the saw .

Every so often people who go treasure hunting for old downed trees with chainsaw mills remark about finding some real gems once they saw into them .You can't tell what's inside until you cut it .

stumper

I agree red oak does not dry in log length and even in split firewood dries slow.

I had to buy a load of firewood this year and beleive it or not have been complaining a little, that there is too much red oak in the load (i know it is a terrible problem to have).  I need some of this wood to season for use in February and I know the oak will not. 

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