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squash

Started by ely, June 19, 2012, 09:08:44 AM

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ely

gonna play the FF card this am. my squash this year are rotting at the bloom end, not certain why. first year it has been a problem. i have yellow, straight and crooked neck, and two varieties of zucinee, they will all do it.
seems if i will pull the blooms off the squash once they develope the squash do fine, but right now i throw 20 or so out each evening.


also is there any tips on growing pumpkins, my first year on those and they are doing well.

Roxie

Low calcium.  You need to remove all blossoms affected and spray with calcium rich fertilizer. 


Say when

slider

Roxie is right .I had the same problem with tomatoes ,it was calcium.
al glenn

sandhills

Just amazing what you can learn here  :).

sharp edge

Ely do you know the PH of the soil? Sounds like it must be to low. I was useing wood ash on my garden and got the PH to high. Have you used any wood ashes on your garden? my ,o2

SE

P.S. the squash are just starting to show up here.
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okmulch

I have had tomatos rot on bottom, and from what I have read that is caused by irregular watering (either to much or not enough). Don't know if that is same issue as squash.
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Roxie

No, rot at the blossom end is a distinct problem related to calcium and its absorption.  The soil benefits by having lime put down to correct the ph before planting, but if he gets the calcium enriched fertilizer, he can probably salvage this years crop. 

For pumpkin advice, while they are blossoming, decide if you want a lot of pumpkins, or just a few big ones per vine.  You can remove blooms and trim the runners to just those supporting the chosen ones, but if you touch the vines, you should be wearing disposable gloves and you must sterilize the sheers before cutting.

Say when

ely

im unsure of the ph in the soil, i also have not put any wood ash on the garden spot, i have put a good amount of chicken litter on it this spring early... that may be a problem, i usually like to let it lay all winter after putting the chicken litter on it.

this is one of the swell reasons that makes the FF so great. if you can think it up, someone here has experience in that area.

also some of the squash have a gray powder like stuff on the leaves and they look like they are getting weak or something... is that gonna be a by product of the low calcium deal or not.?

Norm

It sounds like you have more than one problem ely. The leaves can get a bacterial disease introduced by several different beetles that feed on them. Ours in our area is the squash beetle.

The problem with chicken manure is that it should be applied in the fall. It may be tying up the calcium or it may be that the plants are getting so much phosphorus it's hurting them.

ely

roxie, whats the deal with touching the vines, and why sterilize the shears? not doubting you just wanting to learn more.

ely

that may be so norm, the garden is doing better this year than ever overall. just a few problems i have noticed.

Roxie

You'll need gloves to handle the vines and stems because they have little razor like hairs.  Sterilize the shears to prevent any fungus from attacking the cut vines.  The vines are hollow and very fragile. 

Say when

WDH

You can buy a bottle of "Blossom End Rot" at the hardware store.  I know that ACE hardware has it.  You add about a tablespoon to a gallon of water (read the label for exact dosage), and you can spray that directly on the plants.  Spray the whole plant.  It contains calcium chloride which can be absorbed by the plants.  It used to be a common problem for me in tomatoes, but the spray really helps.  My tomatoes this year are wonderful.
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ely

thanks all, i appreciate the info and conversation.

muddstopper

Calcium deficiency is the number one cause of blossom end rot. It does effect Squash as well as tomatoes. But that doesnot sound like what your problem is with your squash. You mentioned a gray powdery mold growing on your vines. This is a serious fungal problem caused by high humidity and probably over fertilization. The Calcium deficency is also a contributing factor. This powdery graymold will spread from the squash to your tomatoes, cucumbers, peppers so care should be taken when handleing the infected plants. To control the mold, spray with a fungicide that contains copper and/or sulfur. Daconil is one brand and Serinade is another product that will control the mildew. For a organic approach, a tablespoon of baking soda mixed in a gallon of water and a little dish detergent to act as a surfactant, will prove very effective in controlling most fungus. Fungus thrive in low ph enviroments, the baking soda will raise the ph levels on the leafs of the plants and prohibit the fungal growth.

Just for info about the chicken manure. Manure from broiler chickens will be low in calcium, but if the manure comes from chickens used in egg production, most likely the manure will be calcium rich. Chicken farmers mix calcium in their feed for layers to ensure that the chickens have plenty of calcium to produce hard shells on the eggs they lay. High calcium is not necessary for broiler type chickens since most are either roosters or are birds that will never reach maturity to lay any eggs.

Also, dont get caught up in Ph levels. While liming can and does increase the ph of the soil, it can also be used to lower the ph in very high ph soils. Ph is a measure of hydrogen in the soil and can be manipulted with a varitity of different compounds. Baking soda is one such compound. You can raise your ph to exact perfect levels using baking soda, but you probably wont be able to raise a crop there. Magnesium Carbonate has 1.6 times the ph raiseing effect of calcium carbonate lime, but to much magnesium will make your soil tight and compacted. If your soils have the proper balance of nutrients, most likely the ph will be near perfect levels. Choose fertilizers to balance your nutrient levels and you will never have to worry about ph.

Dodgy Loner

Quote from: ely on June 19, 2012, 04:41:22 PM
also some of the squash have a gray powder like stuff on the leaves and they look like they are getting weak or something... is that gonna be a by product of the low calcium deal or not.?

It is powdery mildew. It is one of the only fungal diseases that is more common in dry conditions than wet.  Preventative fungicidal sprays are the key to control. Once it's established, it's almost impossible to kill. Spray with Daconil (chlorothalonil) or wettable sulfur once a week. Copper hydroxide also works, but it can be harder to find.

And I must disagree with mudstopper about the importance of pH levels. If your pH is not correct, it does not matter how nutrient-rich the soil is, because your nutrients will be bound tightly to the soil particles and unavailable to the plants. I shoot for a pH of 6.0 to 6.5 in my garden.
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BrothersMule

No blossom end rot here but i did come home to half dead squash and zuccini plants yesterday. Turns out my little friend the Squash Borer  ( White worm that bores into the main stem of the plant where it meets the ground) came to visit. I noticed tuesday the plants looked a little stressed but its been getting hot and they were thirsty so i watered and they seemed to perk back up. Got home yesterday and at least 2 of the 10 are done for with the rest looking not far behind. I hit them with the 7 dust good but it may be too little to late. I actuall found the worm in a couple plants but i did not inspect them all just assume if a couple have them they all do. They looked ok this morning but only time will tell. It sucks we have put a lot of time in this year and they were looking great. Been eating off of them for about 2 weeks and was starting to get enough to give some away. Hopefully we cought it early enough to save  some.

WDH

I have worms in the squash fruit.  This always happens, but usually not this early.  I sent you a PM Dodgy asking for help  :).
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ohsoloco

Quote from: ely on June 19, 2012, 09:08:44 AM
also is there any tips on growing pumpkins, my first year on those and they are doing well.

Go out in the morning and pick some of the blossoms while they are still open.  Batter them and fry 'em in some hot oil...yum! 

muddstopper

Dodgy, I dont think we are disagreeing on the importance of Ph. I think you just misinterpeted what I was trying to say.

My point is, Ph can be manipulated in several ways using varying compounds. Simply looking at ph and adding lime to raise those levels because they are low, doesnot increase the soils fertility. Since each nutrient has its own cationic or anionic charge, each nutrient will have an effect on the soils ph, (hydrogen levels), in the soil. Ph will vary in the soil acording to moisture content. Yes, water contains hydrogen and therefore will effect ph levels. Simply looking at ph to determine whether or not you need to add lime has ruined many a good garden as well as a lot of large farms. Since most lime is either calcitic or dolomitic types, simply adding a lime doesnt gaurantee adequate calcium or magnesium levels. Yes! ph is important, but more important is chooseing the correct materials to reach that desired ph levels.

To learn more on soil fertility, I suggest the book , Hands on Argonomy, Understanding Soil Fertility and Fertilizer use,  by Neal Kinsey. I think the only place you can by it is at Acres USA, but you might be able to find it at Amazon or other big box book stores. In fact, there is a lot of good reading for free on the Acres USA website.

Also check out http://www.microessentials.com/efficient-fertilizer-use-manual

Dodgy Loner

I'm quite familiar with Kinsey's book and the base-cation saturation ratio method of "balancing" soil fertility. The problem is, I disagree with its basic premise. There is no research data to support the many far-fetched claims made by some users of this method of analyzing fertility. The research that compares the base-cation saturation ratio (BCSR) method of fertilization side-by-side with the sufficiency level of available nutrients (SLAN) model indicate that, under most circumstances, maximum yields are the same using both methods. However, fertilizer costs are up to twice as much for the BCSR method. So yes, you can get good result by following Kinsey's methodology, but you will also spend more money in doing so.

However, I will absolutely agree with you about one point that you have made: it is quite important to consider your soil nutrient levels when choosing a material to correct your pH. For example, if your soil is low in calcium and magnesium and has a low pH, then the obvious material for correcting the pH is dolomitic lime. However, if you have sufficient calcium and magnesium but not enough potassium, in addition to low pH, then wood ash would be a logical choice.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

muddstopper

I guess we will agree to agree. Altho why use wood ash to supply potassium when the unburn wood will provide so much more than just the potassium. When burning the wood, you lose all the gaseous nutrients , as well as all the carbon, with the smoke. Personally, I prefer composted chipped wood for the Ramail method of soil building. Lumber, chipped or burnt to ashes, is a very poor microbial food source, but it will raise potassium levels.

Dodgy Loner

Quote from: muddstopper on June 22, 2012, 07:24:31 PM
why use wood ash to supply potassium when the unburn wood will provide so much more than just the potassium.

Composted wood can certainly improve the soil quality (as long as it is decomposed to the point where it will not rob the soil of nitrogen), but if your pH is too low, and your soil is low in potassium, then wood ash will solve both problems. Of course you can add compost in addition to wood ash and reap the additional benefits of enhanced microbial activity and water and nutrient retention. So we are not completely at odds, but I don't think that ignoring pH is a wise way to manage soil. In fact, I think it is one of the first things you should look at.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

WDH

Some nutrients, like phosphorus (iron is another one), are unavailable at lower pH's.  When you raise the pH, say with lime, then as you approach a less acid pH, phosphorus becomes more available and actually has a fertility effect without adding additional fertilizer.
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muddstopper

Phosphourous is a tripple negative anion and will attach itself to any positive cation nutrient. Calcium is a double positive cation and will bond to the phosphorous and form tricalcium phosphate. Hydrogen is a weaker cation and is the nutrient that knocks the calcium/phosphous bond aparts to allow for uptake of both nutrients into the plant. Most commercial phosphate sources are only available for plant uptake for 4 wks in good growing conditions and 8 wks in the best of growing seasons simply because of the ionic bonds.. Ammoniumnated phosphates, such as DAP will stay available much longer than than any of the super phosphates. I suspect the nitrogen feeding the microbes being the main reason for the longer availability.

Compost and wood chips will only cause nitrogen deficenicies if they are incorporated into the soil. Whether you use fully composted materials or partialy decomposed wood chips, both should be applied to the top of the soil as mulch instead of incorporating either into the soil. This way the microbes will only attack the layer of the material that is in contact with the soil and have minimal effect on soil nitrogen levels.

I add my ramail wood chips to my garden as a mulch to help hold moisture and control weeds. In the fall after harvest, I till the mulch into the soil and plant grass rye, not grain. Once the rye is about knee high, I move my chicken tractors over the rye grass and let them feast and poop all over the garden. By spring, there is no sigh of the wood chips and I will till and start planting all over again. I also have access to tons of horse manure mixed with saw dust that I will use as a mulch. I hardly ever use any chemical fertilizers and then only if soil testing shows a deficency. Both calcium and phosphorous are deficient by the natural soil base material, so I usually lime each fall before planting the rye grass. If I need phosphorous, I use Dap, 18/46/0. I have never had a problem with potassium levels as it occurs naturally in my soils.

I never ignore soil ph and didnot mean to sound that I dont think it is important or should be ignored. If the soil fertility levels are in proper balance, then soil ph will become an non issue simply because with proper nutrient levels, the ph will be in balance also. Soil is first chemical, then physical and then biological. Without the proper chemical balance, you cannot have the proper physical properties and without proper physical characteristics, the biology is not able to survive or thrive.

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