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I have a few questions about harvesting timber

Started by neckbeard, June 17, 2012, 06:08:22 AM

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neckbeard

Hello, I just signed up because my mom has 37 acres of wooded property that we need to learn how to manage. Dad passed away a few years back, so she needs a little help. We were considering harvesting some of the timber on the property, but I have few questions I'd like to ask before I contact a consultant. I've been reading up on the process a bit, but I'm completely new to the whole thing. Sorry if some of the questions sound silly.

1. Is it a good time to harvest timber at the moment?

I've heard that the timber market fluctuates quite a bit, and that it's pretty closely tied to new home sales. I wouldn't mind selling if timber prices are a down a little bit, but something like 30% would be too much to eat.

2. The property isn't surveyed, but we have a basic idea where the property lines are. Will the loggers harvest on the property if we set a reasonable distance from the edges of the property to harvest from?

It would be pretty expensive to have a survey done.

3. Can we get a mix of selective harvesting and clear cut?

There's a low area I'd like to clear cut to put in a fishing pond, but I'd like to keep the rest of the property forested.

thecfarm

neckbeard,welcome to the forum. We don't mind so called silly questions. That's what we are here for.
#1  The market is down in my area,BUT it depends on what kind of wood and the grade,meaning how good your wood is,too.
#2  is kinda scary. You want to get the most from your land,but you don't want to cut over the line either. I had a guy that bought a piece of land that borders mine. He thought he owned road frontage somehow. Does a neighbor know the lines?
#3  You should be able to do what you want,it's your harvest. Within the state laws.
A forester should really be called to help you out. They can save you alot of maoney and alot of grief.
The one big important thing here,if you do decide to have it cut,without a forester help,get references on a logger and than CHECK them out. We don't need to hear of a horror story. and by the way a good logger should be busy too. If someone says I will be there in 2 weeks,I would find another logger.
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neckbeard

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm going to hire a consultant. I found one guy locally, but I'd like to talk to at least two of them before I decide to hire one. We've got a basic map of the property here. Some of the markers were trees, though, so you never know if they're still standing. I might be able to get a signed agreement out of the neighbors, and might not. My dad had some trouble dealing with at least one neighbor, but I'd say the others wouldn't be a big problem. I guess I could see if there's a more accurate map at the county office.

The land is pretty rough. Lots of cliffs and hills. I don't know if a logger would want to bother or not.

WDH

1).  No, at least not here in Georgia.

2).  A Forester can help you locate a reasonable harvest boundary, but an agreement with the neighbors is the best thing next to a survey.

3).  Managing timber (silviculture) in a wetland is exempt from the Section 404 of the Clean Water Act that requires you to obtain a permit.  If your lowland is a jurisdictional wetland by definition, you cannot clearcut and convert a wetland to a non wetland use without a permit from the Corps of Engineers.  Clearcutting a wetland and building a pond in a wetland is considered a conversion (a pond is not considered a functional wetland) and requires a permit and possibly mitigation of the wetland loss except for certain agricultural exclusions.  If you do it without a permit and one was required, they will fry you.  It is likely that your lowland may not meet the definition of a jurisdictional wetland.  The local NRCS of the US Dept. of Agriculture can help.
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neckbeard

There's a an on-again off-again stream that runs through the area I was thinking of putting the pond, so it's good to know that could be a problem. I might look to locate it elsewhere.

WDH

You have to look at the soil types that are in the area of interest.  The NRCS can tell you if those soils are classed as jurisdictional wetlands or not.  The stream does not really matter, it is the type of soil contained by the pond.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Ron Wenrich

Some states require a permit to put in a pond.  Know your laws before you start pushing dirt.

First thing you have to figure out is what your objectives are for the land.  Telling a consultant or a logger that you want to cut the timber is not the way to go.  Their objective may be different from yours.  I've seen too many sales where the objective of the forester or logger was to maximize the current income.

After you figure out your objective, you need to know what you have.  Think of this as your timber portfolio.  Now is not the time to get rid of your high yielders.  You want to improve conditions for them by thinning out the low yielders.  To figure out what you have, you should have some sort of inventory.  37 acres isn't such a large area that one of these couldn't be developed with a day's worth of field work, and 1/2 day in the office going through the data.  This is your management plan to meet those objectives.

Then you determine if a harvest will meet those objectives and that it is warranted at this time.  Putting the harvest before the planning may result in your stand being high graded, and you'll have to contend with the balance of your stand for a very long time.  Current markets in my area have shown a lower market value for the high end timber.  The low end timber hasn't really lost much value, since it wasn't worth as much to begin with.  The tie market and pallet stock market has remained fairly steady.  Veneer has lost about 25% of the value, as has the higher end of the oak market.  They have also gotten tougher on the grading of veneer.  Your harvest should be to improve stocking, encourage growth in the residual stand, and encourage reproduction.  Cut the worst first, not the best.

Talk to as many consultants as you can.  Not all are the same or have the same business philosophy.  Find one that is compatible, and puts your interests first.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

neckbeard

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on June 17, 2012, 10:12:09 AM
Talk to as many consultants as you can.  Not all are the same or have the same business philosophy.  Find one that is compatible, and puts your interests first.

This is a big concern of mine. There are a couple in my area, but one has a website that says that the first step everyone should take is to sign up for this forestry stewardship plan Kentucky has. Now, this stewardship plan gives the state foresters the right to come in and look at the property when they feel the need. They only have to warn me beforehand. That's nothing I want anything to do with, so I don't think I'll even bother talking to that consultant.

Am I right to be concerned about this stewardship plan? Sounds like I'm giving the state the opportunity to cite me for minor things and/or possibly seize the property.

Ron Wenrich

I think you may be reading too much into the state's intentions.  The stewardship plans in our area can be viewed as a positive.  But, as with any plan, its only as good as the data input and the follow through.  I don't know of any cases where the state government has come in and seized property.

In our state, they can come in if they suspect a violation of the law.  Our water laws are pretty strict, and if you cross streams without bridging them, you can get a fine.  Same goes for debris in the waterways.

The state forester would be another person to get information from.  Our state forests are managed better than most private lands.   
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

neckbeard

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on June 17, 2012, 12:37:38 PM
I don't know of any cases where the state government has come in and seized property.

I'm admittedly a bit of a paranoid conspiracy theorist, but mostly I don't like the idea of signing up for something that gives them the right to come inspect the property. I don't have anything to hide, but you don't know what people will find when it comes to revenue enhancement. I look at it like driving on the highway. For the most part the cops aren't going to bother you if you're driving a little over the speed limit and staying with the flow of traffic, but every now and then they'll line up speed traps and give out as many tickets as they can.

I don't know if that makes sense or not, but mostly I'd like to keep the property private.

Claybraker

I don't know how it is in Ky, but in Georgia the state foresters are stretched pretty thin. When I had him do a stewardship plan, it mostly consisted of a windshield cruise and a written letter saying I probably should get the place thinned in the next year or two.

Filling out the paperwork for a stewardship plan is well worth it, even if it doesn't go anywhere. You have to set priorities, and decide what is important to you. In our case, we were balancing banking on the stump with forest vigor. Armed with that, I was able to find a forester who listened, and we ended up with a pretty successful transaction, all around.

I'd be much more afraid of what an unsupervised logger would do to my property than any problems from the state forestry folks.

Ron Scott

As prviously stated by others,you need to seek out the services of a professional consulting forester and develop a forest landowner stewardship plan to meet your desired objectives for the property. Be sure that your forester is certified by the State to write stewardship plans. The State may also cost share with you in having the plan written.

You stated that the property terrain is quite rough. The forester will determine the feasibility of a timber harvest on the property to meet your desired objectives. The NRCS can help you with the proposal and approvals needed for a pond development.

One of the best front end investiments in your property would be to have a certified survey of the property lines.

~Ron

neckbeard

I talked to a forester over the phone. He lives too far away to help me out without having to charge me an arm and a leg. After talking to him I'm more concerned about knowing what type of timber I've got on the property and having a general idea what it's worth myself. Are there any good guides that I could check out of the library?

There aren't any ACF foresters close, so I'm wondering if it's a big deal if I use someone not part of the ACF. How careful do I need to be?

Clark

neckbeard - Check out this link, there are several SAF certified foresters in KY, hopefully one is near you:

http://www.safnet.org/certifiedforester/findcertifiedforester.cfm

You're smart to be concerned with what type of timber is on your land.  Checking out a basic tree identification book from the library should start you in the right direction.  Knowing what that timber is worth or how much of it there is on your land is something that a forester will be able to tell you.  Tabulating volumes and then assessing value is something that is difficult to learn from a book or via someone's coaching on the net.  Using an ACF or SAF certified forester is smart, hopefully the above search will point you in the right direction.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

Claybraker

I understand your frustration. Been there myself. It's almost impossible for us NIPF types to get good information on the value of our timber sometimes without costing an arm and a leg.

Cheap sob that I am, when my family first started discussing a thinning operation, I started by contacting the state forestry folks, because:
1. It's free.
2. They don't have a financial interest in the decision.

The downside is they aren't going to be able to give you much information on the timber value, dollar wise. That's when you'll need to hire a consultant with knowledge of the local market.

But step one in the decision matrix is an inventory of what you've got, then decide what you want to do with it.

neckbeard

I honestly wouldn't mind paying someone what they're worth if I knew for certain I was going to be able to sell enough timber to recoup the cost. The ground is rough and uneven, and we're quite a ways off the road. I'm not sure if there are many loggers that would bother, and, even if they did, how much the inconvenience will cost me. We've got some nice oaks here, but I'd hate to sell every single one of them just to break even.

Claybraker

That's something a walk through with a state forester can determine pretty quick. More important than the cost, is the fact they don't have a financial interest in the decision.

You mentioned up thread being somewhat of a paranoid conspiracy theorist. That's a good thing. When it comes to selling timber, us NIPF's have the most at risk, and the least information available. If you aren't a little paranoid, then you don't understand the situation.

Phorester

I'll state up front that I'm a State forester, for Virginia. I do Forest Stewardship Plans for VA landowners in my work area for a fee. ( Not much is free anywhere anymore.)
As has been pointed out, my advice is totally objective.  I make the same salary whether I recommend that a property be clearcut entirely, or left to grow as it is for another 50 years.  So I can give a landowner exactly the advice he needs to reach his goals. More valuable timber, more deer, more squirrels, trout in his stream, scenic value, even total  preservation, etc.

Contrary to popular belief, a forest stewardship plan prepared by a Government forester does not open your land to public use.  It does not give us free rein to periodically "inspect" your property.  You are not required to follow the management recommendations in the plan. You can throw it away if you want. It is simply advice.  It's your property, you make the decisions.

But I can't give any advice on timber volumes or value, because that conflicts with private consulting foresters, who make their living doing this and offering other services. I can't conduct a timber sale for a landowner.  (As much as possible, the State of VA  can't inhibit private business unless there is a public safety issue)

So, as a government forestry agency I can offer some things that a private consultant cannot, and a private consultant can offer some things that a government agency cannot. So I always recommend that a landowner take advantage of both types of foresters.

Another thought - a timber sale should be designed around reaching some goal that you have for the property.  It could indeed be simply to gain money. But if there is the right trees, volume, access, etc., on the property, a timber sale can and should be set up to reach one or more goals you have.

Ask yourself, what do I want from this property?  A healthy forest for the future?  More grouse, more turkey, more deer?  Timber income? A pretty forest to hike, camp, bird watch in? A commercially valuable forest to pass on to my heirs? These are goals.  A timber sale is a means to reach these goals.  You manipulate tree species, ages, etc.,to reach these goals by choosing what trees are cut and also what is left for the future in a sale. A timber sale is not a goal all by itself, unless the overriding goal is to get immediate income and nothing else.

I'd say, take advantage of your State services, also take advantage of consulting foresters. But I've had some landowners who are leery of "getting involved with the State".  No problem with me.  I simply give them a list of consulting foresters to contact. 

The main thing is to get a professional forester on your property for advice.

Ron Scott

~Ron

terry f


John Mc

One thing I can tell you is don't be in a rush. Forest time frames aren't in months or years (or in many case not even in decades).  If you have an urgent financial need, you may have no choice, but if that's not the case, think about managing for the long term. 

Thin out some of the junk to free up sunlight, water, and nutrients for your better trees. There are too many folks (landowners, loggers, foresters, etc.) out there for the quick buck.  I've seen way too many forests that were "high-graded" (take the best, and leave the rest)... it's one thing if the landowner made this decision, but often they had no idea what was going on in their forest.

It's worth the upfront time to find a good forester and a good logger to work with.  This can be tough to do if you're new to this sort of thing.  In addition to the state foresters mentioned earlier (who can be a great resource), lots of states have forest landowner groups that can be a great source of information and referrals to go forest professionals.  I don't know much about your state, but others on here can probably recommend some (if you lived in Vermont or New York state, I could point you to a couple of good organizations).
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

neckbeard

I contacted a state forester. It'll be a few months before they get around to us. Is it true that it's a good rule of thumb to cut out 1 in 3 trees every five or so years? It seems there should be some mature timber and a lot of dead wood to cut out by now. Dad honestly probably didn't know much about caring for his wood. He was an old school country type. I assume the property was high-graded before my father bought it about 20 years ago. I don't mean to cut it all down, but I'd like to do a TSI to increase future value. Can I expect much value out of 37 acres of pulp/firewood grade stuff?

WDH

Not likely.  By improving the stand, you take out the culls and leave the crop trees to grow.  You are probably looking at something in the $250/acre range.
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Ianab

Those are the sort of questions the local forester should be able to help you with. If not the exact economics of harversting, they will at least be able to give you an indication of the current and future potential.

QuoteIs it true that it's a good rule of thumb to cut out 1 in 3 trees every five or so years?

Probably not. That would suggest that the trees are only 20 years old. Now if you are just harvesting pulp or firewood that might be a good rotation, but good hardwood saw logs might be 50 years of so growing. Suggesting you might want to take out 1 in 5 trees every 10 years in a mixed age forest.  Of course you might do TSI and harvest firewood from thinnings and non-commercial trees between times, and actually remove a larger number of small trees, but planning on the real harvest being the good mature trees.

But it all depends on current conditions of YOUR forest. Maybe 20 years ago it was high graded, but a useful number of 20 year old trees were left? Maybe some will now be close to harvest? Or it was basically clear cut and the oldest trees are now only 20 years, and still 30 years from being ready? Maybe your species and location take 70 years to 'mature"?

Now I'm sure there is TSI work you can do, even if it's thinning out junk or suppressed tree and selling them for firewood to cover the costs of the work. Those are the things the forester can advice you on. "Those trees over there will be good sawlogs in 10-20 years." or "The ones like this are junk, poor form, crowded and never going to amount to much"  May as well harvest those for firewood and let something better grow for future harvest.

Commercial harvesting is questionable. A commercial operator will want to get in there with machinery and recover as much wood as possible in the shortest time. Taking only low grade wood AND needing to be careful around future crop trees make the economics marginal at best. If they are recovering valuable sawlogs then a good good operator is able to take their time, reduce collateral damage and still make a profit.

Ian

Edit: WDH already covered the economics. With a smaller area like that I would be looking to do some small scale firewood harvesting and selling that to locals help cover your TSI costs. There is not any rush to do this work, if it takes a few years of weekends to get through the whole area, no big deal.
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neckbeard

http://forestry.ky.gov/LandownerServices/Pages/HarvestingandSellingYourTimber.aspx

That's a list of the type of trees that grow in our area. It ranges from 20 years to maturity for up to 90 for the maples. There are a handful of oaks, walnuts, and maples around, but the vast majority of the trees on the property are poplar. We've got several 70 foot tall poplars. I'd honestly like to try to work several more walnuts and maples in. I'd love to be able to go pick up some walnuts out of the forest.

Quote from: WDH on July 11, 2012, 08:48:53 PM
Not likely.  By improving the stand, you take out the culls and leave the crop trees to grow.  You are probably looking at something in the $250/acre range.

Well, 9k for taking out the garbage doesn't seem too bad.

MHineman

  Phorester beat me to it.  The first question to you from anyone looking to help you with your woods is "What are your goals with your woods".

  I am a small scale logger and portable sawmill owner.  I have had that conversation and ended up telling the land owner he should not cut any trees now, but a consulting forester friend of mine says I don't have that "killer instinct" of most loggers.  I prefer it that way so I can sleep well at night.
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