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Is there benefit of cutting down the depth gauge ??

Started by bodomram07, June 16, 2012, 10:43:28 AM

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bodomram07

That may seem a dump question but i'm wondering why doing that ?
Stihl MS341
Stihl MS660
Stihl TS550
Jonsered 2045 Turbo
Ford 8N 1952
Dodge Ram 2500 4X4 2007 (with
Cummins of course)

Full Chisel

I think, "Raker" is a term for a kind of cutter on milling chain.

"Cutters" are "Teeth" to others or "Bits" or technically, "Incisors." They do the work, and "Rakers" is the catalyst.

"Rakers" or "Riders," is what lets your tooth bite into the wood. They are depth gauges. During resharpening, your tooth shortens and then the wood tissue is riding on the gauge. Guys wonder why their chain won't cut after sharpening, well you just made it worse if there is no clearance for the incisor to eat. I have a buddy who is a machinist. Of all the people who should understand, he denies gauge lowering is necessary. He claims they wear down gradually with the tooth. I say knock yerself out, then.

Science is better than superstition. People who like getting around physics have gas heat. They do harness energy, though. When discussing chainsaws, there is not only a benefit to lowering your rakers, it's part of the plan.
Jed: Jethro, how's come they ain't no ice in Kali Forni-a?

Jethro: Don't look at me Uncle Jed. I didn't take it.

ladylake

 
It's a must to keep them at 25 to 30 thousands below the top of the tooth, they do not waer down.  Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

fuzzybear

The rakers allow the cutter to work. If they are too high the cutter will only take out a small amount of wood. If they are too low the cutter will bight in hard and take large amounts of wood.
  So what is the proper depth of the rakers supposed to be?, that depends on many things. The experiance of the opperator, the condition and power of the saw, and the condition of the chain.  You can take the rakers down really far and take big amounts of wood out each cut, but you are putting a huge amount of stress on the chain and run the risk of premature chain breakage. Also the the saw is more prone to kick back.
Do the rakers need to be shortened? YES  Chain makers could reduce the clearance in the factory, but they have to think about Joe Homeowner that has no clue how to properly run a chain saw. 
My thoughts are this, Play with a new chain.  Take the rakers down slightly, cut a large piece, take them down slightly each time until you can start to feel the chain bight in good, and you see good size chips. When you've reached that point that you feel comfortable the saw is cutting better than ever, take note of the clearance and try to maintain it every couple of sharpenings.
FB
I never met a tree I didn't like!!

Al_Smith

Every chain manufacturer will give the depth of the rakers .Some say they take them deeper ,I for one don't .You could end up with a jerky chain if you get too deep .Not good .Nor for that matter do I change the top plate angle .Some say they do though .Whatever floats your boat I guess .Keep in mind if you change the geometry drastically it won't cut as fast as it did coming out of the factory

FWIW a lot of race  filers only go to about 22 thou instead of the standard 25 thou on most 3/8" chisel .Instead of a big bite it takes a lot of smaller ones and holds the r's higher in the cut so they move more wood in a given amount of time .

It's all a point of discussion though as most things are . ;D

Clam77

I filed one chain down a lil farther for softer woods- birch, pine, maple.. probably close to .040 or .045 for those. 

Of course it makes the saw work it's azz off in harder woods  :D , but for softer woods where the power isn't much of an issue it's nicer to get done a lil faster. 

I wouldn't recommend it too much on hardwood unless you maybe have a smaller bar (20" or so) on a 90cc+ saw that can handle it easily.
Andy

Stihl 009, 028, 038, 041, MS362
Mac 1-40, 3-25

Ward Barnes

Howdy:  If the rakers are to high you may have a very sharp chain that still makes fine dust instead of cutting chunks.  To low and you risk pulling bigger chunks then your saw can handle and may stall out or the chain may chatter in the cut.  I have done both.  I learn more each day.

God Bless, Ward and Mary.
7 year old Stihl MS 390.  New Stihl trim saw MS 250.  Kubota BX 2200 tractor.  2005 F150 4X4.
Dull chains cause accidents.  Accidents cause shorter life spans.
You don't sharpen a chain when it gets dull.  You sharpen a chain to keep it from getting dull.

HolmenTree

Quote from: Full Chisel on June 16, 2012, 11:04:22 AM
I have a buddy who is a machinist. Of all the people who should understand, he denies gauge lowering is necessary. He claims they wear down gradually with the tooth.
Your friend is partly right to a point.
When you file your depth gauges or rakers you will have an uneven surface left on it's surface even after rounding off the leading edge at a 45. Then after 8 hours of normal cutting that surface will be worn and polished smooth, with almost the perfect angle as the cutter and depth guage are positioned in the kerf.
But actual lowering of the depth gauge would take a very long time way past the life of the chain.

Special caution has to be practiced with todays aggressive sawchain. Everyone in the know wants the Stihl RS 3/8 chisel chain or the Oregon LGX or LPX equivalent.
For the last 10 years or so the two companies seem to be in a "who has a sharper chain" war. The angles ground today in these cutters are more and more aggressive and any premature lowering of the depth gauges  can mean disaster in a serious kickback injury.
Todays round ground sawchain from Stihl and Oregon has the same aggressive side plate [hook] angles as what I put into round filed race chain long ago back in the day. On a stock appearing chainsaw for competition the chain cut the best filed back to 2/3rds and the depth gauges were left untouched as they came from the factory. At 2/3rds cutter size the depth gauges are  .010-.015 thou.
Proved over and over again by the stop watch the .010 setting had faster cutting speed then being reset at .025.

So remember, if you maintain the aggressive sideplate angles in todays sawchain with the round file, you'll have to wait a while before you use the flat file.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Al_Smith

I don't even bother to check the rakers until the chain is about 1/2 worn out .

Now my little bud that owns the tree service is another story .He can file real good but he makes the chain too aggressive .Way too deep on the rakers as far as I'm concerned .I mean if you cut into a log with one of his saws you'd better hang on to it tight else it might get pulled out of your hands from that chain .

I don't like them that way .You take a powerfull saw like an 066 that bucks and snorts you could get hurt real easily if you don't watch it .

Full Chisel

Quote from: HolmenTree on June 17, 2012, 10:09:04 PM
Quote from: Full Chisel on June 16, 2012, 11:04:22 AM
I have a buddy who is a machinist. Of all the people who should understand, he denies gauge lowering is necessary. He claims they wear down gradually with the tooth.
Your friend is partly right to a point.
When you file your depth gauges or rakers you will have an uneven surface left on it's surface even after rounding off the leading edge at a 45. Then after 8 hours of normal cutting that surface will be worn and polished smooth, with almost the perfect angle as the cutter and depth guage are positioned in the kerf.
Special caution has to be practiced with todays aggressive sawchain. Everyone in the know wants the Stihl RS 3/8 chisel chain or the Oregon LGX or LPX equivalent.
For the last 10 years or so the two companies seem to be in a "who has a sharper chain" war. The angles ground today in these cutters are more and more aggressive and any premature lowering of the depth gauges  can mean disaster in a serious kickback injury.
So remember, if you maintain the aggressive sideplate angles in todays sawchain with the round file, you'll have to wait a while before you use the flat file.
My machinist friend is talking a different language than you. He simply wants to run things in the ground. When I hear expressions like, "Don't fix it if it ain't broke." or "Let's play it by ear," I picture this particular friend with a lit cigarette dangling into the primaries of a Quadrajet while he's reaching under to tap on a starter with a screwdriver handle. Stubbornness flat out overshadows logic. He would sooner blow something up and rely on superior mechanical skills to bail himself out than apply a cost vs. benefit analysis to justify oil changes and sharp tools. He's partly right to the point where life is viewed as a struggle.

I grind the rakers against a depth stop with a specially profiled wheel; top ones then bottom ones, (horizontal jig),  verify with micrometer. Some light tuning with the file on the bar just to smooth out the marks. I'll stick with Stihl factory settings on Depth Gauge clearance. None of my Stihls have a problem with lower rakers, though. There is no one to race against in the woods. Sharp chain like is riding a bike; once you get it, you got it.

For most concerns here, 36 Rapid Super is the only cutter shape specified, though picco chain for the climbing saws has only been offered in a micro cutter shape.

Preventing kickbacks involves training and practice. I've not been cut by a chainsaw, and the only kickbacks I have seen were neutralized by the chain brake--maintenance required there.
Jed: Jethro, how's come they ain't no ice in Kali Forni-a?

Jethro: Don't look at me Uncle Jed. I didn't take it.

Al_Smith

Did a little test using a stock 200T with both pico and rapid pico .About 1 second diff on a poplar 8 by 8 one cut .

I also square filed ,dog boned and tweeked  a 14" loop of rapid pico for a race chain .It was of course faster but nobody other than a gearhead would take the time to do such stuff .It certainly would not be used in tree work .

John Mc

Quote from: HolmenTree on June 17, 2012, 10:09:04 PM
Special caution has to be practiced with todays aggressive sawchain. Everyone in the know wants the Stihl RS 3/8 chisel chain or the Oregon LGX or LPX equivalent.
For the last 10 years or so the two companies seem to be in a "who has a sharper chain" war. The angles ground today in these cutters are more and more aggressive and any premature lowering of the depth gauges  can mean disaster in a serious kickback injury.
Todays round ground sawchain from Stihl and Oregon has the same aggressive side plate [hook] angles as what I put into round filed race chain long ago back in the day. ...

So remember, if you maintain the aggressive sideplate angles in todays sawchain with the round file, you'll have to wait a while before you use the flat file.

Tell me about it. Seems like this started happening in the last couple of years. I really don't like all the hook they put in those chains. It might be OK if you're bucking logs where you can get to them easily, but I don't like that profile at all for felling. I do a fair amount of bore cutting, and they can really chatter. Things usually smooth out after I've sharpened them once or twice, but it's a pain in the neck until they get to that point. 

I wish they'd go back to the old profile.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

HolmenTree

To add to what you were just saying John,
I bought a couple loops of Husqvarna rebadged 73LGX chain recently. They look like they were made up in the factory in the last 6 mths because they now have a top /side plate angle I never saw before on their chain.
They ground what looks like a unfinished square ground bevel angle in the side plate near the working corner, even though the chain is round ground. The chain cuts real quick for right out of the box chain.
I'd post a pic of it if I could figure out how to do it.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

John Mc

My other trouble with that nasty hook (aside from how "grabby" it is), is that that long thin point just doesn't hold up well.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

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