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How Much Do I Pay For Timber?

Started by Tome, March 01, 2004, 08:16:45 PM

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Tome

I looked at a small patch of timber today and I need some help.  I counted 102 red and white oak trees ranging from 12 inches to 30.  I measured each tree, DBH, then came home and calculated how many bf were in the first 12 feet of each tree.  I know because of the taper the bf  isn't totally accurate but it gave me an idea of how many bf were in the first log. My total bf came to 17,800 for the first twelve foot logs off the trees.

My question is, how much can I pay this guy and still make a profit?  I know this may be impossible for anyone to address with any accuracy, but any help would be appreciated.

I was told that he wanted $2000 for his part, is that too much?

Thanks,
Tom

BW_Williams

Tom, contact your local forestry dept.  they will know the "form factor" for your area and you will be able to calculate bf better.  They should know the stumpage value also.  Good luck  BWW
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Buzz-sawyer

Hey Tom
To me sounds a tad high.....your bdft estimate seems off have you tri9ed the great online calculators on this forum....they calculate taper too
remember doyle scale underestimates small tree vollum  (your advantage)
and chances are good you will get 16 ft out of most logs...even with those benefits, it still sounds like your paying bout 4 times to much, for primarily blocking grade stuff...I just made deal on stuff 12-20 dbh .....20,000 bdft for 1000 bucks....all blocking I will make into ties
Don








    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

Ron Scott

Yes, contact your local conservation district forester, state service forester, extension service forester, or a professional consulting forester serving your area for the timber values and associated markets in your area.

You might even have one of them check cruise your volume figures if you have not done a lot of volume estimates in standing oak. You will want to be close in your figures and try for an over run in your harvest and milling for added profit.

There use to be a USDA-Forest Service Ranger station there in Poplar Bluff. They may be able to provide you with some help also.
~Ron

Ron Wenrich

If you're going to cruise timber, you better learn to do it the right way or your numbers are pretty much meaningless.

Trees are measured by dbh and the number of 16' merchantible logs to the closest half log.  A merchantible top may be down to 8" or down to the first major "Y".  Don't be looking a limbs and be figuring logs.  That will inflate it too much, and you will probably lose them due to breakage.

There are several different log rules.  In my area, most loggers use Doyle.  They also sell their logs by Doyle scale, so they understand it better.  Many foresters use International, since it gives a closer estimate to what you'll saw out.  You might even do a little better with a band mill.

Form Class refers to the amount of taper.  Young trees and some species will taper pretty quick.  Older trees don't taper as quick.  For most estimates, a Form Class of 78 does fine on hardwoods.  

Its hard to tell the volume from your data.  It sounds like they're pretty decent sized trees since you average 171 bf on just a 12' butt.  Did you reduce the dbh for bark and taper or just leave it the same?

A lot will depend on quality.  But, $2000 is only $20/tree.  That sounds low for my neck of the woods.  Even using your figures, its just a little over $112/Mbf.  Oak in my area goes for 4-5 times that much.

If the quality is good, you should sell off the butts for veneer.  You'll never cut out the value when you consider time and expenses.

To figure value, stumpage = log value - logging costs.  Profit should be part of the logging cost.  Log value = lumber value - mfg costs.  That's why it is important to know costs and yield values.  Barring that, you might find stumpage or log values for your area by talking to your county forester.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Tome

Thanks guys,  as usual you are a great help.  I am going to contact my local forester tomorrow and hopefully get some direction.  

I'm probably a little anxious to get my swingblade in action but I don't want to price myself out of any profit.

redpowerd

what are you doing with the wood?
NO FARMERS -- NO FOOD
northern adirondak yankee farmer

Tome

I'll be selling grade lumber to the local buyer and the rest to a pallet mill. Any suggestions?  There is a local stave buyer who buys white oak logs I think I may go see him today also.  The only veneer buyer I know of is about sixty miles away but it may be worth the trip.

thanks, tom

Buzz-sawyer

Hey Tom
Are you going to Independent Stave? I saw one of thier trucks way up here the other day....they will buy your logs whole...they wanna cut to specs...BUT it is the way to go sell them ALL that wont make venner....I am not sure bout them specifically....but, stave market has been strong (white oak) 80cent average in round for common stuff.
If you can cut cants then why not ties? I sell to buyers close to you for bout 45 cents foot...most pallet mills pay 26 -36 cents....just a thought.
Don
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J_T

Around here we don't ask to many people about value on a track of timber or you could start a bidding war.I use advice I get here except I stay away from State offices and such I would go on Ron Wenrich figures and leave the locals alone as I would not trust to many till the deal was done. 8)
Jim Holloway

Frickman

I agree with the other guys in that you need to talk to a consulting forester. If they were in my area, mostly sound, and accesible I'd be pulling out the checkbook today at that price.
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Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

Tome

I talked to two foresters today and both told me if my information was correct that the price was in the ballpark.  They also gave me a chart that is more accurate in estimating the bf.  I was a couple thousand feet high the best I could figure, but still I believe if I can buy it for the two grand I will.  It will be a learning lesson either way.

Thanks guys, I'll let you know how it turns out.

J_T

Offer1500 they might say 1750 never know till you try .
Jim Holloway

ScottAR

Scott
"There is much that I need to do, even more that I want to do, and even less that I can do."
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Buzz-sawyer

Go get em....! and get sime pics if ya can.
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

Tome

QuoteGo get em....! and get sime pics if ya can.

I made a verbal agreement on the timber today, he wanted 2500 but we settled on 2000.  I walked the land over again and it is even better than I thought, with more trees than I had first counted.  He was happy and so was I. :) :)

Does anyone know of a timber contract form to sign?

I'll take some pics and get my niece to put them up as I don't know how.  

Thanks again guys I appreciate all the imput.  I'll let you know how it cuts out.



Bro. Noble

How far are you from Mtn. View?  We sell grade lumber there and have been well pleased with the buyer.  We sell ties and pallet stock in West Plaines.

Independant Stave has a mill at Seymour Mo.  but there is probably one closer to you.  I think they have a mill in Poplar Bluff.


we all wish you success and look forward to hearing how things work out.
milking and logging and sawing and milking

Jeff

You can find an example timber contract to the left in the toobox. Remember. Its just an example. It can be changed to fit the situations needs.
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logbutcher

IMHO : Cruising w a Consulting Forester is worth his cut in $$ for all parties. A win-win-win and no bickering later on the "worth" after the sale. No difference whether for pulp, veneer, sawlogs, even firewood from the tops.
Most of the foresters will walk w you and your owner for a per diem fee. They know the regional market, know value at the stump.        8)



luke

It may be a good idea to get a certified forester to estimate the standing board footage because there are measurements and calculations that need to be done and a forester knows those measurements and calculations, usually the trees will be numbered before harvested by the forester.  Price of the timber will depend somewhat on the quality of the timber, age, species etc.  I was offered a tract of timber for sale with 400,000 board feet of timber with 98,000 of that being red oak, the rest white oak, chestnut oak, yellow poplar etc. add it all together and divide and  that comes to an average of $ 0.13 a board foot on the stump, but the red oak trees were about 12" -18" breast height kind of small so that may knock the value down somewhat.  I have calculated similar tracts of timber for sale with minimum bids and their prices comes out around $.13 to $.17 a board foot on the stump.  A forester will know what generation timber it is also, which may have some effect on the quality of the timber and price.

If you want to try and learn yourself you may want to learn the "point sampling prism method" and learn how to use a biltmore stick, also some "calculus" will help.

Luke
Checking into grade sawing, building a dry kiln and moulding machines.

Ron Wenrich

Point sampling is covered over in the knowledge base.  Its a 3 part article:

https://forestryforum.com/tips/tips.cgi?display:1010359123-3833.txt

https://forestryforum.com/tips/tips.cgi?display:1010359141-3837.txt

https://forestryforum.com/tips/tips.cgi?display:1010359154-3844.txt

Not to many guys use this method, but I've found it to be the quickest method to gather data and to map an area.  The accuracy level depends on your cruising ability.  

The prism or basal area gauge is a good tool to use in thinning operations.  You can get your stand down to the optimum stocking levels for growth.  This isn't used in a lot of the woods I see.  Diameter limit cuttings are more the norm.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

mrelmertoots

I did a small patch of timber last year and got paid by the board ft. and by the ton on pallet logs. The guy had been offered $9000 for the timber. When I got done he got over $13000 for his timber. He had some veneer white Oak and walnut which the buyer came out and bought at the job. He also had some very nice popular that he got  50 cents per ft. for. The patch also had lots of low grade logs which averaged 30 cents per ft. I delivered it to the local mill for 15 cents per ft. and $20 per ton for the pallet logs. By cutting out the middle man the guy made an extra $4000 on the timber. He made the deals with the saw mills and the veneer buyer and all checks were made out to him. I got paid for my work and he made a good profit. Sometimes around here the timber buyers are not above  stealing timber, but in this case I think the buyer was trying to be fair with a $9000 offer. I'm mostly in the excavating business and this timber cutting is just a side line cause I don't wan to buy any timber. I usally get timber from salvage on jobs so doing this job was easy for me. I also built a pond for the guy on his property.

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