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How much productivity gain from converting manual mill to hydraulic?

Started by WoodenHead, June 20, 2012, 09:43:59 PM

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WoodenHead

I have a WM LT28 and I've been sawing on and off for a few months now.  Although I can be mobile, we're setup stationary right now.  With an off-bearer and the right sized logs (16"-18" seems to work best for me) at times we can reach the production numbers that are suggested by WM.  Clamping and turning are the slowest tasks by far, then comes leveling, loading logs, making the cut, determining cutting depth, and finally head return.  The off-bearer up this point has been able to keep up removing labs, edging and finished boards as well as clamping and rotating.

Now to my question.  Recently I've been contemplating adding hydraulics to speed things up.  I've read various posts about mods made to manual mills.  I can see a how I could add a hydraulic log turner and/or a two plane clamp, toe rollers, a log loader as well as hydraulic back stops.  The question is:  Will mods to a manual mill really increase my productivity?

I've read posts where some (of considerable wisdom) have recommended simply to trade in the manual mill for a hydraulic, rather than trying to convert it to hydraulic.  I would like to understand why this is recommended over modifying a manual mill.

In my case the cost difference between the LT28 (manual) and LT35 (with hydraulics) was about $6000.  I almost changed my mind after the 30 day trial period to upsize to the LT35 and I have mixed feelings as to whether I should have or not.  It still seems cheaper to me to try to modify the LT28 to give the hydraulic features of the LT35.  Taking things beyond the LT35 level I can understand the wisdom of trading in.

So, for those of you who have done conversions from manual to hydraulic (even if it is not a woodmizer), do you notice the difference in output in a day or week?     
 

pineywoods

IT all just depends.....there's a bunch of things to consider..and your case is probably a little different from anyone else. From a purely productivity viewpoint, I'd suggest putting a stopwatch on the sawing of one typical log and document just how much time is spent loading,turning, and leveling from start to finish. Hydraulics will reduce that time by at least half, maybe more depending on the type of logs etc. sawing patterns etc. Then there's the convenience and safety considerations, something thats hard to reduce to numbers..I can't give you any hard numbers, I can only tell you what my experience has been. I didn't spend a lot of money on my hydraulic addition, but I did spend a lot of time perfecting the pieces to the point where it works pretty much like I wanted. I'm a part time hobby operation, but if the hydraulics don't work, the mill don't run...

Now for your other question, when is it better to trade up ?
Again, it depends on your personal situation.. Definitely cheaper to build your own if you can do your own fabrication and have the time to do so..Some folks don't. Talk to others who have done so..  I have built hydraulic systems minus a loader, on 3 different woodmizer lt40's. I know of 2 lt28's, 1 lt15, and possibly 2 others...There's no doubt that the factory systems are definitely much better, especially when it comes to support, but that's all reflected in the cost...
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

woodyone.john

Saw millers are just carpenters with bigger bits of wood

WoodenHead

Thanks Piney.  I've read most of your posts on the mods you have made for yourself and for others.  That actually inspired me to think of modifications for myself as well.  No doubt you spent a lot of time trying to perfect all of the pieces.

In my first full time job all manufacturing support staff were trained in how to analyze production steps, identify bottle necks and improve them.  Much of it was common sense.  Your suggestion to use a stop watch is bang on.  I haven't gone that far yet, but I have mentally broken it down into each sub task and estimate relative length of time.  The list mentioned in my post is a summary of that.

My father who is now 80 loves to weld.  He's been doing it since arc welding first came about.  He was trained as a blacksmith in Europe.  He came to Canada in the 50's and eventually owned his own shop fixing farm equipment.  He worked as a mechanic too, but welding and fabrication are his passion.  He is still in great demand by the local farmers.  He also regulary builds steel frames for high-end heritage signs.  He works because he loves to.  So he's my source of help if I need something unique made.   

This post is getting on in length, but this information may be useful to those thinking of purchasing a woodmizer mill.  The LT28 and 35 are very similar mills.  I can add hydraulics to the LT28 and it will become more like the LT35, but without a complete make-over it will never be like an LT40 series mill.  The difference is the head.  The head feed and return speed is faster on the LT40.  The LT40 is built for higher HP engines which means faster sawing.  I found out the hydraulic pump is the same for the LT35H as it is for the LT40H.  The LT40SH and up uses two of the same pump for faster hydraulics.

I don't regret starting out with a manual mill.  I did not and still don't know the full extent of my market.  I didn't even know if I liked sawing when I first started.  As others have posted, I wanted to keep my investment small and upgrade later as things improve.  However, knowing what I know now, I should have spent a little more money on an LT40 manual.  The upgrade opportunities are much better with this mill.   

bandmiller2

A hydraulic clamp/turner is the best addition you can make to your mill,as Piney says, I wouldn't mill without it.Besides saving your back it will keep you safely away from the turning log.Do some engineering and build a unit that bolts in,if done right it will add to the value of your mill.Cobbled, crappy looking devices give us home engineers a bad name. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Magicman

Do not discount the idea of buying a used LT40SH, etc.  Debarker, Accuset, dual hydraulics, two plane clamping, larger engine, etc. are all there for productivity reasons.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

WoodenHead

Thanks for the responses.  I think for now I'll add some hydraulic features and see where that gets me.  All mods that I do will be such that the mill can be restored to its original condition (i.e. bolt on only with existing holes and no new welds on the frame).

I did and do have my eye on the used market, but it's been a bit difficult finding something in decent shape for a reasonable price that is not too far from me.  Plus I already have too many "holes/pits" to through money into. :)  I think I'll focus on maximizing what I have.  Ultimately I think I would like to end up with the LT40SH electric for a stationary setup.

hackberry jake

I have been pondering hydraulics as well. My main concern isn't my time, it's my back.
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

pineywoods

Quote from: hackberry jake on June 21, 2012, 10:38:22 AM
I have been pondering hydraulics as well. My main concern isn't my time, it's my back.

A very valid concern. You only have 1, and if you mess it up, chances of repair are slim. Mine is 76 years old and worn, was a major reason for developing add-on hydraulics. As I said in another post, if the hydraulics don't work, the mill don't run..
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

hackberry jake

Mines only 26, but it's been a rough 26. I sprained it when I was 20 and it hasn't been the same since. I was laid up for a week on the recliner. Being 6'4" makes everything hard on the back. It would be easier for me to sit on a public water fountain than it would be to dring out of it. I blame ignorance, atv racing, and an attraction to physical labor for my bad back. After I'm done with this fence project I have been working on, I will order the parts for the hydraulic conversion.
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

hamish

I have a very manual mill (a Norwood ML26), versus going hydraulic, I just made things easier, built a log deck, got things at the height that work for me, with 14-18" logs with a competant off bearer I can easily mill well over 1000bf in a day (usually nearer 2000bf).  Bigger logs produce more lumber plain and simple.  Dogging and clamping are the biggest time consumers for me, yet have found ways to reduce the need
Norwood ML26, Jonsered 2152, Husqvarna 353, 346,555,372,576

Brucer

Quote from: pineywoods on June 20, 2012, 11:02:40 PM
... I'd suggest putting a stopwatch on the sawing of one typical log and document just how much time is spent loading,turning, and leveling from start to finish. Hydraulics will reduce that time by at least half, maybe more depending on the type of logs etc. sawing patterns etc. ..

That's only a small part of the picture. How many hours in your working day do you actually run the mill? How many hours do you spend doing other stuff (bucking and staging logs, cleaning logs, shoveling sawdust, disposing of slabs, piling wood, etc.)?

If you upgrade and increase the output per operating hour, then you are going to have to spend more time doing "other stuff". That means you'll actually be running the mill less.

By all means, upgrade to save your back (I did). But if you want to increase the output of your mill operation take a good look where you are spending the most time.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

chelle

I just finished the conversion of my Norwood LM 2000 to hydraulic and what a difference it makes. It's really enjoyable to mill now. Manual is fine for home/farm use but if your going to make any $ at it then speeding things up is great not to mention the back strain. I didn't mind milling timbers before but when I got a B&B siding job I thought it would never end. My Drive, backstops and log clamp/ turner are hydro and my vertical up down is 12v. I can see adding toe boards and more in the future. I figure it cost me about a grand as I didn't have many parts on hand so I became very well known at my local princess auto. I am a fabricator/welder full time so many of my parts (hydro tank, log clamp, etc) I was able to make at work. All the welding and drilling were done in my shop. I'm very happy with the way it turned out.

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