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need more production

Started by timberjack97, June 05, 2012, 08:10:20 PM

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timberjack97

my  workers started a new job their cuting logs and paper wood on it with a timbco and a cable skidder  its some what hilly  about a 2o minute  skid one way their are getting 1 tractor trailer loads out a day i think it should be more than that a day what do you guys think?

Woodhauler

Do you work with these guys? So many variables in your questions to give a answer!
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timberjack97

yes i do i run the log loader on the landing

loader man

did you get rid of your loader operator?
God Bless The Little Ones Who Make The Future

timberjack97


chevytaHOE5674

I'm guessing the Timbco operator is laying the wood down in bunches? If so the cable skidder is slowing you down. Also a 20min skid is a long ways.

WDH

A timbco feller and a cable skidder are very poorly matched.  That skidder can never hope to do justice to the felling capabilities of the timbco.
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bill m

I have more questions than answers. How are you running this operation? Are they skidding tree length and you are bucking and sorting at the landing? Is the timbco operator bunching for the skidder? How easy is it for the skidder operator to set chokers? Is the skidder able to keep up with the timbco or are there logs left in the woods at the end of the day? How big is the wood? How many logs to a trailer load? Is the timbco operator utilizing the whole tree or is he just taking it to the first limb? How long does it take the skidder to leave the landing, get a hitch of logs and return to the landing? How many hours a day are you on the job and how many of those hours are productive ( cutting and loving wood ) and nonproductive ( coffee breaks, lunch, repairs, planing next move, fueling equipment etc.) I am sure there are other questions others may have. When you can answer all of these questions you should be able to see where you can improve things to increase production.
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OntarioAl

bill m poses some very good questions that will set you in a positive direction to increase production.
I have two observations
1/ Are you skidding up hill to your landing?
2/ Twenty minutes one way is a long skid, can you reposition your landing to shorten the skidding distance?
Take heart as your crew gells and starts to work as a team production will also rise as everyone becomes more profficiant at their respective jobs.
Al
Al Raman

duckslayingpro

Are you getting 1 load total for the day or 1 load of logs and 1 load of pulp a day.
20 minutes to a drag is way to long. like said before is it possible to move the deck? how long have you been on this tract of timber?
you should get more production out in a day. handfalling and with a cable skidder we can cut and pull around 5000ft load on about 6 hr day.

leeroyjd

   20 minutes one way does'nt seem horrible.Yes  5 min would be much better,but I've seen many jobs with a time like that.
Is someone on  the ground with a chainsaw limbing/topping trees?Following the Timbco so to speak.If so bunches need to be fanned out if possible.
    It might be well worth it  to pay someone to spend a day at your site as a consultant.

smwwoody

TJ 97

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Jamie_C

At 1 truck load a day you are probably only covering the bills for the skidder ... that is if you are extremely lucky. A feller buncher teamed up with a cable skidder is certainly not a match made in heaven. You really should be using a grapple skidder, its what they are designed for and you turn around times would improve greatly.

That being said if all you have at your disposal is the cable skidder then i would suggest walking in and watching how things work and see if you can gain any efficiencies. Maybe the buncher can put the wood up differently so the skidder operator can get the chokers hooked up quicker. If your skidding an entire bunch and wrapping the mainline around it then maybe the buncher operator can keep his bunches somewhat uniform in size so the skidder guy doesn't have to try to break them apart. Lots of things that can be looked at to improve production.


Corley5

How long have you been in this business TJ97  ???
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snowstorm

years back i had a tracked buncher and usually it was pulled with a cable skidder. it makes it much eaiser if the butts are so the cable will go under it quickly. even if you have to cut a small tree and lay it sideways so the bunch is off the ground. i have asked along with several others where you are you wont say. it would help if we knew where so we had an idear of the ground and wood you are working with. limbing prebunched wood is not fun with a chain saw. how many times dose the skidder driver get off on the way out to get the rest of the limbs?

Ron Wenrich

How far ahead is the feller compared to the cable skidder?  An extra set of chokers dropped off an hooked up for the next turn would help the skidder operator.  Then its just hook and go.  And who does the chasing on the landing?
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

lumberjack48

I just don't know where to start with this, its not the cable skidders fault. I ran cable with a buncher, it only takes a minute to hook. I had a chocker bell on the end of the line so my first chocker was as long as i needed it. Then i had 5 more hung up if needed.

The Timco operator has to be working with the skidder operator, laying the timber for easy, easy hooken. If its taking this long to make a turn, the Timco operator has time to limb it and hook.

Don't over load the skidder, the skidder should go just about as fast loaded as empty.

TJ97 you have to be right out there first thing in the morning to make sure the guys are hustling. The skidder operator doesn't have time to be limbing.

I sure wish i was on the job, i don't think your help would.

I could pull one load by myself !!!
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

Jamie_C

lumberjack48 ... there should be know way in the world that a cable skidder could keep up to a feller buncher. If you have 1 cable skidder keeping up to a feller buncher then somebody needs to find a new buncher operator ASAP. The general ratio is closer to 2 grapple skidders per feller buncher.

As for the operator of the buncher getting out of the machine to limb trees and hook up chokers ... up here that would get the buncher operator fired in 5 seconds ... if the buncher isn't cutting trees then the company isn't making any revenue ... this whole problem is he has grossly mismatched equipment ... it's like trying to move dirt away from dump trucks with a kids plastic toy shovel and wondering why you can't shovel quick enough

Gary_C

Quote from: Corley5 on June 06, 2012, 01:11:54 PM
How long have you been in this business TJ97  ???

And how do we know he is actually in this business? Some pictures would be nice.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

barbender

Jamie, I think what LJ48 is getting at is if the bottleneck is at the skidder, then the Timbco operator should have plenty of time to limb and help hook chokers. Otherwise he is just laying down wood that isn't getting skid. He should be able to lay down their 1 load in an hour, run 3-4 hours and get a few loads down, then switch roles and go help the skidder.
Too many irons in the fire

Jamie_C

Quote from: barbender on June 07, 2012, 10:12:10 AM
Jamie, I think what LJ48 is getting at is if the bottleneck is at the skidder, then the Timbco operator should have plenty of time to limb and help hook chokers. Otherwise he is just laying down wood that isn't getting skid. He should be able to lay down their 1 load in an hour, run 3-4 hours and get a few loads down, then switch roles and go help the skidder.

I can't think of a worse way to solve a poor production issue than by slowing down your fastest machine, it would be far better to hire somebody to maybe limb and set chokers in the woods than it would be to shut down your main revenue producing machine. If the feller buncher isn't working then all future revenue is stopped.

I would really like to know just exactly how this operation works ... where and how are the tree's being de-limbed, where and how are the logs / "paper" wood being junked up & sorted ... so many questions and no answers ... seems like this operation is a comedy of errors

Corley5

Yup, no answers from the person asking the questions  :-\
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

lumberjack48

Any timber fell ahead has to be limbed and toped or your going to really lose weight.

The thing is that fastest machine isn't making a dime it the wood isn't on the landing. If i seen the Temco operator watching the skidder operator limbing, i would be very unhappy with him.

I hired two guys , first day, i asked how much wood did you get out. We didn't get nothing out we fell all day, i said, so in other words nobody made a dime.

I did this 30 yrs, if i was there i would fix this real quick, we have to may guys setting around waiting for the other guy to get it done. The bottleneck is the help.
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

Jamie_C

lj48 ... i somewhat agree with you and somewhat disagree with you

The longer trees are left sitting unprocessed the more weight they lose.

However ....

In 99.99% of todays more mechanised forestry operations machines are considered to be making money as long as they are working themselves. Each individual machine needs to make "rate" at it's job. The company won't see any true revenue until the wood crosses the scales at the mill but if the machines aren't working then the wood can't hit the road. I will say it again, when you shut down the machine that every other machine in your operation depends on then all future revenue stops. Machine availability and productive use of that machinery make or break companies nowadays. It is not a productive use of a feller buncher to have it parked while the operator is out playing with a chainsaw.

If your feller buncher is leaving burying your skidder then your problem is the skidding operation not the bunching operation. If the skidder can't keep up either figure out a way to make the skidder more productive without effecting the feller bunchers productivity or find more skidding power.

I have been in this business for 20 years both supervising and running everything from chainsaws to modern harvesting equipment. I have never once heard of slowing down your fastest or better producing machine to solve poor production in a different machine. You need to have enough "support equipment" to keep up with your primary machine otherwise you are wasting your primary machines potential to earn revenue.


lumberjack48

This is all preschool stuff your explaining to me, i know how it all works. I wanted volume on the landing not laying in the woods. I got payed 80% every Friday on the landing.

The way this is going i could hand fell it and get more wood out, the skidder would never set longer 90 seconds with me hook-en.

I watched all this big equipment ruin the logging industry. I remember hearing it won't be long you won't see a saw in the woods or a man on the ground. It was sad watching everybody losing their job.
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

Jamie_C

Quote from: lumberjack48 on June 07, 2012, 04:35:14 PM
This is all preschool stuff your explaining to me, i know how it all works. I wanted volume on the landing not laying in the woods. I got payed 80% every Friday on the landing.

The way this is going i could hand fell it and get more wood out, the skidder would never set longer 90 seconds with me hook-en.

I watched all this big equipment ruin the logging industry. I remember hearing it won't be long you won't see a saw in the woods or a man on the ground. It was sad watching everybody losing their job.

But to the original poster i think it is calculus


jd540b

TJ-From the constant questions, it seems you are way over your head.  Maybe better off to downsize to you and a cable skidder........may shed some light on the whole game.  Just seems as though these would've all been good questions to ask before hitting the woods with all the iron and guys.  Logging is not an easy racket and the difference between making money and losing (lots of it) is very small.

snowstorm

Quote from: Gary_C on June 07, 2012, 08:50:17 AM
Quote from: Corley5 on June 06, 2012, 01:11:54 PM
How long have you been in this business TJ97  ???

And how do we know he is actually in this business? Some pictures would be nice.
a lot of us are thinking the same thing

lumberjack48

Its common math, take a piece of paper, start with the Gross, and figure where you can Net the most.
TJ97 you have to help us out here.

More equipment doesn't always mean more production or more profit.

I went that route, Trucks, help, Skidders, Feller-buncher, it seamed like i spent more time moving block to block.
I used a lot of paper, pencils and erasers over the yrs trying to cover high stumpage with volume. It gets to be work just trying to make it work, you can only stretch the dollar in so many places.

Jamie_C  i wasn't pointing nothing toward you, i get so frustrated i wish i could jump up an get it done.
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

Jamie_C

lj48 ... don't worry i know the feeling

this guy comes on here with all these questions and never seems to answer ours, if he would maybe we could give him better info ... we are all just speculating with what little info he gives

timberjack97

hey guys i have been in  the logginh business since  1995   i have a loader with a buck saw on  it  on the landing a husky 235  loader on a trailer we are doing all the deliming by hand in the woods and using the timbco to just cut down with

clww

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Ed_K

I don't know?My last big job I had a chopper cutting,limbing and some times helping chock.He worked 8 to 4.My skidder operator with a rented 540 worked 8 to 12.I bucked and sorted on the landing with a 4x4 tractor with bucket and a grapple hanging off it.I work 8 to 6 and we had a trailer load every day.112mbf 320 cords fire wood & 160ton of softwood pulp.
I'm now down to working by myself.Just wish there was a few jobs for a cut,skid & process one man band right now.
What kills me is giving a lot of the $ to insurance.
Ed K

treefarmer87

i second what lumberjack 48 says also. also pay att. to what the vetrans tell you, they have been through it before. more production isnt always better, quailty might be, its according to what you are doing. if you can go to work and not have breakdowns its always a + :)
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Mark K

A good friend of mine runs a timco in his operation. We contract for the same mill so I see him often. He runs two cable skidders, a JD 640d and a 640g3. When the Timco starts in the morning it doesnt stop cutting till it is shut off at night. He cuts mainly hardwood. He bunchs with the timco and tops with it where he can other than that its the skidder operators responsibility to top and hook. Machine is to valuable to have just sitting around. He starts cutting at 7 am and stops at 4 to do maintence on whatever needs to be done. The skidders keep running until most of the wood is cleaned up. He has four employees, mostly family. I've seen them skid well into the night to keep up.
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WDH

I would think that a timbco feller buncher is way too much felling machine for one cable skidder like has been previously said.  An operation that is not relatively balanced is just not efficient.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

chevytaHOE5674

Years back I limbed and topped bunches and also hand felled the larger saw timber trees that the buncher couldn't handle. Operation was me in the woods limbing, topping, and felling, a tracked JD hotsaw feller buncher, a JD cable/grapple skidder, and a loader/slasher on the landing.

At times it was all I could do to keep up with the buncher with the limbing and topping and also felling. On certain jobs (flat ground, easy timber, etc) the skidder and myself would have to work OT to catch up to the single buncher. That skidder was never sitting around he was going full bore all day.

Therefor with a good buncher operator I don't see how a single cable skidder can keep up, especially with a 20min skid.

WDH

Here in the South, the common set-up for clearcuts is one buncher and two grapple skidders.  With that set-up, the bottleneck is still the skidders.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

We were thinning a block with brush saws that was 150 acres in size with 12 cutters. Everyone has a work strip defined by ribbons and when done a strip you just leap frog to the next available. Anyway, we had to drive past a chipper set up on a yard. There was a processor cutting and piling down in bunches for two grapple skidders. This was on a side hill and lots of rocks on the surface, some as big as skidder tires. This was a mixed hardwood (maple-birch) with red spruce and fir. Everything came out whole tree and the chipper cleaned up the top wood and loaded chip vans. The spruce was piled down roadside. They were a 5 day work week cutting 50 acres. The woods in that area run about 24-28 cords/acre I would think. It was a site never cut before, but don't let that fool ya because the average size would not be huge, maybe 10". With 20"-40" hardwood scattered in it. The big hardwood would mostly be hollow or rotten centre. Mostly because the site is a pretty tough place to grow. Up on a wind swept ridge, sand and bouldery glacial till.
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1 Thessalonians 5:21

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NWP

According to posts back in June 2010, TJ97 had a cable and a grapple skidder.  I guess he must of gotten rid of the grapple skidder.  The learning curve must be a long one. :D 
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