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Need advice on building a log arch from available steel

Started by chainsaw_louie, May 31, 2012, 11:12:08 PM

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chainsaw_louie

Hi All,

I need a log arch to move logs short distances, about 1/4 mile and slowly, mostly on dirt roads and non public roads.  I got some scrap steel and wanted to ask if you think its strong enough to make a log arch that could carry a 12' x 30"  log that weighs between 2400-3500 lbs (poplar or white oak).  I have looked at designs on the web and they have an arch reinforced with additional gussets etc.  Is this steel up to the task or do I need to get new, and thicker steel.  Trying to use what I got .

Steel Arch:  3/16 thick steel , 4.5ft across and 32" high
or
4" steel pipe that measures out to be a bit less than 3/16 thick (.165") .

arch:


end view of arch, it is  2.5" pipe:
 

Got 40' of this steel pipe, could cut and weld an arch out of this and add reinforcing :


Also on the hubs, when designing a trailer for 3500lbs , does each hub have to be rated at the max weight or is it the max weight of loaded trailer divided by the number of wheels?
So,  I was thinking something like this hub, rated at 1750 lbs would work for a 3500 lb capacity trailer.
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200326376_200326376

Oh, do you need brakes on these things ? Maybe I should just weld on hubs from a car

Thanks!

-Tim




Dakota

I don't know if that pipe you have planned for the arch would be strong enough.  The hubs are a good idea.  I used them on my arch.


 



 
Dave Rinker

Cypressstump

Dakota, thats a kickbutt arch you have there bud!  Did you fabricate that or store bought?

Exactly what I am looking to build. Got any closer up pictures of that lil' jewel?
Thanks,
Stump

Timberking 1220 25hp w/extensions -hard mounted
Case 586E 6k forklift
2001 F350 4X4,Arctic Cat 500 4 wheeler wagon hauler
Makita 6401 34",4800 Echo 20"er, and a professional 18" Poulan PRO , gotta be a 'pro' cuz it says so rite there on tha' saw..

chainsaw_louie


Piston

Quote from: chainsaw_louie on June 02, 2012, 10:36:24 AM
did some looking around o FF and this link is what I  needed

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,45388.20.html

lots of pics etc

I was just going to post that link but you beat me to it  ;D  Let me know if you have any questions about it. 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Ironwood

I can offer this, DONT use I-beam it twists too much, use pipe or box tube. Personally the stuff in your pic looks to small for your useage/weight of the logs. Get used hubs, wheels and tires from a scrap yard, likely you would have 50-75 in everything hub/rim/tires, that would free up cash for better steel for actual construction.

I have built several of various sizes, look in my gallery. Shop your local scrap yards.


Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

chainsaw_louie

Thanks re the comments on the steel.  The mini-van axle seems like a perfect solution, I wonder what it can hold in terms of weight.

Today I cut out the pipe and marked it for joining.  I was hoping that with gussets and supporting plates that the pipe  could be made to work.  Maybe if I created two arches and joined them, it would be strong enough, I got 40' of that pipe:










Ironwood

That looks pretty good. Is it the same as the first pic? Looks thicker. Look at how many arches are double arched and ALOT of gussets. You should be fine. the "bridge" running forward to the hitch is "truss like" with lots of bar joist like welds. Arches experience ALOT of dynamic stressing actions (twisting, etc..)

Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

Dakota

chainsaw_louie - sorry I'm so long in responding.  Been out of town.  Yes, I fabricated the arch.  Unfortunatly I did not take any pictures of the building process.  Looks like you are going to go with the tubing you have on hand.  I'd do a lot of bracing, as there is a lot of stress on the arch when it is loaded up.



 



 

Dakota
Dave Rinker

chainsaw_louie

Okay,  I went to the junk yard Saturday and picked up a couple of hubs from a Ford minivan .  I hope these will work, I got ones that have a tube between the two rear wheels and a little platform with U bolts that connects to the pipe 'axle'.

I figure that I will move the U-bolted platform close to the hubs as possible, after removing the tabs for the shock mounts.  I am not sure whether its better to mount them frame with the hub 'down' (this is the way it is in the vehicle) or 'up'. Its unclear to me whether there is any difference from a load carrying point of view. The main body of the hubs appear to be cast iron and so I cant weld onto them....I am limited to connecting to the U-bolted platform or welding onto the pipe.

Pics:


in the 'down' position, as in the vehicle:


I'll remove those tabs and shove that U-bolt platform up close to the hub. I can also turn the U-bolted platform 180 degrees , if that makes sense:


Oh, forgot to mention, paid $75 for the hubs,  $50 for two wheels and tires and they paid me $30 for a old catalytic convertor ...so it cost me $100 for wheels and hubs.

-Tim

thecfarm

I myself would go up for stump,rock and ground clearance. I have a couple trailers made out of old pickup trucks front end,straight axle. I just mounted them in the up position for the ground clearnace. I suppose those are drum brakes? I have one trailer made out of axle kind unknown and I took all the insides out of it. If you have trouble with keeping the tires up,put a tube in it.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Ironwood

Think the "arms" are definitely cast, move the u bolt mounts as stated and then I would also weld to the tube. "just in case", and or you can make some sort of rod/tube strut to go into the middle of the casting arm (drill it straight thru and bolt to strut rod/tube) There will be ALOT of stress directed at the old spring pad. The strut should come off the upper truss heading forward to the hitch, this will create ALOT of strength. See my pic below with struts. 

  

 
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

chainsaw_louie

Thanks for the feedback.  I think I understand what you mean and was also thinking that by turning the hub 180 degrees and welding only to the axle pipe (or cross support) and not the actual hub casting, that under stress of a load, the hub may rotate on the pipe.  So, I think you are telling me that I should connect the hub casting to the axle pipe and vertical arch pipe with welds.  I agree with this and have made a crude drawing below:



Maybe I can find a way to connect to existing bolts which are in the casting already.

-Tim

Ironwood

Good drawing/mock up. Since you cannot effectively weld cast (generally) I would extend the lower plate (or another attached to it) on each side to "capture" the axle casting that extends down to the hub. It would essentially create a pocket that will not let that casting move forward or backward. This was the same idea I had with the drilling and bolting, but your idea combined with this latest one, would be stronger and better. Good evolution, now I wish I had not scrapped a minin van axle I had here  :D

Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

Sprucegum

Ironwood's second picture showing truss-type construction would make your light wall pipe strong enough. And your arch will be light enough to move by hand.

chainsaw_louie

I misunderstood what you meant by the struts Ironwood,  but after re-reading your post and looking at your pictures (top one) I get what you are referring to by a strut that is connected between the hub and the towing arm.   A support strut like this would definitely hold that hub in place and keep it from rotating . I'm not sure what the working load is of that casting to axle-pipe joint is, but it must be 2000 lbs at least. If  the strut keeps it from turning and it should , this should work.

Also, I think that I am going to abandon my earlier idea of welding onto that spring plate and weld my vertical support directly to the axle pipe. It would be easier to butt weld to the spring pland and  not to have to cut circles out of the end of the pipe to joint up with the axle pipe but its probably much stronger to weld it all together and not use the U-bolts to tie it together.

-Tim

barbender

If it is cast steel, you should be able to weld it fine, shouldn't you? 7018 rod, if it is something that requires strength it would be cast steel not cast iron, big difference.
Too many irons in the fire

reride82

use a grinder wheel on the cast part, if it is cast steel it will throw lots of sparks, if it is cast iron it will not produce sparks. You can weld cast steel with any generic wirefeed or stick welder just like welding mild steel. Its worth a try, I know alot of parts are made with cast steel these days and I would bet that is one of them.
Levi
'Do it once, do it right'

'First we shape our buildings, then our buildings shape us'
Living life on the Continental Divide in Montana

Ironwood

There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

Sixacresand

 

 

All the pipe was from an old trampoline I found dumped in the woods.  The axles and hubs came off a junk trailer and the tires are the spares from my F150.  The square stock came from the dump also.  welding rods were about all I bought for this deal.  And the pain pills for my acking back. 
"Sometimes you can make more hay with less equipment if you just use your head."  Tom, Forestry Forum.  Tenth year with a LT40 Woodmizer,

barbender

Once a crew I was hauling for had the grapple hanger on their 540 Deere break in half. Well, one of them knew a "millwright", they brought the cast hanger to him to get it welded back together. He figured it was cast iron, not steel, so he.welded it with nickel rod ??? They were reassembling it when I got to the job, there were deep fractures around all the weld beads. I told them I wouldn't even put it on. Well, it made one skid and broke in half again. So I gave them my opinion, it was steel and weld it up deep and hot with some 7018. They did and it pulled wood the rest of that winter, all the next one and then they got rid of it. It might still be holding together :)
The whole point of my story is 1. I felt pretty smug that day for being right  ;D Anything requiring strength that is going to be subjectet to shock loads and flexing will be steel, cast iron is way too brittle.

22;D
Too many irons in the fire

barbender

Sorry for the misspells, odd punctuation and random characters, I'm posting from a smart phone and my big paws don't do so well on the little keyboard, I try to fix it and I make it worse ::)
Too many irons in the fire

chainsaw_louie


Going slow here but made some major progress:
    - re learned how to use a oxy/actln cutting torch , did a bunch of practice and still am not very good but got the
       hang of it ...enough to make circle and oval cut outs in the pipe

    - found a great site that will produce the cutting pattern for any size pipe joint  1"-10" and any angle.  I was messing
       around with trying to cut paper templates then I found this site and it produces a .pdf file that you print and cut
       out with scissors, roll into a tube , tape the ends  and presto there is a perfect template for cutting the pipe !! Its
       pretty cool and beats guessing

   If you are building anything with pipe or tubing this handy mitering calculator is very handy:
              http://metalgeek.com/static/cope_custom.pcgi


Here are some pics of the upright pipe with a hole in it for the hub:





not sure how much clearance to give it , this looks a bit close:


and finally, I was wondering if the low down position is better for any reason or not:





-Tim


thecfarm

I would rather see it high,better for rocks and stumps to go over. I would give it some more clearance between the tire and tubing. remember there will be some weight on that thing and the tire will squat down some.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

shinnlinger

Yes, mount it up for sure.  Ground clearance is key in the woods.

My computer is old and can't download your site.  I have found that if you cut tubing at 33 degrees on two sides it will fit around another piece of tube the same size and weld up nice for making T's or 90's.  Try it on scrap, you will like it 
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

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