Noxious plants

[cigani]

Hello to this most interesting forum. I have been suffering with an infestation of noxious plants for the last fifteen or so years. The biggest problems are multiflora rose and spicebush with some grapevines for good measure. I have tried spraying the rose with crossbow and have had good results initially but then noticed it growing back. I have been cutting off the spicebush in winter using a clearing saw but it has recovered too-should I try some kind of basal spray? Can anybody help me with these problems? We're not getting much regeneration in oak at all. Our woodlots are in Western Pennsylvania and are mainly mixed hardwood. Thanks.

Cigani2

[Frickman]

Cigani,
Glad to see someone else from Western Pa. here on the forum. There's two ways to solve your problem, get a dozer or get some goats. We've tried both methods, and the goats work better. We have a nanny goat here that loves poison ivy, multiflora rose, and most other kinds of brush. If we leave her eat off the plant enough times eventually it dies from starvation. We've tried dozers but if you leave roots they come back. I've never tried herbicides as our county agent told me once about their general inneffectiveness on multiflora rose.

[Ron Wenrich]

I've used goats as well, but in an overgrown field situation.  They killed the multflora rose, autumn olive, red cedar, soft maple, ash, and honeysuckle.  They never did kill off the poison ivy.  If you're having regeneration problems, goats aren't the answer.

Did you check with the Penn State extension office in your county?  Another resource would be the DCNR office.  

[johnjbc]

Welcome Cigani

Went to wood lot owners meeting  a couple years ago and they had speakers addressing the regeneration issue The first was Gary Alt from the Ps Game Commission who made a case for deer being the main cause of poor regeneration.
He was followed  by a speaker that was doing regeneration studies in the Laurel Highlands that showed a direct correlation between the PH of the soil and the amount and type of regeneration. More acid you get less oak and more maple and at higher amount even the maple has problems.
Could it be that the multiflora rose and spicebush  are doing good because they don't have any competition ?

[Ron Wenrich]

That's a two edged sword.  Multiflora rose is there because it has no competition and there is no competition because it can't come up through the rose.  But, you raise a good point.

My neighbor cut his timber about 12 years ago.  He never consulted me, I would have done the work for free.  There was no provisions for regeneration.  They cut all the big trees and left a few hickory behind.  Also left a few cull trees.  It could loosely be classified as a seed tree cut, but was actually a high grade gutting.

His stand came back in multiflora rose (probably from my place) and goldenrod (another neighbor is the seed source).  The residual trees mainly either died or were blown over.  He asked me when I thought he would get another forest growing.  I told him not in his lifetime.  

If there isn't a forest growing before you cut, it is darn hard to get it growing after the seed source is gone, especially with heavy seeded species.  

I agree with the acid problem.  A lot of that is coming from acid rain and sites that are heavy to mountain laurel generally don't have too good of oak.  Mountain laurel grows on the more acid sites.

[cigani]

Thanks for the quick replies, Frickman, Ron and John. Seems to me I heard that Penn State had some kind of a program where they used goats to eat noxious plants. Jim Findley, who is a Penn State Professor of Forestry, told me that they used a bunch of goats and that they were quite effective. They transported the goats to the site and then used a solar powered electric fence to keep them together. Very interesting and I do like goats' milk-might be worth a shot and maybe cheaper than paying my son to spray all summer.

Interesting also to consider the real cause of no regen. I have always believed that deer overpopulation was the biggest factor followed just slightly by the boom in undesirable plants. I've heard that acidity is a factor too. We are making headway on the deer issue now by encouraging (requiring) more doe harvests and I am trying on the plant side too. Can't do much about acidity tho. Just might put up a small deer fence enclosure to see what kind of regen occurs if the deer are kept out. I think we do have pretty good stands and have  followed good forestry practices in our timber sales-generally our stands have come back heavy to poplar and cherry which I'm not complaining about.

Incidently, I know where the rose came from on our place. My Dad and I planted it about forty years ago!! It was touted as a great natural fence for cattle and great for wildlife. Geez-now it's everywhere...Oh well Thanks again

[Ron Wenrich]

Jim and I were classmates at Penn State.  

I needed about a dozen goats to clear off my field.  And that was just about 5 acres.  It took them several years.

The Game Commission did us no favors promoting their living fences.  We're also getting a lot of noxious plants that are used by home owners.  This stuff gets into the wild and destroys habitat by crowding out the natives.  

Acidity could be handled with lime, on a small basis.  I imagine it would get to be too expensive on a large scale.  Acid rain is another problem lending to the soil acidity.

Have you tried planting any seedlings?  I've heard of some success with seedlings and using tubes.  It keeps the deer away until they get tall enough.

[L. Wakefield]

   Spicebush- Lindera benzoin? Now I wish I had that problem. My farm in WV used to have 1 or 2- but I couldn't find them last time. So I saw some in Md as I was traveling- stopped and dug a few and brought them up to Maine with me. If I got down around your way this coming year sometime would you care if I stopped by and dug some? In WV it was in the fencerow and was not at all invasive. Here in Maine I am nursing it along. I fear this winter with cold and not much snow will be hard on a lot of my perennials.  lw

[SwampDonkey]

Well if you choose the herbicide method, bushhog the site first. Then when it begins to sucker again apply the herbicide on the succulent shoots. You can get some products that go in to kill the roots. And some herbicide will kill seed also. If your soil is heavily seeded with these species than they will be back. You can get a head start on them by planting some  3 year old tree seedlings.  I like sugar maple because they grow fast, like 2 to 3 feet a year after the first season. Red oak is fast growing too, since they can have lammas growth. Black walnut is also fast growing. If your going to transplant wildlings, you should do it as soon as the frost is out of the ground and the trees are still dormant. Don't try to transplant older seedlings that are over 4 feet tall, these are usually alot older than you think, unless they are open grown. I've noticed in 25 years of transplanting wildlings that your way far ahead planting 1 to 3 foot tall ones. They'll grow way faster than those wildlings growing under suppressed conditions for over 20 years. Trust me on this point.  

Lammas Shoots are abnormal late season shoots that develop from the terminal bud, not a recurring phenomenon as in flushing shoots. A second shoot subtended by its own leaves and axillary buds is produced. I've also seen it occassionally in sugar maple and white pine. So basically you get two growth spirts per season. In 2002 and 2003 we had alot of white pine seedlings do this, which made them suspectible to glyphosate herbicide since they were not yet hardened off in mid-august. It was an early dry summer, then alot of rain mid summer.

Here's a link on annual growth cycle of seedlings; mentions a probable cause of lammas growth.

http://www.cof.orst.edu/cof/teach/for442/cnotes/sec2/sec_2a.htm

Funny how I diverge from the topic sometimes

cheers

[cigani]

Thanks again for the much appreciated info.

Ron- I saw Jim Findley on Saturday at a woodland owners conference. What an effective speaker. I am now really convinced that the Oak regeneration is threatened. There was also a session on noxious plants which was very informative and pretty much stressed using herbicides and varying techniques. I have planted about a thousnd black walnut seedlings in tubes two years ago and so far so good. We planted them in rows with red pines between each seedling as a nurse crop. The Red Pines have all died off but the Walnuts are looking ok. We got ahuge amont of help in fthis project from deer hunters who volunteered.

L. Wakefield-You are welcome here any time and if you want to dig out Spicebush I'll take you out for lunch. My name is John Weyandt and I live in Indiana, Pa. Please e mail me at weyandt@yourinter.net. Would very much enjoy meeting you.

Swamp Donkey-(Isn't that a moose?. Thanks for the info and insight about wildings. Something I had never considered and fascinating to explore. Some environmental clubs in local high schools do projects like this and I will ceratinly check it out. About brush hogging-I don't think the terrain is even enough for my much used brush hog, too many rocks and too much debris. What I am going to try is using my trusty clearing saw to cut the material and then spray the shoots with garlon 4. Lots of work but pretty grtatifying Two years ago I did about 20 acres of brush and Spicebush and I got lots of regeneration -in brush and spice. Thanks again

[Ianab]

Now bear in mind that these comments are for a completely different forest type.. but maybe some ideas that could help.

Some study has been done here in NZ about regenerating forest from various conditions, open pasture, gorse, fern, native manuka scrub etc.
What has been found is the importance of nurse species in establishing forest trees. The established forest trees here will just NOT grow naturally in an exposed location, they will only grow up thru sheltered light wells in an existing forest. So a natural forest regeneration is basically a 3 stage process. Manuka is a small short lived tree that will grow almost anywhere and needs full sunlight so it will take over neglected (or even not neglected) pasture and establish a short forest environment in about 20 years. In the shade under the manuka other species will grow from bird carried seeds, these are larger 2nd generation forest trees. These would be mahoe, rewarewa, totara and various other species. Once these are established the final species will eventually begin to grow up thru the canopy with the Rimu, Kauri and Tawa etc forming the 'old growth' forest. This is like 50 years down the track.
Now... for the clever bit...
If you want to encourage the forest establishment you can use the first growth scrub or weeds as a nurse crop for final trees. Basically take your scrubcutter or chainsaw and cut some tracks and clearings in the scrub. Spray the regrowth as suggested to keep your small clearings open and plant good seedlings of your desired trees. You may need to trim to keep the clearings open untill your trees grow out of the scrub canopy but once this happens your 'forest' trees will eventually smother the scrub / weeds.
Now I dont know how much use these ideas are in your forest situation, but maybe burnt earth policy and then hoping for the right regrowth is not the best idea?

Good luck whatever you choose to do..

Ian