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White Ash flooring - Plain or Quartersawn?

Started by WoodenHead, May 30, 2012, 06:46:34 AM

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WoodenHead

I was wondering if I could get some advice as to how best to saw some white ash for a tongue and groove floor for a small church.  As part of the building renovations we (I'm part of the congregation) need to remove the existing floor so that we can better insulate and heat the place in the winter.  I've been asked to supply the flooring (6" wide planks).  The white ash comes to me quite reasonable and it is high on the hardness scale.  Would it be better for me to plain saw (saves time milling and offers a nice look) or quartersaw for strength and shrinkage?  Is white ash dry enough as a wood so that shrinkage and cupping are not as much of issue as it would be for other species?

sealark37

I had my ash flooring plain sawn.  After it was edged to a 4" face and T&G, there was about a 70/30 mix of flat/quarter boards.  It made a beautiful floor and has been very durable.  I ran short of ash in the last room, so I mixed 4",2", and 1" ash with red and white oak.  It made a strikingly beautiful floor that brings comments from all that see it.  Don't neglect the back relieving.  Regards, Clark

thecfarm

I plan on using White Ash for the floor for the Veggie Shack. I plan on using 4 footors,by 4 inches. No money for T&G. Should I cut a relief on the back side of each board? No table saw but I could do it with a skil saw. This building may have some heat in the late fall early spring.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

WoodenHead

Thanks Clark.

What do you usually do for back-relief?  Sounds like thecfarm puts a shallow slice in it.

tyb525

Will there be a subfloor under this? Without a subfloor, there will be a much greater chance of cupping/warping and other undesired movement.
LT10G10, Stihl 038 Magnum, many woodworking tools. Currently a farm service applicator, trying to find time to saw!

WoodenHead

There will not be a sub-floor underneath.  The underlying beams are approximately 30" on-center.  I plan to saw 5/4 or 6/4 for added strength.  Do you think this might be a problem?

tyb525

Others will chime in here, but I have seen flooring cup due to moisture under the building, and dry air above the floor from heating. This happens especially if there is no subfloor or at least a moisture barrier under the flooring. 30" oc, with 5/4 or 6/4, would probably be fine strength wise, again I'm sure others will know about this.

What I do know is if there is no protection from moisture under the building, the flooring will cup, the underside of the board will expand due to higher moisture content.

Personally, what I would do, is put down 3/4 plywood or OSB subfloor, then 30lb roofing felt. This would allow standard 3/4" flooring. At the very least, I would put down roofing felt or some type of moisture barrier under the flooring if you don't put down a subfloor.
LT10G10, Stihl 038 Magnum, many woodworking tools. Currently a farm service applicator, trying to find time to saw!

WoodenHead

Thanks tyb525.  Excellent advice. 

To give you some history, the church building was originally constructed in 1878.  It presently has 6" tongue and groove 5/4 pine flooring which we believe is original.  The crawl space underneath is between 12" and 16" with a dirt floor.  As with all the old churches, the stone foundation has an air vent to keep ground moisture under control.

As part of the renovations we hope to clear out some dirt to rock (very shallow soil here), spray foam around the stone foundation and put concrete down to control the moisture underneath.  Then insulated heating ducts will be run.  We might have a vent in the crawl space to warm underneath the floor as well.  Then we would like to put down new wood flooring to keep some of the original look of the church.

The heat will be cycling in the building.  There will be lots of air movement.  I'm leaning towards quarter-sawing to minimize shrinkage between planks as well as cupping.  We can live with a little shrinkage in floor thickness.

 

thecfarm

Not trying to derail your thread here newbee,I have a 12'X26' building just on cement blocks about one every 4 feet. I all ready put down a 1" hemlock floor and I want to dry some Ash and lay that down next year over the hemlock. I'm planing on buying some ¼" styrofoam to put between the 2 layers to help keep the cold out. This is only a Veggie Shack that will only have a little heat late spring early fall. Should I cut a relief in each board to be on the safe side? Just like I said,no table saw.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

woodman58

As a hardwood floor installer the National Wood Flooring Association reccomends glueing and nailing any flooring over 5" in width. To do this you will need a subfloor. If you choose not to put the subfloor down. I wood cut the width of the boards down to 4" to minimize cupping and 1" thick with the tounge being down 1/2" from the top. You will have to take the plastic plate off the bottom of the floor nailer to let it reach the top of the tounge. You will need to make a minimum of 2 releif cuts on the back side. Releif cuts shoul dbe at least 1/2" widths centered on the back. I have attached a link for a molding cutter that fits on a table saw. For the releif cut see corob molding knives #34.
http://corobcutters.com/mhk75moldinghead.aspx

Here is a picture of what the back should look like. Look at the pic about 1/2 way down the page.

http://www.gandswoodfloors.com/installation.html





i LOVE THE SMELL OF SAW DUST IN THE MORNING.
Timberking 2200

tyb525

Quote from: thecfarm on May 30, 2012, 09:25:41 PM
Not trying to derail your thread here newbee,I have a 12'X26' building just on cement blocks about one every 4 feet. I all ready put down a 1" hemlock floor and I want to dry some Ash and lay that down next year over the hemlock. I'm planing on buying some ¼" styrofoam to put between the 2 layers to help keep the cold out. This is only a Veggie Shack that will only have a little heat late spring early fall. Should I cut a relief in each board to be on the safe side? Just like I said,no table saw.

As long as you don't mind a somewhat rustic looking floor, I would screw or face nail the boards to the hemlock subfloor. A relief cut or 2 wouldn't hurt, just set your skil saw to about 1/4" depth and run it down the bottom side of the boards. Make sure the styrofoam you use is pretty sturdy, otherwise I'd be afraid of it collapsing/breaking down over time, resulting in an uneven floor.
LT10G10, Stihl 038 Magnum, many woodworking tools. Currently a farm service applicator, trying to find time to saw!

thecfarm

tyb525.thank you. I was kinda thinking using finish nails,gav ones,counter sink each one.but don't know if that would do a good job. The rustic look would not bother me none. I could use common nails,gav too. The rustic look is what we are looking for.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Cedarman

As far as looks go, I like 1/4 sawn better with a little dark heart.  Our main room floor is 80% 1/4 sawn and the rest is flat sawn.   It has been down 20 years and still looks good.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

red oaks lumber

put a vapor barrier on the under side of the floor joists, then add insulation in between the joists, put subfloor down. with out subfloor every end cut will need to fall on top of a joist, which will end up wasting material, not to say anything about you wont have much strenght. since this is a "public' building are there some codes that need to be followed?
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

thecfarm

Just a building permit. It's on our land,not in town where probably everything would be differant.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

leroy in kansas

Cfarm, it sounds like it's time for you to invest in a few toys, er a tools. Like a table saw. A word of caution, DO NOT attempt to saw small pieces holding them with your hands. I just packaged a pt and transported him to the great St Elsewhere for surgery on an amputated small finger and saw lacerations accrost all his digits on one hand. (my real job is working in emergency room.) He had done just what I'm cautioning you about. It was his LAST CUT. The last board he needed to finish his floor. Turned out to be his "last cut" .
Please don't think I'm picking on you Cfarm, I'm mearly taking this opertunity to tell all of ya to Be Careful Out There.
Leroy

laffs

I would do a minimum of a subfloor vapor barrier and then the hardwood.

If you want to use wide plank you could consider screwing the planks down, consists counter sinking the screws in the face and pluging the holes. You can buy a plug cutter for around $5,
timber harvester,tinberjack230,34hp kubota,job ace excavator carpenter tools up the yingyang,

shelbycharger400

posted just for a quick way to find those cutters!!!
http://corobcutters.com/mhk75moldinghead.aspx


just picked up a 1950's  craftsman table saw for $18 with a motor, 3 blades and a dato blade.     looks like i need a few accessories.

thecfarm

leroy,thanks for the advice. Maybe a table saw is in the project. The way things are going I won't be sawing the ash until late July. Than I want it to be dry. Won't really have enough time before it gets cold here.May be putting the floor down in the Fall of 2013.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

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