property lines

[snowstorm]

i have a question maybe you can help me with. have a lot i am going to cut. 3 of the line are pretty well marked. at the end of one line there are two steel pins. what dose this mean? now as far as acreage the town says 15 the owner says 22. two of the lines are 100 rods the others are 79 rods and 81 rods. shouldnt it be 100x80=8000 divided by 160 =50ac??? what would you do in this case???

[Chuck White]

According to Google, a rod = 16½ feet.

Hope this helps you.

[bill m]

You are assuming this lot is a rectangle. If it is a parallelogram the acreage can be a lot less. Why does the acreage matter anyway? You do need to have all of the property lines marked first before you start this job. Timber trespass can be very expensive.

[Ron Scott]

I wouldn't touch it until the landowner provided me with a registered certificate of survey. Two steel pins means that there may not be agreement on the property corner. Legal ownership needs to be determined and located.

[snowstorm]

I wouldn't touch it until the landowner provided me with a registered certificate of survey. Two steel pins means that there may not be agreement on the property corner. Legal ownership needs to be determined and located.

the 2 pins are next to each other. not 6" apart wasnt sure what that ment. 3 of the lines are blazed an painted. i have a copy of the deed the discreption is from 1915. am i correct in thinking this lot is close to 50ac??

[John Mc]

am i correct in thinking this lot is close to 50ac??

You have not provided enough information to make that determination. Are the corners you do have blazed 90˚ angles (or at least approximately so)?  If so, then calculating the area is relatively simple, and it would be about 50 acres.

However, there are an awful lot of other shapes you can make with the 3 sides you have given, all of which would have different areas ... some greatly different.

[giant splinter]

The survey markers should have a brass tag with a registration number stamped into it,may read (RCE 463789) or (LS 67413)for example and there are variations of the registration numbers and initials.If these are present you can locate the surveyor or civil engineer of record by going to the county offices,you also may be able to obtain a copy of parcel or tract map from them for a modest fee.The boundary survey and topography if they exist will reveal the correct acreage.The county records at least should have a legal description of the property size.
I hope some of this helps,and two pins in close proximity is an indication that the surveyor did not close his boundary limits or it may be what is called an "equation" this is where two different authorities don't meet at a common point and results in two points being set.I hope that some of this will help you.

[giant splinter]

I am wondering about the use of rods on your survey,a rod is five and a half yards. I am not sure if anyone is still using this method anymore as by todays standard the decimal foot is being used for distance and the bearing angles are decimal degrees ..... if you can get the property line distances and bearing angles I bet we can figure out your acreage fairly easily and even possibly get you close enough to find the missing boundary corner with a metal detector. What gradient is the lot and do the trees for the most part block the boundaries from "eyeballing" the corners of the property?

[snowstorm]

this is what the deed says....beginning at a stake and stones at the side of a hemlock tree marked for a corner 81 rods from the end or a stone wall that marks the northeasterly line of j e xxx said wall begianing on the northwesterly side of the road leading from foggs corner. thence n28.5w by said jexxxline 100 rods to stake at land formerly owned by fogg. thence northeasterly by said fogg line to land formerly owned by jwxxx. thence s28.5e 79 rods thence southerly in a stright line to bound the first mentioned. all this is from 1913. so the hemlock tree along with mr je  jw  and fogg are long gone along with the guy that sold it to the current owner 20 years ago. thank you for any help on this

[WDH]

Sometimes a simple letter of agreement with the neighbor that the marked line is acceptable to them is all it takes.  That way, everyone has signed off and agreed to the cutting area.  Surveys down here are very expensive, but if there is a dispute, a survey is critical.

[Holmes]

I did the math in square feet and came up with 50 acres also

[John Mc]

Map My Land is relatively inexpensive software that will draw a map from the deed description (and using a variety of measurement units, including rods), and calculate the area from that. It also has a Google Earth interface that lets you see what you have draw on Google Earth.  IMO, it's quite a deal at $79.

I've use an early version of the software and was impressed. It's been much improved since then.

John Mc

[chevytaHOE5674]

For a quick and dirty way to find acreage I use either DaftLogic or findlotsize.

I use them when somebody wants a quick approx acreage of a tract of land or a stand of timber. If you can locate boundary lines via the aerial photo then they are relatively accurate.

[John Mc]

One of the things Map My Land does is you don't need a map to start with, or to be able to identify boundary lines from a satellite or orthophoto. It's been a few years since I used it, but as I recall, you can enter in the description from the deed "i.e. north 28.5 by west 100 rods".  Once you've finished, it calculates the area.

If you know the coordinates of one of the points, it will locate that newly drawn boundary on a geo-referenced map.

John Mc

[WDH]

Something smells wrong.  For the town to say 15 acres, the owner to say 22 acres, and for the calculation to net 50 acres, that is way too big of a difference unless something is awry, somewhere. 

[snowstorm]

Something smells wrong.  For the town to say 15 acres, the owner to say 22 acres, and for the calculation to net 50 acres, that is way too big of a difference unless something is awry, somewhere.

i agree. the deed dose not say how ac. it is. i sorta knew the sota shady  person that sold it to the current owner. as far as the town saying it 15ac they take it off the tax map

[Ron Scott]

Who's paying the taxes on the rest of it? There may be other ownerships of the 22 and 50 acre parcel.

[chevytaHOE5674]

Who's paying the taxes on the rest of it? There may be other ownerships of the 22 and 50 acre parcel.

Yeah something isn't right with the situation. IME the Gov't rarely misses taxable acreage, they might tax 2,3, or 4 people for the same land but they don't usually charge somebody Zero for their land.

[Ron Wenrich]

Since 1913, there could have been many lots split off of this deed.  You need the updated deeds.  When I ran deeds, I would often look at neighboring deeds in the courthouse.  That would give me an indication of how well the deeds joined.  Some of those old deeds weren't very good, since it was just woodland.  You could go into the books and look up the old names, but some of those deeds may have never been recorded.  Spending time in the courthouse will minimize your time looking for corners and lines.

2 pins means that 2 of the adjoining properties were probably surveyed by different surveyors, and each guy put in a pin.  It always escapes me why surveyors will take an old deed written using old technology, then put a laser on it and tell you "that's what the deed calls for".  The property hasn't changed, just the description. 

I had one property where the original survey was done in 1794.  That's when they used a chain for measuring.  Length depended on how cold it was.  The property was steep, and the side of a mountain.  The property owner had a surveyor survey the land prior to a timber sale.  The surveyor gave us a tour of his work.  We walked up to an old stone pile where the surveyor said he didn't know what that stone pile was, but he established a corner 6' away.  I know what that stone pile was.  It was the old warrant corner, established in 1794.  At least he didn't destroy it.  He did that on all the old stone piles. 

[NWP]

Our county assessor website has a GIS mapping program that will show an aerial photo and overlay the property lines for the whole county.  It's very helpful.  You might see if this is an option.

[SwampDonkey]

Gotta love those old deeds that reference living things (trees) that fell down and rotted decades ago. ;) About the worst are hemlock and cedar because as folks clear land up to the neighboring line or cut the timber off those tree species go over in the wind. ;) My grandfather and uncle kept at old deed that described riperian rights on the river. They were nullified when the NB Power Corp expropriated for the hydro dams in the 60's. My grandfather never had a property line surveyed ever since the place was bought in the 20's.

The responsibility lies with the land owner to prove he owns what he does or signed agreement with his neighbors. It's not the logger's job to hire a surveyor to fix the lines just because he wants the logging job. I see this all the time around here, loggers hiring surveyors or running a "management line" with ribbons by compass bearing. Then sometimes fighting about cut wood the neighbor claims as their own. I would make contact with all the neighbors and tell them what your intentions are and ask if the line(s) are in agreement before a tree was cut. Another angle is that if a "management line" is agreed to and used, and you cut up to it, this does not mean it's the property line. Sometimes it's easier that way even if you loose a few feet.

[Ron Wenrich]

Two of the best corners I've heard about on deeds are the man in the field, and the stick in the ice.  Its always best to notify adjoiners.  I've ended up with more business that way. 

[WDH]

Yes, a simple letter agreeing to the cut boundary will cure a lot of demons and line monster problems.

[LeeB]

I just had my place surveyed, not to create problems but to help solve them. My neighbor and I have not seen eye to eye much of late and have rfecently started talking again. The survey put a short stretch of his fence on my side of the line. To get to my house, I have to use an easement across hiss place going along this fence for a way and the it veres of deeper into his land. We're talking about maybe 200 ft of fence that's about 6 ft on my side and then my line going over to 50 ft from the easement for abot 1200 ft. To keep this fence line he gave up all the property between the road and the boundry. Both of us are happy.

[g_man]

I would definately check with the abutting land owners. Two years ago I heard a skidder running up on my neighbors land. I went over to take a look and saw they had flagged the property line between us. About 2000'. I followed the flagging to see how they did. They did OK by me but when they got to the corner of of the neighbors land they kept going straight down my line with a second neighbor. They went right by the obscure pin to a stone wall before making the corner. So they flagged about 10 A of the second neighbors land. I told the logger. He said he would stay out of that area for a while and said talk to the forester. The forester/surveyer, who had a good map, and the land owner who didn't know his own property lines were both very embarassed. The forester later told me he just went by what the land owner said. He didn't pay much attention to the map.
I have found many if not most people who own forest land don't know where there property lines are.