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Do you Burn when using a Tape measure?

Started by Brad_bb, May 29, 2012, 09:24:25 AM

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jpmorris98

One of my timber framing acquaintances brought this to my attention.  There are several makes of blank and story pole tape measures that can be marked up with a pencil.

While I can't vouch for this brand, here is one example:

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2005829/25224/FASTCAP-Story-Pole-25-Tape-Measure.aspx

Just a thought for those of that may be interested.

Jim_Rogers

JP, thanks for joining us here....

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

beenthere

JP
Thanks for the link. Interesting tape measures and like them addressing the right-handed and left-handed tapes. Seems most I've seen on the market, and the one drawn by Brad, have the numbers upside down for a right-handed person (holding the tape in the left hand and writing/marking with the right hand).
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

jpmorris98

@Jim - Thank you.... glad I stumbled upon this resource.

@beenthere - Right handed myself, never thought of it from that perspective.  It would be more convenient to hold w/ the left and mark w/ the right, eliminating the juggling of tape and marking tool. 

John S

jimparamedic,
Thanks for your suggestion of using a story pole.  I have used them in my woodworking but never thought of it for timberframing (I am just an amateur).  I am surprised that I have never heard of any timberframer using one.  It seems to me that it would minimize the burning 10 inches or a foot issue since it would only be done once (except for checking dimensions of the erected structure during the raising and assembly) for the laying out on the story pole.
2018 LT40HDG38 Wide

Jim_Rogers

Story pole.

I wrote a thread here, with pictures about how to create and use a story pole for timber framing.

You just need to do a search and find it.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

John S

Jim,
I tried a search but it just brought me back to this thread.
John
2018 LT40HDG38 Wide

Jeff

Jim's story pole topic.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,17987.0.html


About the search, I don't know why, but if you use the simple search at the top of the page, many times it acts hinky and does not return what it should.  If you use the search link from the menu bar, it always works. I've concidered just doing away with that top search form because of that.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

beenthere

Now, I see only one "search" on a line with
Home Help Search Profile..............

Is that the menu bar, or the "simple search at the top of the page"?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

beenthere

Quote from: Jeff on June 02, 2012, 10:47:55 AM
............About the search, I don't know why, but if you use the simple search at the top of the page, many times it acts hinky and does not return what it should.  If you use the search link from the menu bar, it always works. I've concidered just doing away with that top search form because of that.

;D  That is what I thought...Huh? 

I see one, but you imply there are two.  Is this one the simple one or the one that always works? To me, it looks like the menu bar. And I don't recognize any other one.


 

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Brian_Weekley

If you're in a thread and you type something in the Search box, it will only search that thread.  If you go back and click on the Timber Frame directory first and you search, it will search the Timber frame threads.  If you click on the General Forestry directory and search it will search all threads there, etc...
e aho laula

Jim_Rogers

I don't know about which search line you guys are seeing but I only see one. The one to the right of the "Home - Help"  buttons line.

That's the one I use all the time.

If I'm looking for one of my posts, and I know what section it's in, such as "saw milling" or "timber framing", then I limit my search to these sections using the check box for section area.

If I know it's my thread then I enter my name in the "By user" line: Jim_Rogers.

And it usually finds my posts very fast.

Some of them are years and years old.

Jim Rogers

PS. I met a FF user at the Fox Maple timber framing school yesterday. He told me he hadn't posted in a while.
But he walked up to me while I was setting up my tools for sale tables and asked if I was the "Jim Rogers" from the Forestry Forum.

I said I was, you see I usually where my FF hat every where I go, but due to the fact that I was selling tools for "Vintage Tools, NE" I had my Vintage Tools hat on.

I do where many hats.

Well anyway, he wanted to just say "thanks for all you do" to me for all the stuff I have posted.

I told him there was lots of information here and that he just needed to find it.

That's all.
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

DouginUtah

There is a little square with an arrow in it just above "Saw Anywhere", to the right of Find-A-Database.

Click on it and you will see the other search box.
-Doug
When you hang around with good people, good things happen. -Darrell Waltrip

There is no need to say 'unleaded regular gas'. It's all unleaded. Just say 'regular gas'. It's not the 70s anymore. (At least that's what my wife tells me.)

---

Piston

Brad,
I'm curious how many tapes you've gotten a commitment to buy so far?  I did fill out the survey after Jim emailed it to me then I came here to see what this was about  ;D

I think the idea is a good one, but one thing is you stated that you want to make this tape idiot proof for yourself, to avoid the mistakes you make, I'd like to strongly suggest that you take your own ideas and what would work best for you, and go with that design. 

I would hate to see you go through all this trouble (and I'm sure a lot of money for a tape) only to have the general consensus agree on what they all like best, then you have that tape manufactured and end up making another stupid mistake all because someone else suggested something other than what you wanted originally. 

I do think your idea is a good one, and would probably help you avoid many mistakes, but I think you should go with your own design that is perfect for you, put in the order for 500 tapes and try to sell them to recoup some of your loss.  It must be worth a lot if your going through all this trouble. 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Jim_Rogers

Well I just checked the survey results.

So far as of this morning 76 have taken the survey.

Q1:
24 say burn an inch
26 say burn 10
21 say burn a foot

Q2:
6 say 16'
35 say 25'
33 say 30'

Q3:
23 say curved
51 say flat

Q4
36 say 1
20 say 3
2 say 5
6 have said 2.
estimated total 36+60+10+12=118

Q5
57 say 1/16"
17 say 1/32"

Q6:
Text answers
Either they like the idea and wish him well.
or they think it is bad idea and don't want it.
And lots of further questions and comments too many to post.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Satamax

I do sometimes burn.

But tape measures are all right nowadays. I'm pretty much on Frwinks track, with the peen the rivets shut. But not really, my thing is bend the end bit of the tape, so any discrepancy between in and out measurements is eliminated.

And i have few tapes measures for different jobs, some bent some not.

Another thing I do, hook the tape at the end bit of the wood, trace my starting line at ten cm, then add ten to all the measurements I lay out on the piece of timber. Then cut off those ten cm at the end. Or sometimes less, as I use this line for the shoulders for a tenon.

Another thing, I try to trace all the length lines for the joints on one face, if possible, as often the end of the piece of wood is wavy, and tracing from an adjacent face would trow things off. The start line is drawn on the four faces, and if some face is shorter I burn. Or else, if I have a bunch of joints in one spot, like two mortises for the braces a meter above, two slots for full lap joint etc. I redraw a start line all around at the closest short meter mark and use framing square, ruler and whatnot to do proper tracing.

This also means that if the tape measure is off, it's off the same on all four sides. But usually, if I'm off 2mm, that's normal. Even slabs are not that flat :D
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Brad_bb

Piston,
Well Jim posted the results, however, I still have a lot of timberframers I have to send the survey to.  I have to get all the email addresses entered in the computer.  The survey feedback has been great.  Please keep, the feedback and comments coming!

The survey so far reflects well with what I want.  If something were very opposed to what I wanted, it would be a point of discussion.  I don't want to taylor it to just me though.  Why am I doing this?  Besides my own wanting one, part of the point of this to make a whole lot of people more effecient, save time, save them from wasted energy and wood, and make for happier timberframers.  Although there may not be enough market top get a Return On Investment, I see a need here.  If I can work to get it done, it's no different than donating my time for the benefit of other framers- plus it's fun.  Sorta like all the people Jim Rogers has helped on this forum and elsewhere...

There's no way I could afford 500 tapes.  I don't know the cost yet, but I'm assuming a retail of $25 to be safe.  That's $10K for 500 tapes.  I will buy a few dozen myself. 

Assume 1/2 is cost to make, then profit for he retailer, then the rest of the profit goes towards tooling costs (assume $5k-$6k) so we will still be in the red just for the printing tooling after selling 500.  This does not include carrying costs and overhead by the manufacturer.

I'm really hoping that once we produce it, that we sell at least 500 to timberframers, and then hopefully we can find an outlet for other woodworkers who burn their tape and sell a few hundred more.  I'd like to come as close as possible to breaking even on the costs.

Satamax - it sounds like you burn 10cm. 

Story poles are great, but remember you have to lay them out too.  You cannot do all your timbers with them, only the like ones.  Invariable storypole users will use their tape too, and if they burn....

Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Thehardway

Brad and Jim,

I have a couple suggestions.  My cabinet maker is a big proponent of folding wood rules for all the reasons you guys have listed.  The one he prefers has the little slide out section in the first segment to measure to the 64th. 

I find a folding wooden rule is great for up to 10' but after that they tend to be cumbersome and impractical.

I like your retracting steel idea but would like to see a couple modifications.

1.  2 reinforced pin or tack holes with arrow shaped site lines on either side, 1 at the 0 mark and one at -1"
2.  The tail section of the tape should replicate the slider in the wooden rule showing ascending additions in 32nd or 64th the remainder of the tape marked in 16ths
3.  The tape would be flat and narrow, similar to a survey tape.
4.  I might like a manual winder instead of a spring load (spring load always seem to break or retract when you least want them to
5.  Actual tape material should be non-rusting.

I most often work by myself.  A tack hole in the end of the tape allows you to begin at a precise location, measure and pull tight without fear of the starting point moving.  Hook ends always seem to hang when you don't want them too and come lose when you want them to stay.

If you do a 12" burn with tack holes every 1" it becomes uneccesary to have any section other than the tail marked in less than 1" increments.  This can reduce confusion and clutter on the tape.  If the inch marks were laser etched rather than painted on it would virtually last forever.  They could  be on both sides for reverse read.

Undoubtedly I have just described a $50 + tape but you said the "Ultimate" timber framers tape and this is what I would want.
Norwood LM2000 24HP w/28' bed, Hudson Oscar 18" 32' bed, Woodmaster 718 planer,  Kubota L185D, Stihl 029, Husqvarna 550XP

John S

Jeff,
Thanks for the link and the info on doing searches.
John
2018 LT40HDG38 Wide

Brad_bb

Jim and I are still working on this, and emailing the online survey link to a lot of timber framers.  Jim has been a great help to me on this!  Big thanks to Jim!  I'll give a summary report when we conclude the online survey.  Brad
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

RobertJoseph

I "burn" an inch for woodworking projects, but mostly use the hook for timber sized projects. I agree it's important to use the same tape for all the layout. There can also be differences between tapes from different manufacturers. Learned that the hard way many years ago on a huge porch job a friend and I took on. He was using a cheapo tape and I had a lufkin. There was an eighth difference over six feet.

Forgive me for asking....not sure if it's been addressed, but if you're working with a manufacturer, wouldn't it be better to get them to make a more accurate/solid hook instead?
Robert

Brad_bb

There will still be variation in production, plus you cannot account for hook damage.  It is not uncommon that the hook is bent from a drop or other abuse.  Unlike the hook, the markings will not be altered.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Piston

I just took a timber framing course a couple weeks ago and this topic came up in my mind so I paid close attention to what the instructors said and asked a few questions about how much to burn.  They're answers were both the same regarding burning an inch, 10 inches, or a foot.
To sum it up, they never burn an inch because it's too close to easily be able to tell a mistake.  Since they see many different sets of drawings/plans, they burn differently.  Anytime the drawings/measurments are in inches, they burn 10 inches, but anytime the drawings are in feet and inches, they burn a foot, this makes it simple to remember.  Unfortunately, I doubt it would be possible to account for both methods on a single tape?  Possibly you could have one method on one side, and another on another, but then you introduce another possibility of a stupid mistake.  Hope this helps.   ;)
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

giant splinter

I think burning is a useful application,particularly if you are working with a tape or a rule that you don't feel you can trust the accuracy of the clip. Most of the burning I do is the one foot burn as on a long flat tape e.g. 100' or larger I can look at the person and see the tape hanging loose from his/her hand if we are on the same page he is burning a foot. Around the mill for the most part I trust my tape and when it gets down to the chop saw level of things I will burn 2 inches just to check the clip and be sure everything is right on.
The single thing that helps me the most is carrying my engineers 25 footer, inches and feet on one side and decimal feet on the other. I don't use a construction master calculator and have very little use for fractions I find the decimal foot rule or "Engineers scale" the most desirable for any layout situation.
These rules are found at survey and engineering supply stores as well as the Lufkin brand at Home Depot, with feet,inches and fractions on half of the face and the decimal foot or feet,tenths and hundredths on the other half "still a foot long just no 10's, 11's or 12's on that side" it works great for me although not ideal for everyone. You never know when the tape you have come to trust will let you down,checking them routinely is a good habit.
roll with it

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