Do you Burn when using a Tape measure?

[Brad_bb]

If if you don't do any of the options above, please explain in the comments.
   I'm talking with a company about producing a tape measure where 10 inches is already burned.  In other words, zero will be where the 10 inch mark usually is.  I'm also trying to determine whether it should be 25' or 30'.  I'm also looking at a tape that will lay flat on the timber, and not be curved like a normal tape.  It would not be as stiff as a typical curved one.  So you'd be giving up that feature in order for it to lay flat and make marking a little easier.  Not sure which way to go on that one yet.

[beenthere]

Maybe explain what it is you are doing this for, and also decide which of the two threads you want answers posted. ;)

[barbender]

What in the world, exactly, are you talking about? As far as a tape that lays flat, I have one, it is made by Fastback I think.

[Raider Bill]

I have no idea what this means.

[Dave Shepard]

I burn a foot during layout, then I move the hook to zero and check. I had a Milwaukee tape that had numbers on the back side that would put the marks right at the surface of the timber if you flipped it over.

[Faron]

I would suggest it might be handier if you went with 12" instead of 10". That way you would just add a foot if you were just hooking over the end of something.

[scsmith42]

Brad, something else to consider is to make an extension piece that will snap into an existing tape measure to provide the extra length for the cutoff.

[logman]

I burn an inch.  I use those cheap tapes from Lowes because they lay flat.  One of the guys I worked with  asked me why I buy those cheap ones instead of a 30.00 one, he than reeled his out about 15' or so like he was going to hook it on something and said I bet yours won't do that.  I told him I'm not fishing with it I like it to lay flat when laying out.   

[Jim_Rogers]

What in the world, exactly, are you talking about? As far as a tape that lays flat, I have one, it is made by Fastback I think.

When we layout timbers for timber framing we don't use the end of a standard tape measure as the end moves. The little clip on the end. It is made to move so that when you use it as an inside measure you get it right. And when you use it for an outside measure you get it right.

Due to this end clip moving we don't use the end of the tape we use another number such as 10" as a starting place or in other words as the zero point.

So if our plans say to layout the tie beam mortise at 116 1/2" from the bottom of the post, I'd attach my tape to the post using a quick grip clamp so that 10" mark is on the bottom line of the post. Then I'd add 10", in my head, to the 116 1/2" and mark the timber at 126 1/2".

After marking the timber at 126 1/2" I'd un clamp my tape, slide the clip end back to the bottom line on the post and verify that the tie beam mortise was at 116 1/2". This way I'm measuring twice and cutting once.

Brad is trying to get a tape manufacturing company to move the beginning of the tape or the zero point up the tape body to a place say 10" from the end of the clip. This way he can use this tape to layout his timber and not use the end of the tape.

Does this explain what he is asking?

Jim Rogers

[Ernie]

We are metric in New Zealand and I finally most of the time can visualize how long a meter is-- just over three feet--  All my tapes are metric so I "burn" 100 mm about 4 inches.  It's a nice round number that even I can remember.  I voted 1 inch even though it's a lie.

[tyb525]

I usually burn one inch, if I can reach far enough to hold the mark on the edge. Otherwise I use the hook. Always the hook if it's stick framing.

Then again I burnt a heck of a lot today in the sun, digging a footer. and that's a whole 12 inches and then some! :

[AMB30518]

I hook the tape end clip on the end of the timber when that end final cut is done, put a light pencil "tick mark" and then cut(burn) 1' to check before my final measurement mark.

When making an inside measurement on the face of a timber I use the end of the tape with the end clip retracted (pushed into the tape), put a light tick mark, then check for accuracy by cutting 1'. The tape lays somewhat flatter at 1' vs 1".
I do shop drawings in feet & inches.

My first project after 2 sets of horses I had one misplaced mortise(2" off) in a 3 bent 8'x12' storage shed built of 4"x4" frame. I found a 2" block to fill in with.
I was happy! hmmmm, beginners luck???

PS: I clicked 10" above, closest to 12"

[Hilltop366]

If the numbers start a 0 part way up the tape it would not matter where it starts would it?
Laying flat would be handy for lay out work.
If a tape was flat it could have a scale on both sides with one side starting up the tape a bit, have the hook on the side that starts at the end so it would not be in the way for the burn side.

[Brian_Weekley]

I'm with Ernie...I'd love to be able to say "I burn a decimeter".  For someone who uses nothing but metric at work and Imperial at home for carpentry and timber framing, it sure would be easier if the tape measures in the US were metric too!  I know, not what we're use to, but sure does make more sense!

[Sprucegum]

I think all they use now is lazer beams but back in the 60's survey chains, which were steel tapes, had zero about a foot from the end. That foot was marked in 1/100's of an inch for 12 inches starting at the zero. The other direction was marked in feet starting at the zero.

To measure 45' 6 1/2" from point A to point B you place the 45 foot mark at point A then go to zero plus 6.50 to mark point B.

[Brad_bb]

Jim explained what I'm trying to do pretty well.  I don't use the hook for measurements.  I burn.  The problem comes in when you are "burning" and forget to then add that to the dimension you are trying to layout.  Even if it gets caught buy someone checking your work, or even if you catch it before you cut, that's still wasted time and effort.
 
It's even worse when you don't catch it and cut your wood incorrectly, and always too short.  Now you've wasted layout time, and cutting time.

Now for the worst-you get to raising day and you find out you have one or more piece cut wrong, while you've got other people or equipment standing around.

I use the burn technique when doing regular wood working projects, and if I get in too much of a hurry, well, more efforts wasted again.  I did this just the other day after planing, gluing up, sawing, only to cut it too short because I forgot to add back the burned inch.

I want to make a burned tape that will simplify this technique and reduce mistakes and wasted energy. I need to make it more idiot proof to protect me from ME!

It's important to gather good poll data because basically I have to hone the features for The Ultimate Timberframe Tape Measure, and gather data to gauge the market.  Please vote whether you burn or don't burn.  I have to get Pre-sell committments for a minimum of 500 tapes to get the manufacturer to move forward.  This will not pay for all the costs, but will help pay for part of the tooling change needed.  I won't make a dime on this project.  I just want one of these tapes.

Metric people, please be patient.  We need to see if there's enough people who'd buy the standard one first.

Jim is working with me to do a more formal survey.  I will post a link to this as soon as It's ready.  Thank you for all feedback, I will keep all the points in mind.

[barbender]

Thanks for the explanations- I just wasn't familiar with the term.

[Jim_Rogers]

Would you please fill out this survey and let us know what you thing about this idea.

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CGMND2M

Thanks

Jim Rogers

[frwinks]

I voted 10" but I use 12" (only when necessary though).  Easier to keep one foot in mind than 10" IMO..
How much hook slop are you finding on the tapes you're using?  My fatmax is within 1/32"..maybe 1/16" if I yank on it too much :D  Totally acceptable tolerance for most TF work  IMO. If it moves more than that, split the difference and peen the rivets shut. 

[beenthere]

I don't think changing the tape is really going to correct making mental mistakes. They happen regardless, because we get in a hurry and don't pay attention to details. Just sayin...

And stocking a new line of tapes from a manufacturer is not likely to happen, as they will have a small customer base interested in "10 inch 'burned' tapes" (or whatever trailer added). ;)

[Brad_bb]

Beenthere, I've already got a manufacturer willing to work with me.  The owner is a woodworker too and even though it wouldn't return on investment, he's willing to do it if I can find 500 pre-sells to help offset the tooling change cost.

Clearly taking the calculation out of the process and needing to remember to do it,  is one less place where a mistake can be made.  Jim put a link to the survey a few posts above.  Please take 10 seconds to take the survey if you would. Thanks.

[westyswoods]

I've never heard the term burn, but do use it quite often when looking to be very accurate. Also learned many years ago from my old time mentor that when framing with more than one person check your tapes against one another every morning. Amazing what 1/16 or 1/8 difference in tapes will do.

Stay Safe
Westy

[Jim_Rogers]

Amazing what 1/16 or 1/8 difference in tapes will do.

One of the first lessons I learned in timber framing is that a frame should be laid out using only one tape measure.

I have one tape that I only use for layout. I never use it for anything else. I've used it for many years and I have laid out many frames with it.

I have other tapes that I use at the sawmill, or other places. But in my timber framing layout tools box is only one tape.

I was told that if this tape is off then every joint in the frame will be off by the same amount and that it wouldn't matter that much if they are all off the same amount. What I mean is if my tape says it 116 1/2" and your tape says it's 116 9/16's it doesn't matter as everything I measured will be the same. If the frame is off 1/16 by your tape it shouldn't matter to me.

When I did the survey I put down that I'd only buy one tape. As I would only need one tape for the above reasons.

I used to use a tape to measure everything at the sawmill, while sawing lumber and timbers. But I found that I break them all the time. I now use a framing square to measure a lot of things as it doesn't break.

And I found that when the tape breaks is when you are retracting it. The clip breaks off the end of the tape and zing you hear the tape wind up inside by the spring.

I now have a piece of duct tape around the end of my tape so that the clip can't retract all the way into the tape body. This prevents it from ever breaking off. And this most recent sawmill tape is very hard to get the clip out of the body with gloves on, when retracted all the way in. With the duct tape holding the end out it is easier to grab and pull out to measure the length of a board.

I know Brad wants to "idiot proof" his tape by making it this way.

The reason why we were taught to burn 10" was because it is easy to just add 10 to your measurements.
You see we were taught to always convert the measurements drawn on the plans from feet and inches to just inches. And write the new "inches only" measurement on your "working copy" of the plan set.

For example I have been using the measurement of 116 1/2" several times in the thread.
116 1/2" is 9' 8 1/2". And when you have a brace layout of 30" it is hard to figure 9' 8 1/2" less 30" in your head. You have to either convert 30" to 2' 6" and then subtract that from 9' 8 1/2" or convert 9' 8 1/2" to inches and then subtract the 30".

But if you started with 116 1/2" and you subtract 30" the answer is 86 1/2". It is quick and easy to subtract 30 from 116, in your head.

And there are lots of different brace layout dimensions.

When you look at a good framing square and you look at the back side of the tongue you'll see all the brace layout dimensions. Like this:



Here you can see some of them 33, 36, 39, 42, 45, 48, 51, 54, 57, 60. And off camera at the beginning is 24, 27, 30 and off camera on the right is 18 over 24 which is the 3-4-5 layout. My point is that the marks on the framing square were made in inches because the old time timber framers or carpenters did the math in inches in there heads. They didn't have pocket calculators that add and subtract inches from feet and inches. So they asked the square makers to put these on the square for them to see and use.

Another reason we were taught to burn 10" is that that error will show right up.

Here is the story they told us.

Let's say your laying out common rafters for your frame. You have 20 of them on a crib all positioned so that you can now go down the row and layout all the seat cuts. You have the dimension in your head and you're laying out to, ok let's say 116 1/2" and you're burning 10" so it's 126 1/2" where you make your mark.

As your laying out these rafters, someone drives into your yard/workshop/whatever, and interrupts you. You go and deal with them.

And then you come back to your layout. Ok, where was I? Oh yea, seat cuts, 116 1/2" right. Ok, move on.

Now you come along with your saw. Cutting all the seat cuts. And you're cutting them along and each one gets the same cut. And boom, the next rafter the seat cut it way over there...... Why? All these the cut was over here. And this one the cut is over there?
It's because you forgot to add the 10" and that 10" error shows right up. It's 10" off.

If you did the burn by 1" it may not show up as you're cutting your seat cuts. But a 10" error shows right up, as it is such a big error.



In the above picture you can see my layout error. I'm not sure if that was a 10" error or not. That picture was from last summer and I can't remember why or how much it was off. But I do remember that I did that one more than once.

We all make mistakes. And hopefully Brad's new Ultimate Tape Measure will prevent some of them.

Jim Rogers

[Brad_bb]

Here's a picture I had drawn last year when first started looking for someone that could make it.  Hopefully this clears up some confusion.


 

[jimparamedic]

When doing layouts I use a story pole. works for any job requiring duplicate layout. just takes alittle time to make and off you go. remember measure twice cut once.