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Creating Water Pressure

Started by D L Bahler, May 26, 2012, 04:22:41 PM

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Al_Smith

Okay then why are you concerned getting water pressure at 40 PSI other than Indiana says you have to ?

I've been in cheese factories .At one time there were two in this area and they use a ton of water to wash things down just like any dairy related operation .

It's not just water to process the cheese product but the amount you'd have to use for sanitary conditions for the operation .

Up north here south of Toledo is basically drained swamp land nasty sulfer water .They use cisterns but what a pain in the buttocks that is .Others use ponds with a water purification system ,which is rain water too but rather than thousands of gallons they have millions of gallons .

So  that  might be a solution for storage but you still need something to pump it rather than a hand pump .

Electricity is not a form of energy but rather a method to transfer power .It doesn't matter if it comes from the grid or a generater .Fact some of the Amish near Bellefontaine Ohio use diesel generaters to operate thier businesses .Of course while they don't rely on the power company it costs them about 4-5 times more to make their own .

I mean a horse is a horse but the danged things can only do so much .

You know if you want to prove an operation of any size can operate without the use of electricity best of luck .Sure it can be done but like I said you're going to have a fortune in doing so .

D L Bahler

My only concern with water pressure is that the state requires it. Otherwise I am more than happy to use free-flowing water out of an overhead holding tank (not storage tank). 

We are aware of the need for water to sanitize equipment and clean up. We are also aware that most people are extremely wasteful of water because they have a limitless easy supply. We have figured on 2 to 3 gallons of water for every gallon of milk that passes through this facility, which is plenty.

Also we are making a traditional cheese with traditional methods -we lack a lot of the equipment that most cheese producers would use. We have a very simple copper vat, which is easy to clean (but we will need to keep a supply of vinegar for this, we clean our copper using salt and vinegar combined and then heated, which creates hydrochloric acid. This is necessary to remove any tarnish on the surface, which if left to build up could react with the milk to form copper sulphates, which are poisonous. Copper must be kept bright.)
Other than that, we have 2 tables, a mixing paddle, a cheese harp, a thermometer, a culturing pan, a few measuring cups, cheese cloth, draining box and a couple of molds to wash.
The draining tables are wiped down, not flooded with water. The mixing paddle, harp, thermometer, culturing pan, measuring cups, and cheese hoops are washed like kitchen dishes. The cheesecloth is scrubbed through boiling water before and after use.

Our part of the state is largely drained peat bog. Our water table is high and the ground water is full of iron and in some places also has very high sulfur. The site where our facility is located has high quantities of both. And these are both chemicals we absolutely do not want in our cheese, or getting into our culture, etc. They could mess things up bad. And like I said, if our culture gets messed up we have to go all the way to Switzerland to get it again. Und dass ist einfach zu teuer!

You mention electricity. You are right that it costs a lot more to produce electricity to run things than to just buy it. But, who says you have to use electricity to begin with?
Electricity is really an inefficient means of transferring power on a small scale -it's great for industrial-sized operations like our massive grid. But if you are doing it for yourself, you are really better off with mechanical motion of some sort.
Now of course, if you have a house and you want a microwave, a refrigerator, a computer, etc. then you need electricity. But for a lot of operations you can do very well with mechanical energy, such as flywheels.

We are located in an area where, due to topography, there is a lot of un-tillable land, which is grown up in woods -in some cases very very old woods. In our area we would have a limitless supply of firewood just from going around and picking up what's already dead, or clearing out after loggers, etc. And if I need a little more, I can run down to the sawmill and get a heaping pickup load of firewood for $30.
So we have for a very long time been looking into a multitude of ways of generating wood power with a simple system (I want to avoid rankin-cycle steam, it scares me).
We also have a limitless supply of horse manure -16 horses that make the stuff faster than we can get rid of it. So we have also considered a general biomass heater, used to run some form of external combustion engine and my brother's all about the stirling cycle, so we'll probably go with that)
And I know horse manure can burn! Which reminds of my time in the Tibetan area in the mountains of western China, when we made our camp fires out of yak patties. And you'd see yak manure neatly stored stuck to the walls of every house -it was their heat source for the very long, cold winter.

There are solutions, we just have to look for them.

Al_Smith

Tibet ,surely you jest .Yak chit  too boot .Horse type I know about ,yak no idea .Occasionally a little of the bull type but that's another subject and meaning but I'm sure you're aware of that . ;)

Now why would anyone go to Tibet unless you were doing an article for National Geographic ?

I suppose with all that firewood you could run a set of line shafts from a steam engine if you wanted to .If you don't like chainsaws and feel energetic a bow saw does just as well but takes more elbow grease .

Now then 3 gallon of water ,I flush more than that down the toilet each time .The water really doesn't go any place .Up the Maumee river into Lake Erie ,over the falls of Niagra and out into the Atlantic .

Floats around a little bit evaporates into a cloud and comes back as rain .That very rain could fall over Indiana and might be  residue of that Budwieser I drank last November could be in the cheese .So much for rain water . You see in reality  water is just like beer or coffee ,you can only rent it .  8)

tyb525

C'mon Al, don't make us ridicule and question your every move. The man knows what he wants to do and why he wants to do it, and why it may or may not be practical. He just needs help with how to do it.
LT10G10, Stihl 038 Magnum, many woodworking tools. Currently a farm service applicator, trying to find time to saw!

Jeff

Quote from: tyb525 on May 28, 2012, 01:16:40 PM
C'mon Al, don't make us ridicule and question your every move. The man knows what he wants to do and why he wants to do it, and why it may or may not be practical. He just needs help with how to do it.

I concur.
Just call me the midget doctor.
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Dave Shepard

I think the line shaft/flywheel, however it's powered, is the right direction for you. An air charged pressure tank will extend the operating intervals needed between pump cycles. They are very simple, and you can make your own. A water ram won't do what you want to do without a continuous flow of water. The efficiency can be calculated, but it's not great even in the best scenario.

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OneWithWood

D L , What is the name of your company?  Where exactly are you located?  I love cheese and I am very familiar with Indiana.
One With Wood
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D L Bahler

We don't have any cheese available to the public at this time, but aim to have some by late fall, and some fully aged by Christmas. We are building this building so we can be a legal cheese producer according to the requirements of the state of Indiana.

Our company is Bähler Brothers Farms, and we will make cheese and have a lot of other farm products as well. Or heritage is Swiss, and out cheese is a Swiss Alpine style, though we will also produce a Parmesan-style (based on the Swiss Sbrinz) and a classic Emmentaler style (I'm actually going to Switzerland this summer to learn a little more about the Alpine Cheese). A lot of our products will also reflect our heritage. In addition to cheese, we plan to produce cured and smoked meat products such as hams, and sausages, home-made sauerkraut, brick oven baked breads, and a few other things.

We are located just outside the town of Galveston Indiana, 1 mile off of State road 35, and 1 mile of of State Road 18.

D L Bahler

As for the pumping system,

We do plan to eventually run everything off of the shaft/flywheel, but it will be some time before we can get that system up and running. So we do need a temporary system in the mean time. This is what I am considering the hydraulic ram for.
We have two 200 gallon tanks that we can use for holding water, which is significantly more water than we need for any single day's use. If we could by means of a simple mechanical pump get water into them, we could run a ram. Not an ideal situation I know, but plenty suitable until a better system can be put together. We are kind of in a hurry to get things going and legal, so we are going to have to put a few temporary solutions in place at least for this year's work.

Doing stuff the hard way for a year or two will give us the time we need to ensure our system is properly designed and all the kinks worked out before we set up the more complicated equipment.

As for wind power, There is something of a 'wind tunnel' nearby, created by the fact that to the west of us lies large open fields, and there is a narrow passage in the wood beside us. We can get high winds through here, but not steady.
Besides that, wind turbines and storage batteries cost $$$$$$$$$.

dail_h

Hey DL,might look for older meyers hand pump. some of them were pressaure pumps. one i remember seeing was a two cylinder horizontal with a long vertical lever tha worked back n forth.Not sure how much volume , or pressaure , but kno they were used to pump water into old steamers.Good luck with your venture, n let us kno how works out
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r.man

The problem is pressurizing a limited amount of water. Anyone doing this stuff off grid is already willing to throw labour at otherwise simple electric machine jobs so my first inclination is a heavy weight that has to be raised by chain or rope blocks and then lowered onto a water filled bladder. The bladder can be filled from an overhead tank or from a cistern hand pump before the weight is lowered and with a bit of experimentation I'm sure a sustainable 40 psi can be obtained. Use free flowing water for some jobs and pressurized for others. Meet the letter of the law and get on with your life. This is an example of government micro managing too much. They should demand that your plant be clean not tell you how to get it clean.
Life is too short or my list is too long, not sure which. Dec 2014

D L Bahler

Here is the pump that we will be using to lift water.
This is part of what will eventually be a 4-cylinder or 5-cylinder pump.

This is a simple piston pump relying on displacement to move water, and is capable of creating pressure and lifting to a height.
The concept itself is ancient, attributed to the Greek inventor Ktesibios of Alexandria.

 

 

The pistons themselves will be driven by a crankshaft, which is my own variation. In the past these pumps were powered by a lever. By attaching a crankshaft, we can power it by hand or by an external power source such as a flywheel-shaft.

I agree that the regulation is a little much. But we have no wish to get the gubberment on our backs :)



scsmith42

Quote from: Jeff on May 28, 2012, 02:00:24 PM
Quote from: tyb525 on May 28, 2012, 01:16:40 PM
C'mon Al, don't make us ridicule and question your every move. The man knows what he wants to do and why he wants to do it, and why it may or may not be practical. He just needs help with how to do it.

I concur.

My thoughts as well.  This is an interesting challenge, and ought to be right up our alley to determine options and the best solution.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

scsmith42

D.L.

What natural resources are available on your farm?  Do you have any streams or running water?  If so, how far from the building location?  I'm thinking of a stream to run a ram pump or to power a water wheel / flywheel system.

Second, how tall are the trees surrounding your building.  Is there a spot where a solar panel can be mounted to the side of a tree, high above the ground, where there are not any adjacent trees to block the panel and have good southern exposure?  This would limit the amount of wire that needs to be run.

How much duty cycle do you need for the water pressure?  In other words, do you have to have the pressure available 8 hours a day, 24 hours a day, or ????  Also, how much reserve capacity do you need for your pump system?

Another option (although not necessarily a good one) would be a small wood fired boiler system to develop steam pressure.  The drawback is the permitting and inspections required (plus the danger); these have to be closely tended to.

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

D L Bahler

We don't have a running stream nearby. There is a pasture to the south a bit, with good southern exposure. We intend to have a small solar panel here in the future but not yet.

We also have a good number of horses and their endless supply of manure. We have been thinking about trying to extract methane to use for fuel or maybe just lighting.


r.man

For normal daylight hours you can't beat light pipes for any non south facing rooms. Amazingly simple and effective.
Life is too short or my list is too long, not sure which. Dec 2014

sawguy21

This is an interesting discussion. I have to agree with Al to a certain extent, it seems like a lot of work for a limited return but that is not my call. If the brothers can make it work more power to them
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

JSNH

My neighbor needed water. His house is up a hill but his well is at the bottom. He has no public electricity. At first it was start a generator to pump the water. That was not too good. He than built a water tank about 500 gallons out of concrete well sections buried in the ground above his house. That tank set up is about 50 feet higher than the house and 200 feet away. He installed solar and would pump that water up to the tank on sunny days. The water would gravity flow to the house giving him 25 PSI. The well line went to the house and a single line went to the tank. It has been working for years. He has now found a location above his tank with water all winter and spring and he dug a well there and lets that run down to his tank.
Now there are some nice dc solar pumps that work. They are made for direct conection to solar panels no batteries needed. They don't pump much but if you can find a high enough location for a large enough tank they keep up with you use. You just need a tank big enough for 3 days water and high enough.

I did have a 2,500 gal tank in the house for hot water storage. For 17 years it had 2,000 gals of water in it with air over it at 30 psi. So large storage is possiable but a rated tank that size would be cost prohibitive today. Back than I welded it up myself.

D L Bahler

r.man, please explain light pipes.

I like the idea of a removable weight to create pressure, but then the question arises as to how to create a good water bladder or some such.

r.man

Sorry I've been a bit busy so I missed the question until today. A light pipe is a three piece light moving device made up of a dome or collector that mounts on the roof, a diffuser or light dispersing lens that mounts on the ceiling of the room and a pipe made of reflective material that joins the two. They are less intrusive to the building than a skylight but put more light in the room. From what I have seen and heard very little extra carpentry is involved in mounting one. They are fairly pricey but if I could scrounge up a clear dome I would try putting one together with found parts and test out the efficiency of a homemade one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_tube 
Life is too short or my list is too long, not sure which. Dec 2014

smoothED

What about a pressure tank from a standard well water system? Use a hand pump to bring up the pressure, and the bladder in the tank will supply you with pressure for awhile then pump it up again.

D L Bahler

Kind of what we are thinking right now is to lift water up to an overhead tank and just let gravity work for us (large pipes, so volume but not pressure)

Then to satisfy the State of Indiana, we will also have a small pressure tank that we can switch a valve and pressurize it with our hand pump. We'll never use it (at least not much) but it will be there. The law reads that there must be pressurized water. It doesn't say you actually have to use it  ;)
So we'll have two lines at our sink, one pressurized and one fed by gravity.

I worked out a system where if this pump is run off of a flywheel, a mechanical device will allow it to keep pressure in a system within a certain range. But for now, we're going the cheater route. If we are pumping manually, which we will be at first, it's a whole lot easier to just pump a day's water up into the overhead tank rather than going by every few minutes and re-pressurizing the line.

den

I think you need to look into a windmill for pumping water uphill, if you have a hill.
You can have a combo, one type plus a solar booster pump to get the required pressure.
There's lot of help here.
http://www.vintagewindmillparts.com/

Dealer with pumping specs
http://www.thewindengine702.com/index.php
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grweldon

Quote from: Ianab on May 26, 2012, 05:27:06 PM
If you have some flow of water, and fall, then a water ram pump will give the pressure that you need.
http://williamsonrampump.co.nz/

Ian

That is absolutely awesome!  Make physics work FOR you not against you!
My three favorite documents: The Holy Bible, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States.

MReinemann

Skimmed through the post, but not sure if a lister motor would be able to power what you are looking to do.  They run at like 650rpm.  You can you tube them.  Think there called listeroids now because the U.K. doesn't make them anymore and India or somewhere is making a knock off of them.  They will run off all sorts of fuel and are very efficient.
-Matt

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