Creating Water Pressure

[D L Bahler]

I have a need to create a pressurized water system, and the two general methods are not overly practical in this situation. We will not have an electric pump, and we cannot put in a tank 75 feet in the air. So for this reason, we are trying to figure out ways to achieve a target pressure of at least 40 PSI in the lines.

Two scenarios I have considered: A ballasted tank, where water is under pressure from a significant weight on top of it; forced air pressure, where compressed air is pumped into the tank to maintain an elevated pressure.

Consider that this system is not able to run on electricity, and if at all possible we would like to avoid the loud noise of internal combustion engines, but we plan to have power supplied from flywheels.

[beenthere]

How many flies ya gonna think it will take?

[Ianab]

If you have a flywheel, you can connect a pump of some sort?

Question is, what is powering the flywheel?

If you have some flow of water, and fall, then a water ram pump will give the pressure that you need.

http://williamsonrampump.co.nz/

Ian

[D L Bahler]

I hadn't thought of a ram pump. That's obviously a better solution than What I had thought.

Here is the scenario: We are building a cheese plant for commercial cheese production. Part of the law in the State of Indiana requires that we have pressurized water in our plant. However, the plant is not outfitted with electricity, or hooked to a pressurized supply line of any sort. Rain waiter is diverted into an underground cistern, by way of filters. It is then manually pumped to a holding tank in the attic of our building immediately before use. This tank is cleaned and disinfected regularly, and the water again is filtered upon exiting the tank before entering our supply lines.

A water flow could be created by a large pipe flowing out of the holding tank, which could be used to drive a ram to create pressure, and pressurize a lower tank. And the waste from the waste valve could just be diverted back into the cistern, so there is no loss of water.

On a related note, we also have to have a supply of hot flowing water, and it would be nice if we could have pressurized hot water as well -the though is that we could have a copper water pipe coiled around the exhaust from our vat (which is wood fired)

Of course, this hot water line would have to be equipped with a check valve to keep hot water from traveling into the cold lines, and a release valve to keep dangerous pressure from building up and causing bad things to happen.

[Al_Smith]

This whole story is very confusing .Indiana is not some third world country now .Except perhaps the roads but that's another story . :D

Where in the world could you go in that state and not have electrical power if you wanted it ? If it were Amish you wouldn't be typing on a computer .

[D L Bahler]

If it were Amish you wouldn't be typing on a computer .

Bisch du ganz schur, Al?

Actually, I am Amish-Mennonite

Seriously though, it's not so much that electricity isn't available, as much as that it is not wanted.
We are making cheese using some very old methods, in a building built by hand in a very old style, etc. 'Old World' is a big part of our angle, and is just the way we prefer to do things.

Also, being off the grid is appealing -and some times, being off the grid doesn't mean supplying your own electricity but rather supplying alternate means of generating power, or water pressure, etc.

We like to do things by hand, by our own cleverness, etc.

[shelbycharger400]

yes... it can be done..
its no longer cheap and feasble to not use an electric water pump.

to use a holding tank, with a weight in it, would have to be machined,  or a concentric plate with a leather seal.  in a 55 gal drum,  you would need to calculate the total volume of the pipeline,  most likely a weight will be around 200 lbs.  Only problem is that you will have to use a block and pulley overhead to raise the weight to fill the drum.
Cheese makin...    and the enzimes from a cows stomach to make it happen...   o yea!   

I wouldnt reuse ANY waste water, or repipe it into the clean water.
this idea is a BAD idea!!!  Also water needs to be in constant motion or bacteria WILL grow.  this is part of the reason why they say that its not real good to drink water from the hot water heater.    also before anyone gets the chance to chime in on bacteria and hot water heaters... water heated properly to kill all the bacteria...it will scald you if you take a shower in it.

[D L Bahler]

Water in this system is not for consumption, ever. No water goes into our cheese at any step, just milk and enzymes and salt. While water might be used in the brining tank, this is all boiled before it's put in, and the brine re-boiled every few days, as well as fully saturated with salt (salt dissolved until no more salt will go in the water at room temp.)

This water is to be used in conjunction with soap, cleanser, and disinfectants in order to wash equipment, and rinse away all milk and whey residue. Much water will be boiled for disinfecting all processing equipment.
This is NOT drinking or food-application water.

Furthermore, the cistern take is subterranean and total dark, minimizing the ability for bacteria to grow. The tank is lined on the bottom with limestone, coated with lime plaster, and the water filtered through limestone -lime and limestone are antibacterial. The water upon exiting the tank filters through limestone and activated carbon, and is again filtered upon exiting the upper holding tank before entering the source. The water going back into the cistern is NOT waste water, it is the water discharged from the hydraulic ram and is exactly the same water that otherwise would go into the pipes. THERE IS NO DANGER in diverting this water back into holding.

Everybody stores water for use. You store water in a static environment in your pressure tank, or if you live in the city water is static in the water tower. Furthermore, the water is repeatedly passed through alkaline filters (limestone). As such, I am not the least bit concerned with bacteria. (In case you can't tell, I am not totally uninformed when it comes to water sanitation)

The most dangerous environment here is the upper holding tank, and it is dangerous because light can actually get to it. That's why we will empty it every day (drain it back into the cistern) and clean it out and disinfect it. That's also why there will be a secondary filter underneath it.

I would about bet the farm that the water running into our pipes would pass any water-safety tests, and probably would be safer than our well water when you get right down to it.

[fuzzybear]

12 v water pump from an RV attached to pressure tank run by 12v battery and solar panels.  You will get the required pressure you need. That is what we use to power the shower, dishwasher, sinks, out in the bush. The water is stored in 250 gal totes. Check a local car wash for old totes. The ones used to hold soap are easily cleanable and sell for about $75 each.
The water system in our camp cost under $300 and we have a constant source of water. We added an on demand hot water heater that runs off of 2 D cell batteries and a 20lb propane tank. It will get hot enough to meet health codes, and is easy to operate and maintain. Hope this helps with some ideas.
FB

[Al_Smith]

If it were Amish you wouldn't be typing on a computer .

Bisch du ganz schur, Al?

Actually, I am Amish-Mennonite

, We like to do things by hand, by our own cleverness, etc.

Don't take me wrong because I'm right in the midst of old order Mennonite and German Baptists in western Ohio.Kind of funny ,while I have the beard with moustace my neighbors are stashless .

Fact a very good friend of my wife used a computer at the library although by her German Baptist faith  she was not permited to own one .

I just wondered what the deal was .

Yeah there's ways to circumvent the electric company if you are crafty .It's not cost effective though .That choice of course remains in the hands of the end users . ;)

[D L Bahler]

another consideration is that the well water on this site has issues -terrible sulfur problem, the water stinks and tastes bad. I DO NOT want sulfur coming into contact with milk products. I do not want sulfur potentially mucking up the cheese-making bacteria, and contaminating our culture that we would have to go all the way to Switzerland to replace. It's easier to kill bacteria out of rainwater than to filter the solids out of our ground water.

[Al_Smith]

About the only way to get sulfer out of water is by injecting air through it but that induces bacteria which needs chlorine  bleach to clean it then you would get cheese that tastes like Chlorox .Not good .

Now what in the world does "Bisch du ganz schur "mean ? It must be German slang because this is what I got from Google .--bisch you all shearing .Shearing what ,a goat or a big old Lincoln ram .I'm confused . ???

[D L Bahler]

So you see why I'd just rather collect filtered rainwater?
The only water that comes in direct contact with the cheese is in the brining tank, and this cannot contain any bleach or iodine because you don't want to kill the bacteria in the cheese -we have to use pure salt with no additives for this reason. Bleach contamination would cause the cheese to completely flop and the milk proteins would spoil instead of becoming fermented by the cheese making bacteria.

Haha, it's PA German, which is kind of englishified

It means, more or less, Are you sure, Al?

so "schur' is borrowed from English, "sure"
and Bisch would be in High German "bist"
So Hochdeutch würde so sein: Bist du ganz sicher?

[Paul_H]

I think he called you an old goat,Al.  :D

[Al_Smith]

 :D Couldn't prove it by me .

[wheelinguy]

I think fuzzybear is on the right track, a small solar collector to run a small pump would simplify your operation and the more simple the less likely to generate problems.

[Roxie]

Welcome to the forum D L Bahler

I am a driver for the Old Order that live Lancaster and Chester County in Pennsylvania.  In the course of my week, I pick up hired help and cheese orders for a vegetable market from an Old Order cheese maker.  Would it be helpful to you for me to ask the cheese family what system they use to pressurize their water? 

Perhaps each state has different regulations, or is this required by the Department of Agriculture?   

[D L Bahler]

Regarding solar power, our building is located in a woods, and although there is a nearby horse pasture, we would have to run a wire a good ways to get reliable solar, which has its associated problems with amperage losses and such. We actually do plan to have a small solar panel in the future to operate mixers and possibly a pump at that time, but we do need a system until then to pump our water -we can mix by hand until then.

My bet would be most Amish farms would use a compressed air pump to pressurize water. At least, that is what is done around here if a gasoline or diesel pump is not used. But we do not want the noise of an internal combustion engine or the drone of an air compressor if we can avoid it.

For other reasons, we are trying to avoid anything that would jar you into the modern world, but we still have to come up with solutions that allow us to meet code and sell our product commercially. And also, we would really like for our operation to be able to act as independently as possible -having to buy as little as possible. We will have our own milk, and process our own rennet from slaughtered bull calves (we keep the heifers) and we will even have a few hogs so we can dispose of our whey.

The law in question is from the Indiana Board of Animal Health, which has jurisdiction over all dairy operations. So I do not know if it is the same in other states. For what it's worth, Indiana generally has fewer regulations than any nearby state, or any state south or east of us.

[Paul_H]

Question is, what is powering the flywheel?

Ian raised a good question,what is an acceptable source of power(to you) to drive the flywheel? If not internal combustion or wind/solar what do you have in mind?
To compress air takes a large amount of effort.

[D L Bahler]

Likely flywheel power is supplied by an external combustion engine, likely stirling cycle, or some other type of heat engine which is to be powered be either wood or biomass.

My brother is the stirling guy, so I can't say for certain all the technical aspects.

The biggest requirement for acceptable power is quiet, and stirling meets this. 

[Paul_H]

It would be great to see a Stirling in use for a project like this.Woodmiser was involved with the technology a few years ago but stepped back from it.

What sort of system does your brother run at this time?

[Ianab]

Yeah, a Stirling Engine could do the job easy enough. Just need the right size pump / drive pulleys to make it work. The flywheel is just there to smooth out the power delivery (and keep a single cylinder engine ticking over) The pressure isn't an issue, it's the combination of pressure and flow that matters. If you want both then you need some serious power.

Ian

[D L Bahler]

In this scenario, a large stirling would be used to run a big flywheel attached a a pully drive shaft, from which power can be taken to run equipment, such as a pump. The stirling is not just to run a pump, but as a general power source.

By using the principle of mechanical advantage, this system can generate a great deal of power from the low-power motion generated by a stirling engine.

[Al_Smith]

You are trying to do the impractical for whatever reason .I mean you could put a horse on a tread mill to get power I suppose but it would take more than just one horse .It would obviously be one horse power though .

If you try to shove water with air pressure you still have the problem of injecting contamination because of the air .

If you could find a big giant aeromotor wind mill I'm sure you could shove water into a 100 foot tower  which would take about that much to get 40 PSI of static  pressure .

You're in the woods though .No wind to amount to anything   . Then what about the amount of water .Unless you're making a pound of cheese at a time it would take a giant cistern to hold that much rain water .You know water from a cistern isn't all that clean either .I suppose you could run it through a bank of active carbon filters at 10 dollars pop for the elements an 30 for the housing .

By the time you get through figuring how to stay off the grid you're going to have half a million invested which means you'd have got a 100 bucks a pound for the cheese but you wouldn't have a power bill .Good luck

[D L Bahler]

Al,
just what are you thinking about the amount of water needed to make cheese?
As stated earlier, there is exactly NO water used to make our cheese, aside from the salt brine which is never thrown out and can very easily be brought in from another source (like, our house for example)

I know it can be done easily and affordably and cleanly, because it has been so done for thousands of years, and is still done so to this day in the place with perhaps the strongest cheesemaking tradition on earth, by people who are extremely practically minded.

In the Berner Oberland region of Switzerland, cheese is produced without electricity, gasoline, etc. They manage just fine. Their water is rain water, because it is not possible to drill a well into the top of a mountain and expect to actually get water out of it. The only electricity is that sometimes there is a small solar panel powering a slow electric mixer. These facilities are completely 'off the grid' because the grid doesn't exist up there. Also because the people love their work and their ways of doing it.

And I'm not considering an air pump at all, and I said that clearly. I don't like them, they are dirty. I mentioned them because many Amish around here use them. But I don't want them.

All houses in our area used to have rain cisterns, it's how people got their water. It works.
A 3000 gallon cistern or storage amounting to so much would be more than enough for our needs. The plan is to make a 525 cubic foot tank, which would have a capacity of 3927 gallons. With this tank, we could go months without rain, and in an emergency we can run water in from a residential pump elsewhere on the property.

And our filters instead of using activated charcoal will likely use a low tech version, charcoal fines. Not as much surface area, meaning you have to have more of it, but it's absolutely free to us, because we have our own kiln to make it in (it's really quite easy). This works fine, people did so for a long time. It just needs to be thoroughly washed to remove any dust first (although the dust won't harm you if ingested, it's pretty much just carbon and calcium)