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Gear Drive Trolley on a Frick?

Started by JoeBrittany21, May 21, 2012, 12:21:01 PM

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JoeBrittany21

Hi, I am new to the site. So happy to have found this wealth of info. Thank You.

I recently bought what I think is a Frick sawmill but the trolley for the log is moved by a gear coming out of the husk and there are teeth bolted to the side of the wooden trolley near the track. So the gear makes contact with the trolley and there she goes. My question is.. Is this a Frick and about when was it made? Does anyone have experience with this gear drive? I was wondering if this was a good purchase.
Thank You.

sealark37

Welcome to the forum.  The circle-saw guys are out-numbered here, but the bandsaw members seem to be glad to have us.  You may be looking at the gig back mechanism that retracts the head blocks when the carriage is ready for the next log.  If your rig is a Frick, the name is usually  molded into the head blocks.  The carriage is normally powered by a cable drum that is driven from the husk frame.  The gig back is engaged by a foot lever that engages the gear that you see to the rod that connects the head blocks.  If your  new saw mill is a kit ( a collection of parts), you could have any number of standard or custom built features that must be sorted out to get it running.  You have come to the right place for help.  Don't be shy, since no one else is here.  Oh yes, we love pictures.  Regards, Clark  :)

bandmiller2

Joe,some of the heavy duty older mills used rack and pinion to feed the carriage.If you can figure out the picture thing, probibly we can recognise your mill.Most of the newer old mills went to cable,especially after teeth were broken off the racks.Welcome, feel at home.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

jimparamedic

Post some pics I have seen an American mill with that kind of feed.Also it used a paper clutch drive. All in all a cool set up.

dblair

I only know of a one other person with a rack and pinion drive and he lives in Va. in the Culpepper area . He told me it was made in N.C. in the late 19th century . I would love to see some pics of your mill . Welcome to the site
old Appomattox Iron Works circle mill.

JSNH

There are at least two in NH that are rack driven but both are Lane mills.

JoeBrittany21

 

 

I must be an idiot, putting pics on this is harder than brain surgery.

JoeBrittany21


JoeBrittany21



I hope these pics help to identify the mill. I cannot find a name on it anywhere. Part numbers or casting numbers have a P on them as a prefix.

beenthere

Joe
You did well.
You have three pics in your gallery, and you pasted one two now three in your post. One more shot at modifying that post and you will have all three... 8)

Looks to be in pretty good shape. Just need some solid wood to bolt to, and some HP.
The rack on the carriage must be how long?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

JoeBrittany21

The carriage all together is 24' long so my son and I are thinking this thing can cut 20' logs. 48" blade.

JoeBrittany21

I have to do a lot of reading and calculating for the HP but a friend of mine offered me a 12" chipper motor that has a 4 belt pulley on it. I would have to take the flat belt pulley off and replace it with a comparable pulley if I was to use that motor.

Ron Wenrich

That doesn't look like any Frick setup that I've seen.  The P is a clue to the make.  Many of the manufacturers used to put a letter on their parts to identify it as one of theirs. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

ALWOL

   Both Geiser and the Lane and Bodely Company made sawmills with the rack and pinion drive. I think yours is a Geiser because it has the enclosed gearbox around the mandrel that drives the variable speed feedworks. You can find pictures of it at vintagemachinery.org.

Alan
There's a big difference between staying busy and making money.

JoeBrittany21

Both Geiser and the Lane and Bodely Company made sawmills with the rack and pinion drive. I think yours is a Geiser because it has the enclosed gearbox around the mandrel that drives the variable speed feedworks. You can find pictures of it at vintagemachinery.org.

Alan that is a good website loaded with info but I can't find the type of gearbox that I have here. Its funny because certain parts look Frick other parts look American.

JoeBrittany21

Well after some wire brushing I found the manufacturer's name "Canton Saw Co. of Canton Ohio".

bandmiller2

Joe,its nice to know who built your mill but most of them are long out of business and its condition that matters.Old mills are usally close enough so parts can be mixed and matched.Your friction wheel drive is clever its the system used on most snowblowers for foward/ reverse.Most mills were built for many years and changed their parts suppliers especially around war time when they couldn't get what they needed.Yours should be an interesting build. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

JoeBrittany21

I started tearing the trolley down and it is interesting how they lubricated the axles shafts for the rail wheels. They put oil soaked oakum in a cup and it would swell up and touch the axle in the process with oil. Simple but effective. I had to make a new oiler cup since one was missing. Check out the new one on the right side.

 
It might be a sin to have this much fun.

hardtailjohn

Do you have this mill on eBay or is it another one like this?
John
I'm so far behind, I think I'm ahead!

JoeBrittany21

Hey John,

I do have it on ebay. I always list all my new toys on ebay so my better half thinks I bought them to resell. SHHH don't tell her. 

 

My wife told me I am not hen pecked. :D

JoeBrittany21

First soapy bath in a long time. These are the balance of the bearing blocks and caps for the trolley axles. 5 axles all together with the ones I worked on over the weekend.

 

I'll be cleaning these then remove the oakum from the cup and pack the cups with new oakum and oil. Once I clean them I will show the bearing wear and how I have been replacing the bearings.

Was at the plumbing supply, the guy never heard of oakum. I must be getting old.

JoeBrittany21

The bearings are 1/2 type made out of  babbit material. Only one was completely gone and riding on the axle but it isnt that bad.

 

I already ordered the babbitt material, now to make a template so I can pour new ones.

bandmiller2

Joe good babbit is expensive as its mostly tin,whats in the bearings now can be remelted with a little new stuff.For what your doing 50/50 lead tin solder will work fine.Years ago I owned a JD  A that was a transitional model between two piece bearings and aluminum bushing, main crank bearings.Could not get the part from Deere.I made up a brew of wheel weights and 50/50 solder poured the bearing machined it on the lathe.The tractor is still running see it at pulls every so often.If your not a strict restorer you can use pillow blocks if the shaft size is close,thats what I did on my carriage. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

JoeBrittany21

You got it. Thats what I am going to do. I wasn't sure about the solder though. I already ordered the babbitt material it was $30 bucks including shipping for 5 lbs. I thought that was cheap enough.
I am thinking that if I setup each axle, number them and the block I can rebabbit each one according to its liking.

JoeBrittany21

The third dog on my mill needing a little welding, so I braced it right away and then painted it. I got some babbitt material today by the USPS. I will probably start that process next week.

 
If I am boring anyone or if I should be on a different thread let me know and I will fix it.

beenthere

Not boring. Enjoying the story, pics, and the build.  8)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

JoeBrittany21

This is the jig I made to hold the bearing block still and the axle centered while pouring the babbitt material.
I also put wheels on the husk so I could move it around in the garage to rebuild it. That sucker weighs a ton.
I also had to make a ladle to pour the babbitt material.

  

  

 

bandmiller2

Joe when I used to pour bearings for the old make and break engines I would drill and tap two holes from the base up to where the shaft runs.That way I could adjust the shaft to perfect alignment before pour.Will help to heat the blocks before pour and use large clothesline type rope[cotton] and modeling clay to hold the babbit in.After drill for a grease fitting and cut a couple of channels for grease. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

bandmiller2

Time for a sea story,this is no $hi@.An old friend ran an automotive machine shop years ago he was called into boston harbor to work on an old steam tug.What he found was a steam engine built from all pipe fittings frame and all.The connecting rod main journals were pipe tees cut in half and babbeted, clamped with "U" bolts.He said he was fastenated with that engine and it had worked for very many years. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

JoeBrittany21

Bandmiller,

That tip on the modeling clay and rope was what I was needing. Thanks for that, I was trying to think of what would work, you must have been reading my mind.
I am going to put clamps on the jig to pull the angle against the block on one side and the round collar on the other but now I will put a little clay on each side to hold in the babbitt. Can I use kids clay for that or is it something different?

As far as the centering of the axle, the two round pieces on my jig are based at the point where the wheel was pressed on so when I used a mic to check them they were all within a good tolerance to one another.  I actually have a groove cut in the jig where the axle rests to center the axle so that all the centerlines of the axles will be the same.

Will I still need the groove cut into the babbitt even though oil soaked oakum will be touching the axle to lube it?

JoeBrittany21

Bandmiller2

Most of my mechanical experience started with my first car which was a 47 plymouth.
I am totally intrigued by this old mill because the Ideas behind it are so simple yet effective.
My dad was one that always tried to do with what he had so we would be out in the garage every night when I was a kid trying to fix something. I loved those days. The only difference was I wasn't so sore the next morning.

dblair

in the old days we would have put a coat of red lead on the shaft heated it until dry then poured it with babbit . after cooling put oil on the shaft and the lead would come alive and no boring needed .
old Appomattox Iron Works circle mill.

bandmiller2

Joe, kiddie modeling clay will work for small patching but I prefer the stuff they use on electric boxes to weatherproof them where the leads come in,its tougher and not so apt to blow out. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

JoeBrittany21

Bandmiller2
I can get that electrical dough at lowes. THanks for the tip.

dblair,
Do you mean the red lead would make room for the oil?

Thanks for all this good advice.

dblair

I do mean that the red lead made the clearance . that was way back in my job shop years in the 60's .
old Appomattox Iron Works circle mill.

JoeBrittany21

Whew, I am glad that job is done. All 12 bushings have been rebabbitted. Now I can start putting the log carriage back together again.

In the pics:
1. I covered the axle with soot from the torch which stops the babbitt from sticking as well as giving a little space for oil then I placed the axle into the jig.
2. This jig keeps the axle center in a vertical and horizontal plane to the bearing block. I am not sure if this is considered a pillow block or not.
3. This pic shows the oil left in the bearing block casting cooking off. You can see the head of the torch I am holding it under the block. The smoke also seems to say its hot enough to pour. I bought one of those lazer temperature guns they work pretty neat for this.
4. I heated the ladle with a propane torch and melted the babbitt. This last pic shows the finished product. (Ain't she purdy!)

  

 


 

snowshoveler

I was trained to do that a long time ago. By the looks of it you were the teacher.
Very nice job indeed. You should be proud of that, not many people can do that anymore.
Regards Chris
International T5 dozer
JD M tractor
MF skidloader
Jonsered chainmill
Vintage Belsaw

JoeBrittany21

Thanks Chris,

Appreciate it. I had a fun time today.

dblair

old Appomattox Iron Works circle mill.

tractormanNwv

You did GOOD Joe,  8) I just got through pouring new bearings for the 4 inch crankshaft in my 20 hp Bessemer oilfield engine....makes ya feel good going back in time even if for a short time huh? Looking forward to more progress news....

Jim

hardtailjohn

I'm so far behind, I think I'm ahead!

bandmiller2

Joe is there just babbit in the upper half and not in the cap.? Good job,are you going to use grease or oil cups. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

JoeBrittany21

Here is a pic of what the bearing looks like on the axle. The flat part gets bolted under the wooden log cradle. I numbered each axle end and each bearing. When I poured the babbitt I did each axle separately.

 
The cup gets packed with oakum so it makes good contact with the axle and then oil can be squirted into the sides of the cup. Oakum swells upto 10 times its size from the absorbtion of the oil.
From what I read it would be oiled at the start of the day and then at lunch time.


 


  I got the oakum at Lowes, not all of the stores carry it, I had to shop around to find one that had it.

hardtailjohn

Basically like the system they used on steam era train axels.
I'm so far behind, I think I'm ahead!

dblair

do  the bearings have a thrust ?
old Appomattox Iron Works circle mill.

JoeBrittany21

The bearings dont have a thrust flange on them but I am going to put shim washers between the wheel and the bearing block to keep things tight and equal distance from the gear. I was setting up the carriage today to get an idea of how far out of rack it may be I was surprised to find out a 22' 6" log cradle 32" wide was only out of rack by 3/16" I am not even going to bother with that. Instead I will align everything perpendicular off the trolley gear.

 
You can see the bolt holes vary in how far off perpendicular to the track gear. The problem is if they were off on the same side of the perpendicular then racking the frame might work but they are not. They vary side to side so I will just have to drill new holes for the bearing block to square up the axles.

  

 

  
Some of the holes are off much more than the pics I posted.
I also want to say thanks for the help and comments, they are keeping me thinking. :P

bandmiller2

Your right on the endplay matter Joe,you don't want any.What do you have for rails for the wheels to ride on.? Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

JoeBrittany21

The tracks are like the miniature railroad all iron and heavy. Enough for a set 48' long.

  

 

I tore the rachet set works apart today. I have been lucky all the parts I have encountered are fixable which will keep me going. Worn is one thing wore out or unrepairable is another. Thank God they used all this heavy iron, I believe that is what kept it together.


  

  

 


  

JoeBrittany21

Started putting the trolley wheels and bearing blocks together today.
I drilled new holes for the bearing blocks that placed the axles at right angles to the gear along the trolley as well as spaced them more evenly along the 22'6" length of the trolley.


 
The bolts are 1/2" and there was play between them and the 1/2" holes a wood bit makes. There was also play in between the bolts and the bearing block bolt holes. I fixed that play by driving 2" long 3/8 iron pipe nipples into the wood after drilling them to the bolt diameter. This will keep the blocks from shifting, as well as tightening up the side play of the bolts.


 
In the next picture you can see how the pipe nipples filled the gaps in the bearing blocks.


 
In the next picture you can see the gear along the trolley in the background. The face of the wheels are all going to be 5 inches from the outside face of the gear. You can also see how the oiled oakum is packed into the oil cup.


 
All of the side play has been eliminated by bushings either between the wheel and the bearing block or the axle and the wheel. That 5 inches to each wheel face I believe is critical to make the trolley run straight.


 


 
View of the entire trolley.


 

dblair

 

  looks great . usually the carriage will have only one guide wheel with flanges on both sides of the wheel . on yours it's necessary to have both rails aligned in order for the carriage to stay straight , different and may be harder to keep in line .
old Appomattox Iron Works circle mill.

JoeBrittany21

DBlair,

Thanks for sharing that. I was thinking about it last night and your right I have to check that second wheel to make sure my shim work in not changing that dimension. I could probably weld a flange on some of the wheels to make them guide wheels. Is that type of wheel on every axle on that side of the track?

Because of the rain today, I put the set works back together. I had it bolted to the husk temporarily just to work on it.


 

dblair

all the wheels on the side away from the blade are like that . the side opposite are like this

  the wood block fore and aft of the wheel scrape the track of dust
old Appomattox Iron Works circle mill.

JoeBrittany21

Ok, thanks for the info. Gives me some food for thought.

JoeBrittany21

Ok guys, here is an update on my progress. The bearings, axles and wheels are all in place and everything measures good and seems tight. I flipped the trolleys over and leveled them and aligned them.


 

I was wondering what the proper name for the frame that the dogs slide on?

Anyway, I installed them perpendicular to the trolley. I am not to keen on how the dog carrier frames (thats what I will call them until someone corrects me) stick out past the trolley frame. I have to do some calculating on whether the blade will hit them as set.
I located the dog carriers at 3', 10',  and 17' from the front end of the trolley. I did that figuring I could cut 8' to 16' logs with the first two dogs and 18' and over on the three dogs up to 24'.


 


 


 
I checked the dog's relationship to the frame they run in. It is 90 degrees within a 64th in. Good I believe.


 
But I discovered the dog carrier frames need to be shimmed on the blade side to make the dogs perpendicular to the saw blade.

Please feel free to comment. I am open to constructive criticism. My wife makes sure I get a good dose every now and then.

beenthere

Quotewas wondering what the proper name for the frame that the dogs slide on?


I believe the knees carry the dogs and the knees slide on the headblocks.

QuoteBut I discovered the dog carrier frames need to be shimmed on the blade side to make the dogs perpendicular to the saw blade.

Seems the "dog carrier" being the knees, that the knees should be perpendicular to the sliding surface of the headblock. Then the saw is adjusted in relation to the tracks the carriage rides on.

Much is spelled out in the book that Stan Lunstrum published that will help you out.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/misc/circsaw.pdf

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

JoeBrittany21

Originally when I bought this sawmill, I purchased it from an ad that said "Gear Drive Frick for sale" I am new to the sawmill game and I figured it would be a fun rebuild. I found the words Canton Saw Co. on one of the dog frames. So I assumed it was manufactured by the Canton Saw Co.

After much research thanks to a member "AlWOL" and Vintage Machinery. I finally found the exact husk design on a patent dated 1885.
http://www.datamp.org/patents/displayPatent.php?id=20300

So now I believe the mill is an  E. M. Birdsall "New Birdsall Company" which made sawmills around 1885 to 1920 approximately. Which makes the mill even older than I first thought.


 

The patent description and the design drawings are an exact depiction of my mill.
Also, after careful inspection on the pinion drive gear off the mandrel shaft, I believe the cover was put on by someone other than the manufacturer, if you notice in the picture there is diamond plate welded into a box.


  

 

Also other repairs were made using diamond plate for mounting brackets.
Someone who seemed to understand mills made the repairs, it may have been someone on this forum.



JoeBrittany21

Knees and headblocks got it. Thank You "BeenThere"

dblair

the knees on mine are about 3/8 inches from the blade . this seemed closer than I thought it had to be but by the time I got the husk mated to rails and the drum drive connected this is what it had to be .
old Appomattox Iron Works circle mill.

beenthere

And you are meaning the "knees" being the verticals that hold the dogs can advance that close using the setworks?

Or maybe meaning the ends of each headblock base that the knees advance upon?

Still seems a bit close, either way. But I'd think a stop to keep the knees from advancing that close would be a good idea. If you can hold a 1" dogboard, that seems it should be close enough.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ron Wenrich

The headblock on my mill is about 1/2" from the saw.  That seems to be about the right distance on most mills.  I have clipped my headblocks a few times when I had problems with something pushing the saw.  It usually happens when you saw logs with shake and a sliver gets between your saw and the off bearer.  It usually means that you'll be changing teeth.  If your carriage would happen to go off the track, you can really nail the saw.  I saw the results of that at a mill where a piece of bark fell onto the tracks and the carriage jumped towards the saw right before it hit.  Only 2 teeth were left on the saw.

The knees on these mills don't have any type of limits to them.  On the automatic mills, you can have a limit switch that will prevent the knees from traveling too far.  It is possible to make a mechanical one that will limit the knee travel.

Knees can come beyond the ends of the headblocks.  That is how they are mounted.  But, from an operational standpoint, your actual limits come from how far you can advance without hitting the dogs.  You will hit these much sooner and more often than hitting the headblock.  Most times it will be just clipping the dog.  But, I know of guys that have hit the dog really hard. 

Its best to know how small you can saw without much danger of hitting the saw.  That would be with the dogs all the way to the back of the holder and holding a board.  If you go too thin, you have the problem of the dog board falling off the carriage while in the cut - major problem.  Many handmills can go down to a 1" board.  For safety, I'm most comfortable going down to a 6/4 or 2" dogboard.  I don't saw that small very often, as my sawing patterns take me down to a pallet cant.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

bandmiller2

Ron covered it,my mill also has about 1/2" between the knees and saw that gives the last board something to sit on.Old handset mills were short on safety and failsafe systems, relying on the skill of the sawyer.You never get over being nervous when you make that last cut to the dogboard.Whats a spoiler is a laser line right where the saw will go. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

dblair

Ron covered it  , mines three eights , and one inch is as close as I saw .
old Appomattox Iron Works circle mill.

JoeBrittany21

Hi Guys, I have one of my Grandsons visiting me for a couple weeks and those ice cream breaks really cut into the mill renovation. Of course he is really good at wire brushing bolts and running for tools. ;D

My clearance from the saw to the headblocks looks like it will end of being 3/8", I cringe at the thought of that.

I was working on the husk today. Took off the board splitter and checked it out. Greased it up and set it up directly in line with the back of the saw blade on the arbor side.


 

I took the mandrel bearing block caps off for the first time and I was happy that the bearings were in ok shape. The one closest to the saw blade had about 7/1000ths clearance. I think that is not bad. I used plastigage to measure the clearance.


 

The bearing on the other end of the shaft was not as good looking so I am considering my options on this one.


 

The mandrel shaft has some lines on it very faint but no signs of really having been hot. So far so good.


 
I am just going to go from one end of the husk to the other and check everything out and make repairs or adjustments as needed.


Don_Papenburg

You can get babbet in wire form like solder .  then you can use a welding torch tip to build up the bearing without removing all the old babbet then it can be machined to shape . Clean the crud off the old bearing  and heat enough to puddle in the new babbet into the old  . 
Frick saw mill  '58   820 John Deere power. Diamond T trucks

JoeBrittany21

Took the mandrel out of the husk so I can check the shaft for straightness. Mic says the shaft is 2-5/8" diameter.


 
  Also gives me a chance to check out the teeth on the friction drive shaft gear. A little greasy but that is good. No overly worn or broken teeth from the visual so far.

  


 

dblair

I can see this mill is going to be most perfectly in tolerance old mill that has ever been put back together . that's great , I wish I had that kind of patience .
old Appomattox Iron Works circle mill.

JoeBrittany21

Dblair
Quote from: dblair on June 26, 2012, 09:24:12 AM
I can see this mill is going to be most perfectly in tolerance old mill that has ever been put back together . that's great , I wish I had that kind of patience .

I used to restore old chevy trucks for a hobby. Probably did around 8 of them. My goal was always to take it to a good inspection station and have the truck need nothing. Also having 6 kids may have helped develop patience.

dblair

old Appomattox Iron Works circle mill.

JoeBrittany21

An update on my Birdsall SawMill:
Since the bearing on the power side of the mandrel shaft was rough  I decided to take the babbitt out and I will  rebabbitt this entire bearing.


 
I also took the drive shaft to the friction drive plate apart and to my delight the bearings are good.


  

On to the question. I have a couple pictures here of the saw guide, I understand about the hardwood dowels that are suppose to guide the saw blade but not touch the blade which I assume this means at the static RPM without a load.
My question is what type of load does this guide get on it, because as you can see in the picture the giude is in bad shape and I am going to make one out of steel and since the one in the picture is cast I was wondering if I have to make it so heavy. Maybe some of you guys have pics of a homemade one that I could get a look at.


 
The broken piece at the dowel cups is not worth fixing I am thinking.


 


 

ALWOL

   I don't have a pic of any home-made guides, but I can get some of OEM guides. They need to be fairly sturdy. It seems as though every time I saw a very knotty log one of the the knots will bang against the guide.

     Alan
There's a big difference between staying busy and making money.

NMFP

The guide on the saw I bought was in rough shape too but I have determined in my life, some people and I mean alot tend to want to lead their saw with the guides instead of leading the arbor.  If you do that, you put additional stress on the steel and if you hit a big knot and the blade dodges harder, there is an enormous amount of tension against the cast or steel guide.

I dont know that I have seen many guides that have not been rewelded at some point.

ALWOL

   I have not seen many that have not been welded on either.

   Here is a pic of the one on my small portable mill. It is fully adjustable, and I really like it a lot.


 
   There may be some more pics of other guides in my gallery.

    Alan
There's a big difference between staying busy and making money.

JoeBrittany21

Ok so then lead the blade into the log 1/8 inch say. Build the guide with substantial ability to resist the blade being driven into the guide as it may deflect off of a knot. Sounds good if I got that right.

JoeBrittany21

Alan,
On the picture is there a dowel also on the log side of the blade?

ALWOL

   Yes, there is a piece of guide material on both sides of the blade. Those are hardwood, but the graphite/composite material is far superior to wood. If you build your guide from scratch, make sure it will accept a readily available guide material.

        Alan
There's a big difference between staying busy and making money.

steamsawyer

Hey Joe,

I don't see why you couldn't fab something out of steel. Maybe 1/2 or 3/4 inch plate or flat bar. Make it adjustable for both sides of the blade and put a socket for your hardwood pins made out of 1" ID pipe or square tubing with set bolts in from the side.

Al I like the one on your mill... Adjustable, individually, on either side of the blade.

You should never try to lead the saw with the guides. You need to set the guide pins with the blade running at the hammered speed and leave 3/32 to 1/8 inch clearance between the pin and the blade. With the blade at rest it is likely to be touching guide on the log side of the blade. The main function of the guide is to keep the blade from running over into the bunks.

Alan... #2
J. A. Vance circular sawmill, 52" blade, powered by a 70 HP 9 1/2 x 10 James Leffel portable steam engine.

Inside this tired old mans body is just a little boy that wants to go out and play.

Great minds think alike.....  Does your butt itch too?

Alan Rudd
Steam Punk Extraordinaire.

b dukes

Somewhere on here before someone posted a pic of one made from a cable clevis., and there is one on eBay for sale.  Search Frick sawmill guide.

dblair

 

  you could make one out of a shackle (clevis) but it would be a large one maybe 1.5 pin . it would be easier to fab one out of pipe I think . here's my guide .  it 's a little hard to see
old Appomattox Iron Works circle mill.

JoeBrittany21

Guys, Thanks for the different ideas, I bought some nickel welding rods the other day for welding cast iron so I might take a shot on repairing the old one. $27 bucks for 10 welding rods at TSC ouch!!!

I still haven't poured the bearing for the mandrel. Now I found out that the bearing blocks don't line up. The one on the power side is 3/16" higher than it should be. Look closely at the picture across the block. It would not leave any space for the babbitt. So I decided to shim the bearing block on the saw side 3/16" to give me what I need for babbitt.

 

Apparently these blocks were made to carry oil and the center section of the bearing allowed the shaft to get an oil bath. However, when I took the babbitt out of the lower bearing block it was filled with grease. I know that wasnt right. Mainly because there was no way to get the grease in and there was an old oil cup on the side of the upper bearing block that when filled allowed oil to flow into and fill the lower block. I believe when it was put together in the past sometime that the grease was packed in then. But I believe I would rather have to grease it than try to contain the oil. What do you guys think?


 
So My idea is to totally fill the lower bearing block with babbitt and then put grooves in the bearing surface to have grease reach the entire shaft.
Checkout my idea for holding the babbit from going into the oil resevoir.


 
Rebuilding a sawmill is challenging to say the least but still having fun. :P ???  :D

ALWOL

   If you don't have any luck welding that guide, you might try brazing it, and if that doesn't work, pm me and I will send you one of my surplus guides.
   I have seen many babbited sawmill mandrels changed from oil to grease, so it must work, but I still think that a drip type oiler on each bearing box would be the best. Your boxes were designed for oil. Those voids in the lower housing should be packed with felt to wick the oil to the shaft, and the upper housing should also have a place to pack a felt wick to hold the oil to the shaft.

       Alan
There's a big difference between staying busy and making money.

grweldon

Filling the bearing entirely with babbit and grooving a grease path will work very well and be much easier to maintain, but...  I usually like to design seals into the shaft housing if using grease so as to keep it contained.  When using an oil cup reservoir, the oil is continuously seeping on the shaft, escaping out of the ends of the housing over time until the oil cup is empty.  I know nothing about circle mills so I don't know how high the temps will be on that housing.  If it's high enough to melt the grease, without seals it will run out, possibly causing a "dry" running shaft.

Also, when you try to repair that cast iron guide with the nickel rod, preheat the cast iron with a torch until it's dull red to dull orange to try to prevent cracking when the welded area cools.  Do not quench the part with anything after welding, allow it to air cool... don't even put a fan on it.  It will allow the stresses to be distributed as best as possible...
My three favorite documents: The Holy Bible, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States.

dblair

I didn't see it in the pictures , so what does the saw mandrel do for thrust ?
old Appomattox Iron Works circle mill.

JoeBrittany21

Quote from: ALWOL on July 02, 2012, 09:22:01 AM
   If you don't have any luck welding that guide, you might try brazing it, and if that doesn't work, pm me and I will send you one of my surplus guides.

   Al, thank you this is very generous offer. I am going to try to fix this thing, I have some good ideas I just have to see how they pan out but I will post pics when I finish it then you can tell me what you think.

Quote from: dblair on July 02, 2012, 05:10:51 PM
I didn't see it in the pictures , so what does the saw mandrel do for thrust ?
There are collars on the mandrel shaft between the bearing blocks that controls the thrust.


 

I poured the babbit today and installed grooves and grease fittings in the  bearing caps. I also drilled the bottom of the bearing and put grooves in it to be able to still use the oil bath if I choose. Thinking on this Yet.




 


 



 
The good thing is after it was all done I had .003 clearance and with it greased can spin the mandrel by hand.

Quote from: grweldon on July 02, 2012, 10:46:20 AM
Filling the bearing entirely with babbit and grooving a grease path will work very well and be much easier to maintain, but...  I usually like to design seals into the shaft housing if using grease so as to keep it contained.  When using an oil cup reservoir, the oil is continuously seeping on the shaft, escaping out of the ends of the housing over time until the oil cup is empty.  I know nothing about circle mills so I don't know how high the temps will be on that housing.  If it's high enough to melt the grease, without seals it will run out, possibly causing a "dry" running shaft.

Also, when you try to repair that cast iron guide with the nickel rod, preheat the cast iron with a torch until it's dull red to dull orange to try to prevent cracking when the welded area cools.  Do not quench the part with anything after welding, allow it to air cool... don't even put a fan on it.  It will allow the stresses to be distributed as best as possible...


grweldon, this is excellent advice I was trying to research welding cast and I am glad you verified the heating of the cast first. I wasnt sure of that. Thanks for that.

As far as the heat on the greased mandrel bearings. I have a chipper with a 2" shaft and I just grease that thing once a day and its been good to go. So I am hoping for the same here. I know what you are saying about the seals but I could not make that happen with what I have.

ALWOL

   Yeah, I would be fixing that old guide if it were mine also. I think it will work out OK.
There's a big difference between staying busy and making money.

JoeBrittany21

Today I worked on the drive shaft for the friction plate. One bearing was good and one was bad so I rebabbitted the bad one and put a grease fitting into the bearing cap. One of the drive shaft caps had an old greaser on it I kinda liked the looks of it so I am going to use that one to grease the front part of the shaft as it needs. The other greaser was missing.

 


  

 

JoeBrittany21

Worked on the friction drive today. In the picture you can see the friction drive plate along with one of the paper friction drive wheels. 

 
These paper drive wheels are in good shape. But the lever that engages them to the friction drive plate was pretty wobbly and did not give good leverage to make contact with the plate.

  The yoke around the shaft that holds the forward and reverse friction wheels needed a new bushing in it. I installed that with more babbit and another grease fitting bolted it back together it has very little play now. Just enough play for the shaft to spin.
I also welded this eccentric to the lever and bolted a plate for it to press on to the husk this makes the friction wheels engage the drive plate better. The pictures shows the eccentric tacked in place.

 
This picture shows both the paper drive wheels. 

 
This entire shaft with the paper wheels swings forward and backward just enough to make contract and release from the drive plate. The long operators lever moves right and left for forward and reverse as well as front and back to engage and disengage. Kind of an old fashion wobble stick for you heavy equipment operators.
The small gear runs the larger gear which turns the shaft with another gear on the opposite side that moves the log carriage.

  In this next picture you can see two bolts that a wishbone attaches to to keep the gears meshed as they swing towards the friction plate. The wishbone needs to be replaced because it was allowing the gears to separate slightly.
The end of the shaft with the larger gear also swings kind of like a pendulum, so the gears have to stay together or they would break teeth off.

  

  Well there you have it, except for paint the husk is now finished. By next problem will be to get a 4 belt pulley that fits the mandrel for the saw.

JoeBrittany21

Well it certainly has been hot out the past 2 weeks. I was busy doing other stuff and had to let the mill rest.
I made a new link that links the friction drive idler shaft to the carriage drive shaft. This keeps the gears from separating when engaging the friction wheels to the drive plate.


 

I also made a new saw guide.  It uses oak dowels. The dowels are tight in the holders because of a spur on the inside. There are caps on the outer sider of the dowel holders that can adjust the distance the dowels move. The whole assembly also adjusts for bigger blades and the distance from the husk.


 

bandmiller2

Joe, was looking at the bearing with the pocket  in the middle, that may have originally been for a ring oiler.Its a narrow brass ring larger than the shaft that walks its way around when the shaft turns and pumps oil up around the bearing.I've watched them on old electric motors and they really pump oil and do a good job  lubing the bearing.The hardest thing pouring bearings is locating the shaft in the right place.I would melt out all the babbit drill and tap for two 10-24 long screws at 8 and 4 o'clock.With the two screws you and move the shaft any way, pour then back them out and put a shorty in for a plug. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

JoeBrittany21

Hey Frank,

I have a pretty good grip on how geometry works and your right about trying to center the shaft in the bearing. The way I do it is to rest the shaft on v blocks and then use a feeler guage to center the shaft where I want it. The good thing about all the bearings on the sawmill is that they are almost a 1/4" thick and that gives plenty of room to manuever around.

Can't be positive on why the pocket was in the middle but I do know that the lower bearing block was hollow and looked liked it should have held oil. But I cant tell what was original because I have nothing to look at. So I just am trying to go with what will work. I would love to see the original mill just to know what the original intent was.

There is no doubt that grease will let the shaft ride nice in the bearing. I should be putting high temp grease in it. The good outcome is that the shaft can be turned by hand because it sits true in the bearings.

I noticed the shaft at the collar where the saw blade attaches had two steps in it. One for the blade and another for the collar.  The step in the shaft that holds the exterior collar was broken off, so I cut out two washers from some steel to fit the collar step and the bolt to keep the collar aligned. The pins for the blade were worn so I replaced them as well.


 


 


 


 


 
 

Thanks for the comment.

Holmes

Great job and a very interesting thread. I have thoroughly enjoyed following your adventure. :)
Think like a farmer.

JoeBrittany21

Hey Holmes,

Thanks, it would have been a nightmare if not for this forum. I was a college professor, I love visual affects. :D
I need all the encouragement I can find. The big job is yet to come "designing and building the foundation for it".

Take care.

cab037

This has been a great thread going over some of the steps involved in bringing one of these old mills back to life.  I recently purchased a circle mill that uses rack and pinion to move the carriage.  Do you have any pictures of your final assembled mill?  Mine is coming in pieces and it'll be a fun puzzle to work out.

beenthere

cab037
Welcome to the Forestry Forum. Look forward to hearing more about your new purchase and eventual assembly. smiley_thumbsup
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

bandmiller2

We haven't herd from Joe in a long time hope he's OK. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

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