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Timber poaching in BC parks

Started by rmack, May 18, 2012, 09:34:33 PM

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rmack

the foundation for a successful life is being able to recognize what to least expect the most... (anonymous)

Welder Bob
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redbeard

somee thieves did the same thing in Washington last year in the olyimpic national park by port angeles. They fell a giant old growth and cut bolts for shakes. Rangers caught a break and staked the scene out and busted them. They are doing hard time in prison I think they got 15 years. I do know a bundle of grade A heavy shakes goes for 50.00 a bundle. 300.00 a square
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colinofthewoods

I have a lot of info on the case.  It is near where I have had several legal salvage areas and spent quite a bit of time working.

I tried to report it to parks canada on March.28 2011, but never heard anything back.
I now have a really good description of the truck that was hauling it away ( I think ). Just not sure who to tell,  or who would listen

the enforcement for this stuff is very poor.  With the info i have I am pretty sure I could catch them in a week or two.

I got checked by the rcmp a few months ago with a load of cedar on my truck,  they didn't even really understand how to read my salvage licence , nor did they understand my site map.  They didn't even take my name or anything. And this was in the same area the tree was poached from.

The tree stood cut like this for over a month before parks "discovered it " and had it fallen.

It is not nearly the biggest cedar in the park , but a nice tree and it looked like it had very straight grain. It was also right beside the parking lot which was the biggest factor in why this tree was poached.

If the police or whoever, had hung a $100 trail camera in the parking lot by the tree , they would have all the info they needed to make an arrest,  instead it slowly disappeared chunk by chunk.

At least now I can visit the park again,  I haven't been there since I discovered the tree for fear of being wrongly connected to it.


I added pics of the tree to my gallery,  just not sure how to add them to the post.



 



 

shelbycharger400

im still trying to figure out how someone got a pulp truck in their or a large truck with a crane to pick it up.   even pieces at 18 inches long,  weights A LOT!

i remember a 44 in maple and it was solid.  cut a chunk off at 16 inches, had to 1/4 that to pick it up

haywire woodlot

Looks like like it sat back on the back on the backcut and they left it standing like that. Did it end up blowing over, or did someone come back and wedge/jack it over? Shelby, the weight of a cedar block would be much lighter than maple and they would definitely be quartered too! Maybe Colin can describe his cedar salvage operation?
Dave

colinofthewoods

It stayed standing cut like this for over one month,  I was checking on it periodically.

Apparently parks had a faller come in to tip it over.  I belive he would have used more wedges and got it over.  I don't think it had sat back on the wedges,  the tree was not very tall so you do not get very much leverage with the wedges,  especially since poaches only had a few small wedges,  instead of half a dozen big louies or a big high lift wedge.

Cedars like this fracture when they hit the ground, and are very easy to split.  I did not track the progress of the removal of the tree.  I wanted to, but getting caught beside the log  with my crane truck and work gear was too much risk.  I doubt anyone would belive I was only there to look.

I would guess the tree was removed in slabs, 6 to 20 feet in length.  After it hit the parking lot half the tree was smashed to bits.

My salvage operation consists of

1. finding old growth windfalls, or post harvest logging salvage ( you would be amazed at what kind of wood is left roadside in the logging blocks ).

2. Mapping the area with a gps, then making a map on the computer ( using imap bc )

3. Submitting a licence to cut application to the ministry of forests

4. Waiting .... the holder of the tree farm licence gets first  refusal of the wood and they take there sweet time thinking about.

5. Then when you get approved you pay a bit of stumpage ( cheap, a buck or two a cubic metre )

6. then you have a specific amount of time to remove the wood before the licence ends.

I mostly sell split cedar fence rails, this spring I bought a small push mill so now some of the really nice stuff I mill up.

This time of year I can't keep up with my orders so instead of salvaging I am purchasing wood from a mill.

This log poaching really upsets me,  If the parks had auctioned the log , they could have got some serious funding for the park,  and it would have prevented who ever cut the tree from profiting from it.   Some guys I know have a commercial cedar mill and buy high grade stuff like this,  they pay around $250  + a cubic metre .

The biggest known tree in Canada is near there,  2nd biggest known red cedar in the world. Luckily it is tucked away and far from the road.


 

snowshoveler

Just 2 words..."inside job"
Going to hide now.
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colinofthewoods

I had a nice chat this morning with a guy from the wilderness committee ( the group that  brought this matter to the media ).  I gave him all the info I had as well as the pictures. They are offering a $5000 reward for evidence that leads to a conviction.  Maybe I should go play detective.  I think I will give the rcmp a call monday and pass along the info too.   

http://wildernesscommittee.org/

haywire woodlot

Good for you, for coming forward with your information. I wonder what sort penalty there is for a crime like this. Theft is pretty brazen in the woods these days, when we were cutting firewood last year there was a guy witha 5 ton crane truck pulling out cedar logs on the landing below us, the Island Timberlands guy came out with the RCMP and made him unload them and leave the block. Next weekend he was back again, picking up the same wood! Theft from equipment is bad too, someone I know saw all the ecm stuff and turbos stolen off of a new harvester, thats pretty big job, unless someone has the right tools and know how.

Thanks for the information on your salvage operation, I had heard that appling for salvage rights is a rather arduous procedure! Are you getting out log length material or blocks and rails split on the spot?
Dave

Al_Smith

 :D My daughter the midget used to work for the state of Ohio as the lead coordinater for power line construction from an ecoligical stand point .

It seems on one clearance cut this big brawny logger got the idea to help himself to some prime oaks about 200 feet either side of the cut .My daughter stood as tall as her 5 foot height would allow ,looked this size 54 jacket ,size 5 hat guy in the eye and informed him about timber piracy in the state of Ohio .He cut a deal with the farmer before any law suit was finalized because she had the papers filed already ahead of time .

Since then though although she liked the job she no longer works for the state nor about half of her department .Thanks in full to this bozo of a governer that some how got elected who with any luck will be a one term deal .Rin Tin Tin would have been a better choice but he didn't run .

mikeb1079

interesting post colin thanks.  it's good to know that honest woodsmen are out there.  hopefully you'll be rewarded (i know that's not your motivation) for your honesty.   :)
that's why you must play di drum...to blow the big guys mind!
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colinofthewoods

Haywire ,    The licence to cut application process is actually not vey difficult at all.  For all of the the flack the government gets,  I have had nothing but extrememly positive dealings with the ministry of forests.  When i started out for my first application,  I basically e-mailed them and said " I found a few windfalls I want,  how do I salvage them legally" , and they walked me through the process.  Since then I have learned quite a bit about the mapping process and working with a gps .

Your story about timberlands is intersting.  Because Island timberlands is technically a private land owner ,  any log theft is no different than regular theft. It is the same laws as if someone stole your quad, as if someone steals a couple cubes of cedar.  That day you witnessed, they must have decided to not pursue theft charges with the rcmp.  Poaching cedar on crown land ( including a tfl ) is a very different story,there is a whole new set of charges invloved.  Poaching cedar on park land brings a different set of charges as well.

I have been removing my salvage material in log form. I used to split my rails in the bush , but my last 2 licences came with excemptions that prohibitted the manufacturing of material on-site.  I never asked exactly what that meant.  Salvaging shake blocks is an entirely different situation, I have not come across a place where you could do it with out a helicopter.  I used to do it up island, fly wood with helicopters ect.  different set of rules.  I actually have a b-train load of shake blocks sitting in the bush from 5 years ago. The price at the mill dropped and it hasn't been worth flying them out.  That was a lot of wood to split for nothing !

If you have found a couple of logs,  it doesn't matter how few ,  legally salvaging them is easier than you think,  you may just have to wait a bit to do it.  Don't forget that the ministry of forest is there to work for you. That is what your taxes pay for.

I don't know what potential penalty this poaching could bring, unfortunately I fear it is nothing even close to what Redbeard talked about.

rmack

I worked cutting shake blocks on the north end of the Island 30 years ago, first time I ever heard of somebody taking green wood for shakes.

has the price of shingles come up that much? how many shingle mills are there nearby?
the foundation for a successful life is being able to recognize what to least expect the most... (anonymous)

Welder Bob
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haywire woodlot

Thanks for all of the great information, Colin. I've checked out the ministry of forests website, found the application form too! I'll have to do a little cruising in the future and try this out!
Dave

colinofthewoods

Hey Haywire,  there is an online provincial mapping system called imap bc - google it.  If you can teach yourself how to use it,  you can add gps points to it and it will show you what is crown land and what is private land.  This will help you figure out what is up for grabs or not. If the wood you want is inside a tfl, then it is up for grabs but the tfl licencee ( western or teal around us )has first refusal of the wood.  When you go to imap bc.  go to the" layers" tab and add the cadastral fabric layer, as well as existing tree farm licence. I belive they are under administrative boundaries. 

rmack-  there are not very many shingle mills near by but there are a few.  Since I did not monitor how the wood was taken ,  I am not even sure if it was taken for shakes. People like to assume that because of how it was in the past. You could have taken 12' long slabs from this tree and milled them into vertical egde grain clears and sold them for around $2500 a thousand.  That would get you more than if you cut it into shake blocks.  5 years ago I sold a cord of blocks for about $1400 I think,   I sold a cord 2 years ago for $500.  After that I stopped caring about blocks.   Green wood is used for shakes quite a bit.  Most shake mills buy logging truck loads of logs to process as well as using bush wood like you used split.  I have had buddies that split shake blocks from trees that were fallen just for that purpose.

Where about did you used to split ?  I own 35 acres up in Quatsino sound and logged all over the place up there too.  Port Mcneil is still a real hub of shaking.

rmack

QuoteWhere about did you used to split ?  I own 35 acres up in Quatsino sound and logged all over the place up there too.  Port Mcneil is still a real hub of shaking.

I worked north west of Holberg, toward Cape Scott, and north of Coal Harbour. same idea as what you are doing, salvage licenses. I was just a grunt with a saw, couple wedges, and a splitting mall. The Holberg job was a helicopter show, Coal Harbour we just dragged it to the road.

In retrospect, I enjoyed the work quite a bit... too old for that kind of fun now though. :D
the foundation for a successful life is being able to recognize what to least expect the most... (anonymous)

Welder Bob
2012 LT40HDSD35 Yanmar Diesel Triple
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sawguy21

This the kind of discussion I was looking for when I joined FF. I worked for a now defunct heli logging operator out of Prince George, we did some work on the south coast with an S-61 that were not economical for the big twin screws but no cedar.
I have to wonder what poachers planned to do with that much wood. A small shake mill or specialty wood worker might take the choice pieces at the right price no questions asked but that is a lot of work with a high risk. Were they doing it to get a rise out of the tree huggers? If so it worked.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

colinofthewoods

Hey Rmack ! If you enjoyed the work quite a bit, then I tip my hat to you.  Maybe not a lot of people on here know that is rains darn near 20' a year up there and the underbrush is over 10' deep most of the time.


Quote from: sawguy21 on May 21, 2012, 06:13:02 PM
. A small shake mill or specialty wood worker might take the choice pieces at the right price no questions asked but that is a lot of work with a high risk. Were they doing it to get a rise out of the tree huggers? If so it worked.

Unfortunately , the way the system works is as far as I know,  for a place to legally buy timber all you need to show is a valid timber mark.  I was talking to a forestry officer on friday about this.  She said that timber mark theft is the biggest source of theft for them.  Basically what happens is someone sells a bunch of wood to a mill under a stolen timbermark ( lets say for example from an old guy who needed it to sell a load of pulp wood a few years ago ). The mill takes the wood, and no one suspects anything until 2 years later when the old guy gets a bill from revenue canada for the taxes he owes on all of the wood that the thief sold, and he is left scratching his head saying "what wood".   


My guess is that this was not a slight against the tree huggers. The only reason that the tree got fell is because it was a high quality stick within 50' of a road.




rmack

QuoteMaybe not a lot of people on here know that is rains darn near 20' a year up there and the underbrush is over 10' deep most of the time.

:) that was my introduction to wool pants. I don't live in a rainy climate anymore, but still wear them in the wintertime.
the foundation for a successful life is being able to recognize what to least expect the most... (anonymous)

Welder Bob
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Brucer

Quote from: colinofthewoods on May 22, 2012, 01:21:48 AM

Unfortunately , the way the system works is as far as I know,  for a place to legally buy timber all you need to show is a valid timber mark...

Well, it's not quite that simple.

Each load is supposed to be accompanied by a load slip issued by the place of origin. The slip shows the timbermark, the point of origin, and the destination. The load is then supposed to be scaled at the receiving end.

I run a scale site as part of my operation and I don't buy stuff from anybody that happens by with some marked logs. Once in a while someone will bring some logs they want milled up for them. If there's no timbermark, or no paperwork, (or alternatively a timbermark exemption), then I won't touch the load. Even when they have the paperwork, I take the time to check it out. It's not to hard to spot when something's a little suspicious.
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colinofthewoods

Thanks for the clarification Brucer,  for the shake blocks I have sold off my property I did not have a load slip,  however when I applied for the timber mark I had to include information for where the destination of the wood was.  All of my salvage stuff is excempt from scaling.

Have you had many suspicious loads come by you place ?  I am wondering how common it is.

Brucer

I had one guy selling me logs off his property. He had a timber mark and I gave him a book of load slips that he could fill out. One day one of his neighbours came by and warned me that the guy was actually cutting the trees off crown land. Funny thing, though. I'd gone to look at the logs when they were freshly cut and still lying beside the stumps. Definitely on the owner's property. It turns out that there's been bad blood between the two of them for years.

They one suspicious incident was when I was contract sawing for a timberframer. He had been buying pre-scaled logs so he didn't have to worry about any paperwork. He made arrangements to buy a couple of pre-scaled loads from a logger he hadn't worked with before. The logs were late, the boss was on holidays, and suddenly the logs showed up. The logger said they weren't scaled yet but we could get the scaler from the commercial mill down the road to scale them. The acting boss called the commercial mill and was told, "No way. That's not the proper procedure and I won't touch them." I figured something was suspicious so I told the acting boss he should call Forestry and plead ignorance and ask them what he was supposed to do. Good move. They were very nice, very sympathetic (to us), taught us about the paperwork, and fined the logger big time.

That's when I learned all about the rules.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

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