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WM LT28 and Peterson WPF 10

Started by Qweaver, May 16, 2012, 08:34:45 AM

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Qweaver

These 2 saws make a great team!  Yesterday I needed to make 8x8 bunks and battens out of the same log.  I cut 2x10s and 8x8s on the WPF.  Took the 2x10s to the WM and made the battens. There's a lot of kerf loss making battens on the WPF.  I'm getting some large Sycamore that I'll quatersaw on the WPF.  QS is much easier on the WPF
I'm getting the hang of cutting with the WPF now.  There is a lot of mental math in getting the WPF saw set right. 
The clutch is still not working on the WPF and I've just bought new steel wheels to replace the plastic ones supplied that keep popping off of the rims.  These are frustrations that I should not have on a new saw that cost $25,000.  But I love the way it cuts.  BTW it cost $70 to retip the blade and I supplied the carbide.  A bit high I think but it was done locally and I did not have shipping costs.  I will make up my own jig for retipping.  Does anyone know of a USA source for the carbide?
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

JohnM

May sound odd, but I'd like to have those problems.  ;) ;D :D

JM
Lucas 830 w/ slabber; Kubota L3710; Wallenstein logging winch; Split-fire splitter; Stihl 036; Jonsered 2150

54Dutchman

What is your WPF quarter sawing set-up and normal pattern?  There has been a lot of examples given but you are the 1st one to claim that the WPF is easier. smiley_huh

dutchman

Are you looking for a preformed rough carbide, or a finished
to spec insert.
There are many different grades of carbide.

sigidi

Quote from: Qweaver on May 16, 2012, 08:34:45 AM
These 2 saws make a great team! 
It's something I've heard Warren Lucas (from Lucas Mill) say a few times, he believes swing mill and a band mill would work well to compliment each other.

QuoteQS is much easier on the WPF
or BS is easy on the Lucas (or Peterson) it's just a matter of doing deeper verticle cuts and thiner horizontal cuts as compared to backsawn when you do shallow verticle cuts and wider horizontal cuts.

QuoteThere is a lot of mental math in getting the WPF saw set right.
Not sure why? but being used to my Lucas, the maths involved with a bandsaw seems challenging to me - having to always account for the kerf in the measurements, on the lucas you wind the indicator to the measurement you want, simple. The scael already accoutns for the kerf.

QuoteThe clutch is still not working on the WPF and I've just bought new steel wheels to replace the plastic ones supplied that keep popping off of the rims.  These are frustrations that I should not have on a new saw that cost $25,000.
I agree 1000% and am surprised something as crucial as the clutch isnt working :( Qweaver what 'wheel's' are you referring to my initial thought are the wheels the frame rolls on along the tracks, if thats the case,you need to change them back to plastic right away, steel wheels in this situation will chew the heck out of your rails and over the course of a year or so it will mean your saw just wont operate true with the rails anymore. If not these wheels please disregard  ;)

QuoteBut I love the way it cuts.
and thats the way it should be mate 8)

QuoteBTW it cost $70 to retip the blade and I supplied the carbide.
Down here depending on where I go for my re-tip, it can be as little as $55 for a full set of tips removed, replaced and ground to specs (but this guy is over 4 hours drive from me now) to $99 for the same service about 20 mins drive, I supply the stuffed blade, they return a 'brand new' one lol
Always willing to help - Allan

terrifictimbersllc

Twice BH Payne has charged me about $35 for re-tipping a 6 tooth blade for the 1030 WPF.  And they have good UPS pricing. Return postage and shipping both times was $49.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

scsmith42

Quote from: 54Dutchman on May 16, 2012, 12:56:39 PM
What is your WPF quarter sawing set-up and normal pattern?  There has been a lot of examples given but you are the 1st one to claim that the WPF is easier. smiley_huh

Dutchman, there is absolutely no question that quartersawing on a WPF is much easier than on a band mill.  It is probably at least 50% faster, and has the benefit of allowing you to QS very large diameter logs.

You can't compare the patterns between a swingblade and a bandmill.  Swing mill patterns vary depending upon the log and what you're trying to produce.

For quartersawing, you will typically divide the log into thirds.  The top third is milled vertically, you will produce about 20% flat,40% rift and 40% quarter from the top third (based upon the NHLA specs for QS lumber).

The middle third is typically milled horizontally, and you will produce 100% QS from it.  The bottom third is milled the same way as the top third.

Extremely large logs can be handled differently in order to produce more QS.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

sigidi

Got a layout picture for QS pattern on a Lucas (swingmill) somewhere, but gotta go slicing, try and get it up here later ;)
Always willing to help - Allan

sigidi

As mentioned - possible cut patterns for QS on a Lucas, (or Peterson too)



Always willing to help - Allan

thecfarm

Sounds like you have quite the team there now!!
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Qweaver

My QS pattern is about like the first drawing posted by Sigidi (Alan ?) with a few more verticals on the top and bottom.  Anyway you do it there is going to be some rift but that still looks good.  When I first started sawing with the WPF deep cuts were giving me trouble.  I've learned to control the speed better and it's working better.  I don't like taking two passes to get a 10" horz. cut but in really hard wood it does work better.  It's just time consuming. 
I have not sharpened the blade yet...I've checked it daily and it seems to be very sharp.  I may just give it a light sharpening and see if it makes a difference.
Quinton
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

sigidi

Quinton, I typically get around 1.5-2 cubic metres of log sawn for 1 sharpen down here, so a day on the mill is sharpen around lunch and at end of the day. Having said this our stuff tends to be much harder than your stuff over there.

On the 10" horizontals, it ends up being much faster to do 2x5" bites versus 1 10" bite, but again that may be cos I'm cutting stuff around 1250kg/m3 or 6.5lb/bft (424 bft to the cubic metre, is that right?)

What is goin on with you clutch Quinton? and what plastic wheels where you talkin about? have your issues been fixed for you mate?
Always willing to help - Allan

Qweaver

Allan, when the saw is brought back to idle the clutch should disengage and the blade should stop with the engine at idle.  It did not work at first and after I removed the shield and tapped on the clutch with a hammer it worked for a day or two.  It has not worked for the past few days and I'm not happy with having to break it loose on a regular basis.  The factory has made suggestions that did not work.  The jocky wheels used to move the carriage off of the rails are made of plastic and the tires pop off of the rims.  I bought steel wheels that solved the problem...but why should I have to do that on a new saw.  Other owners are having the same problems.

Quinton
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

Qweaver

I have a red oak that is 34" inside the bark small end and pretty straight.  I'm figuring at least 32" usable dia for this layout.  This is my plan for cutting with the WPF to get as much QS as possible.   I'm setting the saw to get 1" thick after the cut. We'll see how it comes out.  I may take a 4x4 out of the center.



 
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

scsmith42

Quinton, I would definitely box the heart on that oak, otherwise the juvenile wood that is in your boards will cause them to crook.

Your pattern should work.  You might want to consider double cutting on the left side of the log and yielding wider QS boards.

Keep in mind that QS oak shrinks about 2X more in thickness than FS.  If you mill at 1" green, you will be around 7/8" after drying (12% shrinkage in thickness for QSO).  You'll be lucky to net 5/8" S2S boards from a 1" green QSO board, so you might want to consider milling at 1-1/8" or 1-3/16" to yield 3/4" S2S boards post drying.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Qweaver

OK Scott,
I'll adjust to finish the cut  at 1.125" by making my cuts at 1.375".  When I sawed the oak on my WM that I used to make my cabinets, I sawed 4/4 both flat and QS and they both planed out to 3/4" easily.  I'd rather keep the width at or below 8" to minimize cupping.
Thanks for the input.  I'm going to the saw now.  I like having a drawing of the cuts on hand just to keep my head straight as I cut.

Quinton
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

sigidi

Quote from: Qweaver on May 19, 2012, 09:21:11 PM
Allan, when the saw is brought back to idle the clutch should disengage and the blade should stop with the engine at idle. 
with the model 6 Lucas I had, when bringing to idle the sawblade stopped, on my model 10 there is a brake on the clutch to stop the blade on idle - maybe Peterson need a brake?
QuoteThe jocky wheels used to move the carriage off of the rails are made of plastic and the tires pop off of the rims. I bought steel wheels that solved the problem...but why should I have to do that on a new saw.  Other owners are having the same problems.
a bit of a sour taste in your mouth I'd say Quinton, wouldn't be so bad if it was one of the early models you could 'understand' a bit, but stuff like that would have had a lot of feedback and time to sort out prior to now you'd think hey?

Quinton, my interest is picqued by the way your talkin about the measurements of boards...don't the guages on the mill have allowance for the kerf? so you just set it on 1" if you want a 1" board?

Scott, you cant just double cut one side of the log, well ok you could 'acutally' do it, but it wouldnt be good practice, best to take the double width board from the middle of the log to minimise the effect tension has on the board that wide - no point having nice wide figured bananas
Always willing to help - Allan

Qweaver

I setup to sharpen the blade on the WPF and more concerns.  I read the manual and it said that the sharpener should come pre-set.  Note how much I had to move the jig out of alignment to get the sharpener to line up with the saw tooth.  It is obvious that the tool is not ment to work this way.  I made it work but it's not right.  I can modify it to make it work right...but again...why should I have to?


 
BTW  I QS sawed a low quality oak just for practice and got almost all QS and some rift.
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

terrifictimbersllc

I had to do some shimming and adjusting of the grinder too, but not as much as in your picture.   Once things were adjusted,  it was clear that any handling of the grinder would probably knock things out of whack.  So I made a custom fitted case to tote the grinder around in. 


 


  


 
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

scsmith42

Quote from: sigidi on May 20, 2012, 05:13:57 PM
Quote from: Qweaver on May 19, 2012, 09:21:11 PM

Scott, you cant just double cut one side of the log, well ok you could 'acutally' do it, but it wouldnt be good practice, best to take the double width board from the middle of the log to minimise the effect tension has on the board that wide - no point having nice wide figured bananas

Sigidi, remember we're talking quartersawing....    I double cut QS boards all the time, and they stay flat and straight as long as there is not any pith (juvenile) wood at the edge of the board.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Okrafarmer

On my recent trip to Yap, Micronesia, my missionary / sawyer friend and I went to the aid of some "wealthy" locals who had bought the only Peterson mill on the island, second-hand, and were having some trouble with it. They were milling a very hard tropical hardwood known locally as "Biuich" (don't read anything into that, the locals don't) that supposedly has a hardness of around 3,000 +/-.  They were wondering why the saw wouldn't cut straight. They demonstrated it for us, and they were powering it through the wood and it was rising up on the horizontal cut, exposing the grooves from the vertical cuts, and simply not cutting straight. This was a Peterson ATS, the basic model, 8".

We first checked the frame rails, but that wasn't the problem, nor were the guide wheels, nor was the engine frame or blade position out of line. Now we checked the obvious-- and found that not only were the blade teeth as dull as bowling balls, they had been sharpened at the wrong angle. Crestfallen, the used mill's new owners admitted they had not tried sharpening it.  :-[ They brought out the sharpener, which looked like the one you showed, and we tried to figure out how to use it. My friend owns and operates a 6" Lucas, and was astonished at how difficult the Peterson's grinder was to operate. It took the two of us to both hold the jig firmly in place and actually grind the teeth. We had to take quite a bit off to get it down to the proper (90*) angle, but when we were done, it worked 1,000 times better. We were both impressed that the Peterson had managed to grind its way through such hard wood for so long with such a dull blade. They had quite a little pile of lumber already on hand to show for their futile efforts, but we left them sheepishly whipping their way through the log like happy banshees. We promised them that they would have much better results if they touched up their blade once a day.  :-\ Too bad about the difficult to use grinder, though.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Qweaver

Actually, the grinder worked really well and easily once I got it to match the cutter angle.

Quinton
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

Okrafarmer

Quote from: Qweaver on May 21, 2012, 12:44:23 AM
Actually, the grinder worked really well and easily once I got it to match the cutter angle.

Quinton

Good. Maybe we weren't doing it right.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Ianab

Hard wood like that, especially if it's dirty, you probably want to be touching the teeth several times a day. Should only need a light touch then to keep it razor sharp and really humming.

The grinder should be easy to use as long as you are doing it right. If the teeth were badly worn or chipped it can take a bit of time to get a good edge again. But it shouldn't be difficult.

My mill is an old one, so the grinder mount is different, but it's easy enough to use. I don't imagine they made the new ones any more difficult...

But you are right that the blade is the first place to look when things aren't working right. Last time we were milling I noticed the saw wasn't cutting "right", so first thing I think is "needs a sharpen"... Stopped and set up the grinder, and found there was only one cutter left on the blade  :D Yeah, that slowed things up a bit...

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

sigidi

Quinton, it really is a shame, you're having to do so much "extra" stuff to a brand new mill, I'd be very upset, to say the least. Its acceptable to do a bit of tinkering with a used mill, but that is dissapointing in the extreme.

I am very careful with the sharpener on the lucas, gently putting it back in the box etc. to ensure it doesnt get knocked out of adjustment, I probably handle it too gently, but hey I dont ahve to adjust it that way.

Scott, doesnt make a difference down here if BS or QS, takin a large wide board from one side of the log will ensure it pulls. Only way to keep a wide board straight down here needs to come from the middle of the log face - another reason I take a bit of extra time to line the log up the way i do.

Okrafarmer, I have to admit - not using a peterson, but thinking how the heck does that grinder even do a repeatable job on the teeth each time it is used, but the lads say it does :) Actually talkin bout peterson's has reminded me I gotta make a call to a fella down here who has a peterson, but hands off all his mobile jobs to me. 8) ;)
Always willing to help - Allan

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