Under powered circle rigs

[bandmiller2]

Was killing a little time watching sawmills on U-tube, almost all the older mills shown were under powered.If you have to slowdown to a creep or stop half way through a cut to let the engine catch up,boy, your underpowered.Its no wonder the quality of circle sawn lumber is in question,and folks have trouble with their saws.It takes real power to pull a saw through a big oak log.What Robert Rourke african hunter said "use enough gun" Frank C.

[apm]

Hi Frank,

Funny, but that argument can go both ways. There's a little Belsaw on that popular auction site, right now, with a 350 hp diesel power unit. I was gettin' a chuckle over that one probably about the same time you were watching you tube.

Greg

[Al_Smith]

Well some of those itsy little Belsaws they ran off of 20 HP tractors . They'd cut lumber but they weren't no speed demons .

There's a local yokel that had some rig where the arbor tilted some how .Left a pie shaped log .The thing had a rope  start VW engine about 30 HP give or take .Actually for a circle mill the lumber looked pretty good .

He used the little rig on small logs and did the large oaks on a diesel powered old Frick that must have came over on the Mayflower .

This guy had a pet Tom turkey that must have weighed 50 pounds .Attempted to "romance " the chickens ,ducks ,the cat .It made the mistake of taking "advantage" in a manner of speaking when the sawyers wife tripped in the yard once .Old Tom ended up in the oven over that one . :D

[thecfarm]

The guy just up the road tried some sort of circle mill with a small 10-20 hp motor,maybe. I was young than and my Father said no way that would work. Just like Al said,it could cut like a piece of pie. Mill got sold and they put a BIG motor on it. Could of been a detroit for all I know. We could see the back side of the motor sticking out as we drove by.

[dail_h]

The most underpowered mill I ever tried to saw on was a Belsaw with a 48 in saw . Old farmer it belonged to wanted me to use a '37 john deer b. Was pretty poor sawin ,, but got it done

[steamsawyer]

Was killing a little time watching sawmills on U-tube, almost all the older mills shown were under powered.If you have to slowdown to a creep or stop half way through a cut to let the engine catch up,boy, your underpowered.Its no wonder the quality of circle sawn lumber is in question,and folks have trouble with their saws.It takes real power to pull a saw through a big oak log.What Robert Rourke african hunter said "use enough gun" Frank C.

This is one of my favorite videos... I'd say they have plenty of power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8nyrP8bclI&feature=related

Actually, there are a number of clips of this mill and crew set up at different sites and they are all good.

Alan

[Ianab]

The advantage of steam is that you have a much better torque curve, as the revs drop the torque increases, unlike a gas engine. So they are harder to bog down. The revs drop, so the load decreases, but the torque increases, so you keep sawing. They also have plenty of inertia in the flywheel, and some reserve in the steam in the boiler. So you can see the engines in that clip really loading up and "chuffing" when the load comes on. But they can recover revs and steam while the mill is backing up and setting for the next cut.

So they can power more mill than a gas engine of the same horse power.

The other way to saw with less power is to run a blade with less teeth. Sure it cuts slower, but you have enough power to keep the cutters working properly, taking proper chips, and feeding normally.  That's how my mill can do an 8" cut with only 8hp. Only 4 cutters on the blade.  But that's 2hp per cutter, same ratio as 50 cutters and 100hp.  Naturally the 100 hp should be 12X faster assuming everything else is equal.

Ian

[bandmiller2]

Wow Alan twin screw, two engines on one mill,like I said it takes real power to get production.That sawyer is good but makes me nervous between the saw and the log,thats where you don't want a carriage feed that creeps,same with laying over the log to dog it.Frank C.

[SPD748]

I've read and been told that 2 to 4 hp per tooth is required to maintain speed, depending on bit width and the species being sawn. Is this accurate?

-lee

[ALWOL]

To much power on a circular saw is kinda like to much fun- there's no such thing!

[barbender]

I've watched a big circle mill out at Rollag, Mn, where they have a big threshing show. I don't know what make of mill it is, it had a very large main blade and a topping saw (I don't know if that is the correct term) and the sawyer rode on the carriage. They powered it with steam, and they were cutting massive cottonwood logs in the 5'-6' diameter range. Those guys were flying, the sawyer was good, it looked like he was taking a few G's on the gig back I'll have to get out there this summer, it's been a few years.

[dail_h]

that vid looks kinda like me sawin with the Belsaw  ;D ;D ;D ;D only similarity is they're both circle rigs. never have sawed with steam,, hope to fore cash in my chips tho

[steamsawyer]

that vid looks kinda like me sawin with the Belsaw  ;D ;D ;D ;D only similarity is they're both circle rigs. never have sawed with steam,, hope to fore cash in my chips tho

dail_h,


I plan to run this Sunday the 20th. Come on down and I'll give you a chance to pull the stick.

I have a new idler on the drive belt that I can't wait to try out. I have plenty of power but I have a belt slippage problem. The loose top side of the belt gets to flopping and loses traction on the arbor pulley, the new idler should take care of that.

Sawing with steam is indeed very different than any other power. With steam, as soon as you bring the log up and bump the blade the governor will open and the torque builds. Essentially the torque stays the same from near stall speed to governed speed. It does not build up, but it does not drop off either. With an internal combustion engine, once you reach the point where the torque curve drops off more load will only rob speed and power. As with any mechanical governor the simple laws of physics won't allow the governor to bring any engine, under load, up to the original speed as before the load was applied. That is why you have to set your no load speed a little higher.  In the video you will notice that more load will make the steam engines bark louder but they are not bogging down and losing speed. Search "steam powered sawmill on Youtube, there's lots of them.

The first time I ever ran a steam engine on a sawmill it was my engine on a Frick mill with a 46" blade. The old 60 HP James Leffel would out pull the D8800 Cat engine on the same mill.

Alan

[Al_Smith]

I've seen Big Russel steamers pull with ease a mill that would bring a John Deere 830 right down to it's knees .

I also saw a big Case steamer pull an 8 inch belt into on a Baker fan  .

[bandmiller2]

Dail,cutting with electric is pretty much like cutting with recipricating steam only not so much fun.I have cut with a steam turbine they pull down like a gasoline engine and are not comparable to the recip. Frank C.

[dail_h]

tks for the invite alan, but fl is bit far for weekend excursion ,lol, but hope to get down there some time near future.
have sawed with electric a bunch frank,, is fun , but nothin special,,no exaust noise , lik 671
.

[jimparamedic]

more teeth means more power I have seen blades with 24 teeth and thoose blades do not run well with alot of power

[Don_Papenburg]

You could make a recording of a 6-71 and play that while sawing with the  e-motor
Maybe a good set of hi volume headphones so it will viberate the eardums better,more realistic?

[LOGDOG]

I wonder if that sawyer is still alive? All that crawling around with the exposed saws and such .... just a matter of time before a guy takes a face plant into the saw. I like that turner though. Very smooth. Lots of power on that saw. Seems to zip right through. Always enjoy watching these mills run. Makes my hair stand up when guys take chances though.

[61Scout80]

Hey guys...I am new to the forum but wanted to share my plans for my little saw mill!
I recently acquired an early 80's Belsaw M-14 (less the base) The mill has never been used or set up.  I have been doing a little picking for some steel for the base.  I plan to use an industrial Ford 300, with a Rockford PTO that runs on propane.  I got the power package fairly cheap...but before I spend a bunch of money to get it operational...am I going to have enough power and torque to run the mill.  I plan on setting the mill up in wetern Montana where I will use it to saw fir, pine, larch.  Any thoughts and advice would be appreciated!

[sandhills]

Welcome to the forum Scout, sorry I can't help with your question but I guarantee somebody here will be able to.

[bandmiller2]

Scout,You should have plenty of power running your Belsaw with the indy. Ford 300 their a rugged high torque engine,propane may get expensive.Welcome Frank C.

[bandmiller2]

The most dangerous setup for a circular mill is where the deck the sawyer is standing on is the same hight as the arbor,all it takes is snow,ice or a trip.Better to have the arbor 18" or so higher than your deck,and even better add a bar between you and the saw.I used  2" pipe,handy to mount a throttle and clipboard.Keep a piece of sticking handy to push stuff away from the saw,not your hands or feet.If the carriage is around knee hight makes it easier to turn and dog anyways.Keep your feed lever[johnson bar] back from the carriage so your knowwhere near in line with the saw when your cutting.Frank C.

[beenthere]

In the video it looked like a bystander watching at the end of the carriage track looking right down the saw cut line at the head saw. Knowing how things can get thrown off a head saw in that direction made it hard to feel comfortable where he was at.
Seems these saw demonstrations at historic sites can exhibit some rather careless behaviour. Two that I watched was where the sawyer would walk across the husk with the saw blade running. Made this crossing several times and finally I couldn't stand to watch any more. Didn't even have the arbor or husk covered with planking. Just stepped on the frame.
Another was a crowd that gathered to watch along the saw cut line. My mention to them that if they ever were in a sawmill and observed the holes in the shed siding about where they were standing, didn't seem to have any effect. Had to leave that area too.

[hardtailjohn]

Scout, I'm just a ways outside of Kalispell, with an M14...but it's got a Chrysler Industrial 6 on it. The guy I bought it from says he's sawn with it for 43 years and it did just fine in Doug Fir and Yellow Pine.
When you moving to this area? And just where?
John

[61Scout80]

Thanks for the help guys.  I realize the that propane is not ideal...but it is cheaper than gas or diesel....but that depends on consumption I guess?  I will be setting the mill up over the next two years as I prepare for my next phase of life.  I will make sure to take pictures of the project and post them.  The forum looks to be a great place to share common interests or afflictions...!

John, the property where I will set the mill up is in West Valley... west of Kalispell off Farm to Market.  Perhaps you could share some wisdom as I set the mill up!

[jimparamedic]

Propane can be converted to natural gas also propane does not go bad like gasoline or diesel. Good to see others using circular sawmills

[hardtailjohn]

Scout, not much wisdom here, but probably lots of advice!  :D   I do know a few people in West Valley. I was born here and spent most of my life in the area... other than 9 years over in NW WA.
When you're going to be over here, you'll have to pm me and we'll try to meet up!!
John

[61Scout80]

John, I do business in the valley every 4 to 6 weeks.  I plan to be in the area next weekend (Memorial Day)....I need to put a few fence posts in the ground and clean up the property.  I have a few more years in the career over here in Seattle...but intend to retire in Kalispell.

[hardtailjohn]

I sent you a PM.
John