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Patriot act

Started by isawlogs, February 26, 2004, 12:13:12 PM

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isawlogs

Question of the week....
What is your Patriot act , inquiring mind would like to learn a bit more  :P
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

johnjbc

The Patriot Act is a law that was passed after 9/11 to fight terrorism. It basically gives the government the right to put someone in jail without a trial or access to an attorney.
I was of the opinion that the constitution prevented things like that but who knows. :-[ :-[
LT40HDG24, Case VAC, Kubota L48, Case 580B, Cat 977H, Bobcat 773

Captain

The Patriot Act was passed soon after the trajedy of 9/11/01.  It gives law enforcement broader freedom of surveillance, such as wire taps and other covert types of monitoring suspected criminals.  The Patriot Act (I am still trying to understand why the name)  directly adresses some of the freedoms people in this country enjoy, provided by the bill of rights to our US Constitution.

Some would say the Patriot Act goes too far, some say that law enforcement (whom has been seeking such permission for decades) should have the freedoms allowed by the Patriot Act.

The poll results on the title page to the forum shows the split...I for one am undecided.

Captain

L. Wakefield

   'Quis custodiet ipsos custodios?'

   'Who shall guard those same guardians?'

   Along the same lines as the saying- 'power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely'.

   The world is dangerous, and as they say, mean people suck. Terrorism is a mega version of that. But giving up freedoms for supposed safety can be a question of out of the frying pan and into a far worse fire. There are predators at all levels of society, and the govenrment is no exception.  

   I say, keep your freedom. Guard it vigilantly.

   Didn't the Marines say something about that?  lw
L. Wakefield, owner and operator of the beastly truck Heretik, that refuses to stay between the lines when parking

SasquatchMan

Called it the "patriot act" because if you called it what it really is, everyone would sh*t.
Senior Member?  That's funny.

isawlogs

Ok Here they call it  the war measures act .... It was used here in 1970 to fight the FLQ
 I can see why there would be debate if they did call it what it is
 I for one ,not being from the state, thought it had something to do with an anscestral law of somekind  go figure
  Well thanks for letting me  know a little bit more ...before going off to sleep....
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

Ron Wenrich

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

OneWithWood

Old Ben was a pretty smart guy.
Thanks for the quote Ron.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

Corley5

I don't like it >:(  I agree with old Ben too ;)
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

AtLast

GREAT quote Ron....also agree with  'Quis custodiet ipsos custodios?....I dont wanna start a political debate...BUT....the Bush family makes me VERY VERY scared. My sister was in the Army for years and worked ASA,...the things that go on that some of us dont see and most of us dont want to believe is most unsettling. Take a look at the manifest of the flights that did the 911 disaster. Tellme how many " foriegn" names you see on it. Also have ANY of you see ANY pictures from 1 of the MOST secured building in the country that has constant cameras running ( Pentagon) have any of you seen any pictures of the alledged plane that went into it? seems to me there would be alot of photos and footage. Also for a plane that size to hit where it did have any of you seen any evidence on the grassy area of a planne skidding in . That grassy area is totally untouched. Now Im not trying to start some conspiricy but like I said. The Bush family scares me....ALOT

rebocardo

> Also for a plane that size to hit where it did have any of
> you seen any evidence on the grassy area of a
> planne skidding in

It was flown directly by a pilot into the building at 100s of mph, at what looks like to me from the size hole punched into the building and where, at least 35 degrees. Why would there be skid marks?

jwood

BULLS**T    LETS ELECT A PRESIDENT THAT WILL TURN OUR MILITARY OVER TO THE UN ..LETS ELECT ONE THAT WILL LET FRANCE , GERMANY OR EVEN CANADA TELL US  WHAT TO DO AND WHEN TO DO IT  ..I DONT KNOW WHAT FREEDOMS ANY OF YOU HAVE  LOST OVER  THE PATRIOT ACT  BUT I HAVEN'T LOST A *DanG ONE AND IF THERES A RAG HEAD OR ARAB THATS LOST ANYTHING TOUGH..WHAT WILL WE SAY NEXT TIME SOMETHING HAPPENS..MY FREEDOMS AT ALL COSTS  :'(

ADfields

As I see it, it's to far reaching and that Ben Franklin was a sharp man indeed!!!   I don't know what freedom I have lost and no one can but any is to much.   I am less fearful of terrorists then what the FBI may do to me ten years down the road because I checked out a book on reloading ammo and looked up on the web how to use black powder to split a WRC log so I could mill it.   Thats the stuff that living hells are made of.   I still vote Bush as the other guys are just flat nuts and I like most of what the man stands for.   I don't ever agree 100% with any one and if I did I would think they were not telling me there true feelings but what they think I want to hear. ;)   I don't think we must like every thing some one is up to for them to be a good or even great president for us, even my wife gets my goat from time to time.
Andy

EZ

I figure they will catch bin ladin in Oct. Then that will tell all.
EZ

woodrat

I'm with Ben, and the libertarians. What supposedly makes us so great are the freedoms that we have, that people all over the world envy, and many risk their lives to sneak in and enjoy. Why do we value it so little that we would trade it for a false sense of security? What is so conservative about giving expanded powers to a government that has proven itself so many times to be untrustworthy? Ben and the founders limited the powers of the federal govt for good reason. And here we are talking of rolling back those limitations, because our president has declared endless war on any who would oppose our ambitions. Have we caught Osama yet? We did finally bag Saddam who in the eighties was seen shaking hands with Don Rumsfeld and getting the key to the city of Detroit, among other perks and favors. Did we act against him when he gassed his own people? No, but then in 2003 the fact that he gassed his own people is brought out as one of the reasons to go to war against him. Oh and lets not forget that Osama used to be one of our pals as well, back when the Russians were getting mired down in Afghanistan.

One little bit of the Patriot Act: the government gets the right to look at anyone's library records, with no cause or warrant, and if the librarian tells you later that your records have been examined, then SHE can be arrested and charged with a crime. Is that something that free people need? I just don't buy the theory that our freedom is a weakness that we need to do away with in order to be "safe". I don't trust the current administration at all, and in fact, a couple of days after 9/11, there were adminstration people on the TV telling us that they would NOT be telling us the truth about future developments in the new "war", because we just didn't need to know the truth and weren't really able to understand the truth even if they were to tell us. That is something that free people need? A government that lies to them for its own secret reasons? And isn't ANYONE suspicious that this whole Patriot Act, voted on without even having been READ by our representatives, was all written up and ready to go just days after 9/11? Why is it called the Patriot Act? well, that seems obvious to me. That way you can label anyone who opposes or questions it, "unpatriotic". What representative would ever vote "no" on an act that calls itself "patriot"?

Before anyone out there calls me a spineless Democrat, no, I am not a Democrat, or spineless. I did not vote for Gore and thought that he would also be a crappy president, and I'm not impressed by any of the nominees this time around either. And its not like I can't imagine needing to go to war to defend the country either. Its just that what we did with Iraq was not a defensive war, it was a preemptive invasion of a country who used to be our ally and had not attacked or threatened us. wasn't that one of the things that got Germany in trouble at nuremberg? preemptive invasion? Its not a policy that I can support, sorry. And I don't think that as wealthy and powerful as we are, we can afford to invade, conquer and change the regime of any country whose leaders harbor ill will against our leaders.

I doubt that anyone really believes we would be at war in the middle east if there was no oil there. We have stood by many, many times and tolerated brutal dictators, ethnic "cleansing" and atrocities of all kinds all over the world and never marched to war to put a stop to those acts, to "liberate" those being oppressed. Instead we have often supported the brutal dictators if it suited our needs. We were trying to do business with the Taliban in the months leading up to 9/11, but they kept demanding gold plated limosines and the like (why not? the Saudis have oil to sell too and look how nice THEY live..) and then the Taliban went off and struck deals with the Russians and the French instead of US.


 My opinions might not be too popular here, but hey, that's what living in a free country is all about, right? The right to assert unpopular opinions without going to jail or being spied on...lets hope we can hang on to those ideals that made us the most powerful country on the planet.

Loving my country, but fearing and mistrusting my government,

Mark
1996 Woodmizer LT40HD
Yanmar 3220D and MF 253
Wallenstein FX 65 logging winch
Husky 61, 272XP, 372XP, 346XP, 353
Stihl 036, 046 with Lewis Winch
78 Chevy C30 dump truck, 80 Ford F350 4x4
35 ton firewood splitter
Eastonmade 22-28 splitter and conveyor
and ...lots of other junk...

Fla._Deadheader

  There's a rumor going around right now, today, that Bin Laden was captured in Afghanistan, quite a while back?????

  Sure would be a coincidence if he turns up around Sept.-Oct. as EZ stated???
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Steve

Woodrat:

You said it so much better than I could have, thanks, and you have my support.
What bothers me the most in these political discussions is that disagreement with the current administrations or its policies is seen as beeing unpatriotic.
Personally that is largely what moves me to disagree as I hate to see the direction this country it taking.
We are a macho, chest thumping, TV driven, materialistic culture. We need to see ourselves as part of this bigger world. Just because we can and have the money to do  what we want doesn't make it right.



Steve
Hawaiian Hardwoods Direct
www.curlykoa.com

SasquatchMan

jwood, you're all backwards.  My granddads both served in WWII, and I would too, if an evil army was on the march.  But when we restrict our travel, close our airports, search our children's luggage, and arrest whomever whenever... well, the terrorists have won.

If we're not willing to die defending our rights, rather than just cave in and live in fear, checking identity papers etc, then we don't deserve our freedom.

It's not so silly to claim that you'd rather die on a plane filled with bombs than be stopped for 3 hours in the airport and have your rectum checked for c4 and detonators.

JMHO
Senior Member?  That's funny.

Corley5

How lond had we really had Saddam in custody before we told the rest of the world? ???
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Buzz-sawyer



Woodrat this is a reply to your post, my answers follow your quotes..Don

" What supposedly makes us so great are the freedoms that we have, that people all over the world envy, and many risk their lives to sneak in and enjoy. Why do we value it so little that we would trade it for a false sense of security? What is so conservative about giving expanded powers to a government that has proven itself so many times to be untrustworthy?"
 
Well," Supposedly" despite the inevitable corruption that comes with Government....the greatest nation in history....the United States, is great because of the kind of people that founded, died and suffered to develope it....and they are still the finest , bravest and kindest people on the face of the earth!
 
 
 "And here we are talking of rolling back those limitations, because our president has declared endless war on any who would oppose our ambitions. "
 
If we do not oppose those who are against our ambitions...then we will cease to exist as a nation....if you do not stand up for something then you stand for nothing.....
 
 
 Osama used to be one of our pals as well, back when the Russians were getting mired down in Afghanistan.  
 
It is overly simplistic to say he was our pal...in fact it has been a fairly effective policy to go to trouble spots and train the people of the region to fight arm and defend themselves against tyrany....HOW DOES THAT MAKE US WRONG >>> do you infer all our nations intent and policy is in some way evil?
  
 
'One little bit of the Patriot Act: the government gets the right to look at anyone's library records, with no cause or warrant,
'
I am not so nieve to believe the N.S.A doesnt do ANYTHING it wants as well as the C.I.A.....do you believe that this is the Slippery slop that leads to our ultimate demise...to become a totalitarian state?
 
 
 
 "I don't trust the current administration at all, and in fact, a couple of days after 9/11, there were adminstration people on the TV telling us that they would NOT be telling us the truth about future developments in the new "war", because we just didn't need to know the truth and weren't really able to understand the truth even if they were to tell us. That is something that free people need?"
 
 
 
 I am disgusted that govenment will violate any part of our constitutional liberties.....do you think this is something NEW...At no time in our history has this NOT happened
 
 
 
And isn't ANYONE suspicious that this whole Patriot Act, voted on without even having been READ by our representatives, was all written up and ready to go just days after 9/11? Why is it called the Patriot Act? well, that seems obvious to me. That way you can label anyone who opposes or questions it, "unpatriotic". What representative would ever vote "no" on an act that calls itself "patriot"?  
 
Have you ever looked at the INCREDIBLE rstrictions and intrusive steps the Federal government took during WW2?
Harsh and strick control of daily life.....in order to protect in the BIG PICTURE the very freedoms that were temporarily taken.....I would NOT have enjoyed it but wouldnt enjoy speaking japanese german either....
  
Before anyone out there calls me a spineless Democrat,
 
 
No one cqalled you that ....in our system and style of Government the only people I call spineless are Middle of the roaders who offer defamatory, critical and subversive opinions without even the slightest wisp of a word of A BETTER WAY or a means of GETTING THERE
 
." Its just that what we did with Iraq was not a defensive war, it was a preemptive invasion of a country who used to be our ally and had not attacked or threatened us. wasn't that one of the things that got Germany in trouble at nuremberg? preemptive invasion? Its not a policy that I can support, sorry. And I don't think that as wealthy and powerful as we are, we can afford to invade, conquer and change the regime of any country whose leaders harbor ill will against our leaders. "
 
I suppose with the logic you are espousing that if you new a guy had the means and motive as well as oppertunity to do something horrific (say kidnap and rape) that you would not only refuse to do pre emptive action you would criticise those who stopped the aggressor?
  
I doubt that anyone really believes we would be at war in the middle east if there was no oil there. We have stood by many, many times and tolerated brutal dictators, ethnic "cleansing" and atrocities of all kinds all over the world and never marched to war to put a stop to those acts, to "liberate" those being oppressed.  
 
Finally,  
I see no logical argument against allying with those GREY dictators or like wise in latter putting an end to them....world politics are not a matter of black and white, rather making the difficult and morally challenging decissions of the "Lesser evil"
What is wrong with going to war to protect our way of life? For oil, water or food?
plenty of precedent in world and biblical history
Don
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

ADfields

QuoteI doubt that anyone really believes we would be at war in the middle east if there was no oil there.
Mark

Now I hear this all the time so lets think on it some without what the party's have ranted on it.  

1-The guy was very bad and we all believe that right?

2-The guy would have been happy to do any horrific thing to us that he was able to, do we all believe that?

Now there are other bad men in the world that fit #1 and #2 so why do we pick on him, right?   Well yes it's the oil but it's not that we want cheep oil.   So far we are around 100 billion in the hole and have received around 100 grand in oil that we also paid Iraq for.   So if it's the oil thats the 3rd piece of this puzzle then why is that so?   Answer, the oil made him a much greater threat than all the other guys that hates us!!! :P   The man had huge bucks to buy bad stuff and pitch it at us in so many ways we could never hope to keep up with all he could be up to and that is something we could not stand for!   The other bad men around the world are broke and that makes them very little real thereat to us.   That is why we did what we did!   Yes the Dem's are right it's about oil but they are wrong on the why, it's not about greed.   They know that but it plays well for them so they keep pounding at it.
Andy

Stan

I'd like to go back to the government described in the plain language of the Constitution, with the goobermint's nose outa my business, and it's hand outa my pocket. I don't mind payin' for protection, but don't like payin' for lazy, or deliberatly ignorant folks fun and games.
I may have been born on a turnip truck, but I didn't just fall off.

etat

Excerpts from the origional

 THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION:

Article. V.
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.


Clause 2: The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

Section. 4.
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.
__________________________________________________
Clause 1: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Clause 2: To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

Clause 3: To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

Clause 4: To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

Clause 5: To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

Clause 6: To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

Clause 7: To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

Clause 8: To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

Clause 9: To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

Clause 10: To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

Clause 11: To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

Clause 12: To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

Clause 13: To provide and maintain a Navy;

Clause 14: To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

Clause 15: To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

Clause 16: To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

Clause 17: To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, byCession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

Clause 18: To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

___________________________________________________


Clause 2: The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it

__________________________________________________

Stan, maybe it's not quite that simple, never has been.
What is amazing, the brilliance and foresight of the folks who drafted it, and got it approved and signed.


http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html[
Old Age and Treachery will outperform Youth and Inexperence. The thing is, getting older is starting to be painful.

woodrat


Woodrat this is a reply to your post, my answers follow your quotes..Don
<
Thanks Don, my responses are under the "<".
  
 
Well," Supposedly" despite the inevitable corruption that comes with Government....the greatest nation in history....the United States, is great because of the kind of people that founded, died and suffered to develope it....and they are still the finest , bravest and kindest people on the face of the earth!  
<
That is something I just don't buy-that Americans are some special breed of homo sapiens, kinder, braver and just all around better than any other kind of humans on earth. And what makes us so special? the fact that our souls happened to be born into bodies located in what is called the USofA? Or at least into bodies that would get lucky enough to legally immigrate here, because I doubt that you're talking about illegal aliens here.  There are kind and brave and very fine and upstanding people in every country on the globe, and there are mean, stingy, cruel and greedy humans spread  across America as well.  I always wince when I see the "proud to be an American" bumper stickers. Don't people remember that PRIDE is one of the seven  Deadly sins? Wasn't there some literary reference about pride coming before a great fall? In religious and philosophical traditions the world over, Humility is generally considered a virtue and a strength, Pride a weakness and a sin.
 
 
 "And here we are talking of rolling back those limitations, because our president has declared endless war on any who would oppose our ambitions. "  
 
If we do not oppose those who are against our ambitions...then we will cease to exist as a nation....if you do not stand up for something then you stand for nothing.....
<
That doesn't justify any particular course of action. I don't believe that we were in imminent danger of disappearing as a nation if we did not go to immediate war against Iraq. And the Endless War Against All Who Would Resist is not the only realistic way to oppose those who are against us.

Relating back to my comment above, I don't think that we as Americans are so much wiser and better than all the other humans that a handful of our wealthiest individuals and corporations have the right to run the world, that our will and our lifestyle are so undeniably and purely superior to all others that we have a right to impose our way of life or our will wherever we please, by military invasion if necessary, and that any who would fight back are "evil" "bad guys" and "terrorists". And you know what? I don't think that thinking that way makes me an America-hater, a traitor, or unpatriotic.
 
 
 Osama used to be one of our pals as well, back when the Russians were getting mired down in Afghanistan.  
 
It is overly simplistic to say he was our pal...in fact it has been a fairly effective policy to go to trouble spots and train the people of the region to fight arm and defend themselves against tyrany....HOW DOES THAT MAKE US WRONG >>> do you infer all our nations intent and policy is in some way evil?  
<
No  I didn't say that, although I think that siding with , or supporting evil because it is financially or otherwise convenient is itself, evil. And speaking of fighting and resisting tyranny, maybe the citizens of
Iraq who are still fighting against our troops over there see themselves as justifyably resisting the invasion and destruction of their country. Not that there aren't now plenty of freelance jihadis who have joined the fray from all over the place, but there are undoubtedly some oridinary citizens and regular soldiers involved with violent resistance to our presence over there. And if someone were to invade and occupy America, then you can bet that ordinary Americans would resist with violence for as long as necessary or possible. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, and vice versa. And sometimes those distinctions can change overnight, turning your freedom fighter into a terrorist just like that.
  
 
'One little bit of the Patriot Act: the government gets the right to look at anyone's library records, with no cause or warrant,  
'  
I am not so nieve to believe the N.S.A doesnt do ANYTHING it wants as well as the C.I.A.....do you believe that this is the Slippery slop that leads to our ultimate demise...to become a totalitarian state?  
>
So, if the NSA and CIA already do anything they want, and they still didn't manage to prevent (or even imagine, if you listen to some of the excuses) 9/11, then what makes anyone think that giving them MORE power and money will fix the problem? I believe we have been on the slippery slope towards some kind of totalitarian state for many years now, although in the last few, I think we have slipped pretty far, pretty fast. 
 
 
 "I don't trust the current administration at all, and in fact, a couple of days after 9/11, there were adminstration people on the TV telling us that they would NOT be telling us the truth about future developments in the new "war", because we just didn't need to know the truth and weren't really able to understand the truth even if they were to tell us. That is something that free people need?"  
   
 I am disgusted that govenment will violate any part of our constitutional liberties.....do you think this is something NEW...At no time in our history has this NOT happened  
>
That doesn't mean people shouldn't voice their opposition to it when it rears its ugly head.  It doesn't mean that a lie is not a lie, and it doesn't mean that it is not wrong. And no, I don't think that this is something new.  

 

Have you ever looked at the INCREDIBLE rstrictions and intrusive steps the Federal government took during WW2?  
Harsh and strick control of daily life.....in order to protect in the BIG PICTURE the very freedoms that were temporarily taken.....I would NOT have enjoyed it but wouldnt enjoy speaking japanese german either....   
>
Yes I have studied that period of history. Our government made some shameful decisions then. I live in Washington state, where many japanese americans had everything they owned stolen from them and they were put into detainment centers for the duration of the war. To be fighting under the banner of freedom and democarcy while a certain class of our own citizens are stripped of property and rights and put into camps... A real shining moment for American kindness, compassion and wisdom.
 
 
 
No one cqalled you that ....in our system and style of Government the only people I call spineless are Middle of the roaders who offer defamatory, critical and subversive opinions without even the slightest wisp of a word of A BETTER WAY or a means of GETTING THERE
>
The very idea that an opinion voiced in a supposedly free country could be considered "subversive" shows how far down that slope we've already slipped. Last I checked, I was still free to have "subversive" ideas, as long as I don't break the law while acting on them.

 
." Its just that what we did with Iraq was not a defensive war, it was a preemptive invasion of a country who used to be our ally and had not attacked or threatened us. wasn't that one of the things that got Germany in trouble at nuremberg? preemptive invasion? Its not a policy that I can support, sorry. And I don't think that as wealthy and powerful as we are, we can afford to invade, conquer and change the regime of any country whose leaders harbor ill will against our leaders. "  
 
I suppose with the logic you are espousing that if you new a guy had the means and motive as well as oppertunity to do something horrific (say kidnap and rape) that you would not only refuse to do pre emptive action you would criticise those who stopped the aggressor?  
>
Means and motive do not necessarily equal intent or action. And  so far I haven't heard of any verifiable evidence that saddam actually possessed the "means", as in WMD. And if you allow that kind of logic to dictate foreign policies around the world, then the whole world would have to immediately set about annihilating each other, because every nation everywhere has at least one enemy with the means and the motive to do horrific things to one another, and if it is suddenly acceptable to attack anyone that you feel threatened by, well I think we can just kiss it all goodbye. Except that I'm guessing that you would not extend that right of preemptive attack to any other nations besides our own, since we are the only ones fit to make those kind of judgement calls...?

  

What is wrong with going to war to protect our way of life? For oil, water or food?  
plenty of precedent in world and biblical history  
>
Exactly. So why doesn't our president just cut to the chase? We are at war to protect our priveleged lifestyle and standard of living, and since we are Americans, we're better than everyone else and have a right to take what we want from whoever won't give it to us when we demand it.

Personally, since I think that oil will eventually run out anyway, and since we could have been working to wean ourselves from what we've known to be a finite resource for about 30 years, that it is a shameful and sad waste of human lives and potential to march to War without End over the last few puddles of the stuff. And that is coming from someone who drives over 35,000 miles/year and is totally dependent on cheap fossil fuels to keep my household economy going.


Cheers,

Mark
1996 Woodmizer LT40HD
Yanmar 3220D and MF 253
Wallenstein FX 65 logging winch
Husky 61, 272XP, 372XP, 346XP, 353
Stihl 036, 046 with Lewis Winch
78 Chevy C30 dump truck, 80 Ford F350 4x4
35 ton firewood splitter
Eastonmade 22-28 splitter and conveyor
and ...lots of other junk...

Duane_Moore

 :o  Humm,  Ug,  white man put 1 trailor behind truck, do 70 mph.. Indian put 450 trailors behind choo choo. do 60 mph. white man not real smart. he no learn. but wait he will see. Duh---Duane ;)
village Idiot---   the cat fixers----  I am not a complete Idiot. some parts missing.

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