Log tension question

[Spalted]

I've got a question I'm hoping someone can help with. 

I'm getting close to buying a mill - my dilema is band or swing.  They both have some very useful and attractive abilities. I've never used a swing blade so I don't know how to handle log tension.
On a bandmill I understand rotating the the cant, but if you can't/don't rotate the log with a swingblade, what happens?

On another note; this is an awesome site (admittedly addicting) with lots of really great people and LOADS of talent.  Thanks one and all for the help you've given me without even knowing it - the archived posts are magic

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Spalted, Welcome to the FORESTRY FORUM!

Swing or Band.....ummmmm.   say_what

Are you sawing logs for personal use?
Do you plan to saw your logs and sell lumber?
Do you plan to saw others logs?

[customsawyer]

One of the things I would ask my self in your situation is what are your logs like and what type of lumber do you want to make. If you are cutting large logs and want to produce lumber less than 10" wide then I might look harder at the swing mill especially if most of it was going to be 2X lumber. If you are going to be cutting mostly 20" dia. and smaller logs and would like lumber wider than 10" then I would look harder at the band mill.
When I win the lottery I will have both. ;D

[laffs]

I dont know ive never seen a swing mill work. but I do know I like my hydraulics on my timber harvester. I think if i had a swing id want a slaber on it

[Magicman]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, Spalted.  Anyone that ends his first post with the word "magic" has got to be a good guy !!!.

I can't offer any suggestions about your sawmill type question other than you need to at least watch both types in operation. 

[cypresskayaksllc]

Id like to have both too. I mostly get less than 20" logs though.

[Ianab]

Welcome to the forum.

To answer your main question. The usual way to cope with tension with a smaller log / swingmill is to leave the right hand slab attached to the bottom slab, so it looks like a section of angle iron. This is very stiff of course, and tends to stay pretty straight even as you saw the "guts" out of the log. Even if the log does move a little, it's a small amount each board, and so they will usually still come out "in spec".

Which mill is better? That's the big question...

What are you planning to cut? From what size logs? Support equipment? Location?

What swing mills do best is cut dimension lumber from big logs, in remote places, often without even needing to move the log. They are of course VERY versatile machines, and can handle pretty much any sort of log you want to throw at them. You can saw grade hardwood, large beams, quartersaw, and with a slabber, cut REALLY big live edge slabs.
But with smaller logs they don't have any huge advantage over a band mill. If you are sawing up 12" logs, something like a LT15 will do it just as well, for less cash. Likewise if your logs are stacked up in a nice flat yard in front of your saw shed, the swingblade's portability is less important.

So to recommend a mill we need to know more about your planned operation. (and budget)  ;)

Ian

[Spalted]

Oooh, I was afraid you'd ask those questions.  Now I've got to fess up.

First, thanks for the welcome.  It's much appreciated.

I'll try to keep this mercifully short so here goes...

I've actually been sawing for just over 10 years.  I have a little portable bandmill - and I mean pick it up with one hand portable - that I would haul to the logs when i could get them. Did a pretty good job too and kept me in a lot of wood.

I was idiotically happy; I'd plainsaw everything and air dry it all. Didn't know "nuthin about nuthin" and life was good.  Then decided I was getting old enough to upgrade and discovered the Forestry Forum.  After that, found out just how much I didn't know and have been working to correct that since.  That's why I owe everyone a big thanks and always will.

But I digress...
I live in in the gap between suburban and rural.  There's lots of big trees, big to me anyway, from not being really logged for 100+ years.  Oaks (red, white, black, etc), cherry, ash, walnut, hickory, basswood, mulberry, B. locust, etc., are all pretty common.  The oaks avg about 38" to 43" dbh.  The cherries, hickory, walnut and   the rest are a little smaller at about 24" dbh.  There are some much bigger, but that's about the avg.

Problem is nobody around here really knows trees and a lot of these big bruisers are getting cut up for firewood or just burned on the spot.  I HATE that.  Really bothers me to see such beautiful wood going to waste.

At heart I'm still planning on cutting just for myself, but I've got to sell something from time to time to justify the saw per my better half.  At this point I have no plans on getting into the sawmill business - I'll leave that to you experts - but there might be a small specialty market for local wide boards and slabs that I can reach. And if there isn't it just means more WOOD FOR ME! 8)

More times than not the trees are in a place that prevents vehicles from even getting close and about half of those times winching won't even work. 

Here's my dilema:
The swingblade can be moved to the log but cuts narrow and has a slabber for really wide cuts (still gotta figure out how to move the slabs once cut).  The bandmill can't get to all the logs, but still cuts a nice wide board - and looks REALLY FUN!

I want the bandmill but I think I need the swingblade and I've got a nasty little wood sprite sitting on my shoulder whispering, "both".

I can decide which vehicle to buy in about 3 days, but can't seem to decide which sawmill to buy in 3 months  ??? so any and all opinions are very welcome.

By the way, apparently I lied about "mercifully short"

[Ianab]

I want the bandmill but I think I need the swingblade

I think that's your answer.

40" logs on even a fully automated portable band mill are maxing things out, IF you can get to the log. 40" logs make us swing blade sawyers smile  ;D

The ability to get the mill in to salvage large logs in places with limited access is one of the swingblade's big advantages. Heck you could hand carry it into some ones back yard if you had to, or across farmland on a little trailer behind a quad bike etc.

While we all like those big wide boards, most woodworking realistically ends up using pieces 8" or less wide. You can also "double cut" with a swingblade, and you can always get one full size live edge slab by rolling a 1/2 sawn log over and cutting from the other side. Yes it's a bit of work, but if you want a table top out of 50" walnut crotch it's worth a bit of effort. If large slabs are a priority, then a clip on slabber isn't all that expensive.

From the cost point of view, it's going to set you back more than a small manual band mill, but the band mill wont really do the job... A fully hydraulic mill that could, is going to cost maybe 2 X the swingblade, and not be particularly portable. If you have been doing some chainsaw milling you will have some idea how much logs weigh by now, and the issues of moving them without heavy machinery.

Yes the mills are manual, but in big logs the can probably outperform most any portable band mill. The sawing itself is not hard work, the limiting factor is usually how fast you can offload, or at least how long you can keep it up for  :D Means you do have a machine that's capable of good production if you do end up sawing for hire, and you can tackle jobs that most mills can't.

Ian

[logboy]

If you're cutting logs that big without heavy equipment, go with a swinger.  I just checked via the tool box, and a 40" Red Oak 8' long is 4500 pounds.  There is no way you're moving that with a light skid loader or tractor.  And what someone else loads on your trailer with their heavy equipment might be too heavy to remove with your lighter equipment.



You can really crank out some bdft an hour on the big stuff.  You can saw 10" boards with the Lucas 1030, which is a nice board size no matter what you cut it with.  Back before I owned any moving equipment, we carried the mill back in the woods on occasion then carried the mill and lumber back out.  Did a couple thousand bdft of 2x stock one day like that. Sure did stink carrying it up the hill back out to the highway, but hey, it was free, and inaccessible by any moving equipment.  The slabbing attachment is inexpensive and will put you in great demand if you're not careful.  Most of my business is slabbing now.  Everyone knows someone with a band mill that can cut lumber. Most people I slab for own their own sawmill, usually a band mill, but even big commercial mills.  Here is some ugly WP I slabbed for a commercial mill on Friday.  For size comparison, my max cut width is 60."






Btw, the secret to getting your wife to let you have a skid steer is to have her pull boards for you, then saw 500 bdft an hour. Ask me how I know.

[woodyone.john]

on the informayion i would suggest a swing blade you can cut a lot of timber with them ,they have way lower /cube or bd foot operating cost higher output and you already have a band mill you can resaw with it ,sounds like. then after youve got a stack of timber to sell then try out a hydraulic bandsaw. these are the favorite toy of older men. either way big wood is heavy. understanding tom sawyers fence painting scheme will get you miles out in front.cheers john

[thecfarm]

Spalted,welcome to the forum.  Both would be good in your case. Maybe a small manual bandsaw would get you by on the small ones?

[opticsguy]

I started using a small chainsaw mill many years ago for some projects, mostly 12"x12" beams for a building.  Now 24 years later I purchased a band mill and very happy with everything!! Most of the trees here on my property will fit on my mill . . . . but not all.  I have bigger trees i might want to cut but there is no real need because in the end, most of my boards end up 12" wide and smaller.  As mentioned before there is not much need for larger boards even though I have many  :D .   I do wish my saw could handle much larger logs simply because the ease of working with a larger space around the log. 

Also consider that sawing the log is about 20% of the work of being a sawyer.  Being a one-man operation moving lumber off the saw and moving again and possibly one more time is time consuming and tiring (Not 20 YO anymore). Moving any kind of sizeable slab will quikly become an almost unmovable object.

Also cost of any mill is a consideration.  how much lumber can you buy for the price of a mill, if for your personal use?.  Then again, how much fun can you have buying lumber??

Having said that, wish i had a swing mill also, just in case . . . .

[Spalted]

OK, I'm already finding out posting is a lot harder than it looks.

I've already had 3 failed attempts trying to adequately respond to all the help I had on my first post.  I have no idea how to thank everyone and still keep it brief so I'll just say I've read everybody's response and they have all helped.

Looks like most votes point to the swingblade as the best tool for the job - now I gotta see one run - good call as usual Magicman.

Log size and board weight are going to be a real problem.  Gotta figure out a sensible solution.

Customsawyer, Magicman, Bibbyman and Logboy all leave me with a backache just looking at the log sizes they are cutting.  Logboy, that was one giant on the trailer - same with the WP and thanks for the heads up on the trailer situation.  I guarantee I would have been a victim. Never thought of that.

I'm also hoping I can continue to get some swingblade help from the experts downunder (Ianab your response pretty much sealed my doom.)  I think of Australia and New Zealand as the "mothership" for swingblades.

Despite my targeting wide boards, I know most woodworkers use the narrow stuff (so do I), but I think I'm still gonna try for width.  After all, life can't be easy all the time.

Probably be mid May before I'll have time to pull the trigger.  That means I've got some time to bother everybody with a few more questions. ;D

[Ianab]

The Swingblade mills were developed in NZ and Aussie, mostly because of the local log sizes and the remote areas they tend to grow in. Here it's big softwoods, both native and introduced, while Aussie has some HUGE gum trees. Big and VERY hard dense wood. They do surprisingly well on those really hard wood as the carbide cutters can still pull good size chips and cut at a good rate.

This post from a few years back shows dropping and sawing a pretty normal local tree. Where it fell meant we had to use an excavator (that was there doing other work) to drag the log out. 12 ton excavator wasn't able to lit the butt log, but he was able to drag to a flatter spot for milling.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,22582.msg320938.html#msg320938







There had been discussions on how to fell big leaning tree safely, so that's how the post started out, but went on to show it being sawn up on site. That's how we work to recover big logs, with minimal support equipment.  A portable band mill simply couldn't have done the job.

Ian

[hackberry jake]

I think everybody needs one of each. If I were to get a swinger, it would have to be the little 6" model because of budget. But that would allow me to cut up logs that are way too big for my mill, or at least cut them down until they fit on the bandmill. The portability of the swingers is awesome. I helped move a Lucas about 40 ft once, there's nothing that requires two people to carry.

[Spalted]

Who ever said there's no old growth left?  Ianab, how old are those trees?  Looks like real life Jurassic park. 

With my luck as soon as I get a swingblade I won't see another tree over 12" for a year and all you'll see is me sitting on a single narrow board.

Good to hear about the portability.  I was looking at the weight of the Lucas 1030 powerhead and it's daunting.

[Ianab]

Nothing "old growth" about those trees. They are an import, commonly planted as farm shelter in the 1920-30s. That tree was probably about 70 years old. Some of them a much bigger. It's what we call Macrocarpa (Monterey Cypress in the US). It's a softwood, but the timber is durable, and good enough for furniture or construction. Lower grade stuff we cut for fence boards or landscape timbers.

The local climate just allows some of those imported trees to grow really fast, hence the need for sawmills that can handle oversize logs.

The saw carriage is the heavy part of the mill, but it has clip on wheels to roll it around, so unless the ground is really rough it's only a one person job. Once it's on the rails it's running on rollers and it's a one hand push / pull sort of operation. All the rest of the mill breaks down into easy one person pieces.

Ian

[logboy]

The weight of the power head is not as bad as you think.  It is on removable wheels after all, and it's not hard to rig up behind a 4 wheeler.   Baileys used to have photos of folks taking their Lucas Mills on adventures out through the woods, but it is no longer on their website.  There are a few on the Lucas Mill website though.

http://www.lucasmill.com/NewsReviews/Gallery/tabid/87/AlbumID/428-1/Page/0/Default.aspx

Spalted, I should probably mention that all the milling I do is with one arm.  I lost my right arm below the elbow in Iraq five years ago.  So all the milling and slabbing I do it is with one shrapnel mangled hand and a prosthetic arm.  If I can do it, so can you.  But I'll tell you the same thing I tell other people who are interested in the mill.  If your idea of a workout is walking to the mailbox and back, this isnt the mill for you.  If you enjoy a good workout, and being covered in sawdust leaves you with a sense of accomplishment at the end of the day, then you'll be very happy.  One thing you will like is no more edging.  With every pass you make a fully dimensioned board. No more handling the boards twice.  You will also like how generally low maintenance they are.  Sharpen the blade, add gas and water (blade lube), grease the bearing at the end of each day and blow out the air filter.  Everything you need comes in the toolkit.  Engine parts can be had at any auto parts store.  No fancy electronics to burn out, no hydraulics to leak.  Buy an extra blade or two and a couple replacement roller wheels from Baileys and you'll be good to go.  I love mine.

[Migal]

Like your avitar and you have wood in your viens so im sure you will need both and a large John Deere in the end but check the 36 inch throat machines 8)

[Spalted]

Logboy....don't know what to say except one big fat THANK YOU for defending this country and your sacrifice.  I'm literally speechless.  Not another word out of me about hauling a sawmill anywhere.

Migal, I have been looking hard at the 36" throat bandmills.  I've been teetering on the edge between the swingers and the bands for some time.  If I thought I could get the mill to the trees I'd be on it, but given where most of these trees are I think I need the "walk in" portability.  And that particular question was just settled once and for all by Logboy.
If I can't get the mill to a tree...I'll never admit it

[Migal]

Yes the mill I have is quite large but I do have a way to move the logs to a group. It's ale good in the Hood!