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Wood markets look grim!

Started by Woodhauler, April 12, 2012, 09:04:07 PM

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Woodhauler

Been getting calls from wood buyers up here in maine and the word is DON'T look to sell much softwood till atleast june! The price is dropping on spruce& fir 2 dollars a ton in verso at bucksport and verso jay mill havn't made the drop yet but are thinking about it! When one mill drops they all follow suit! Verso has enough wood in piledown yards to run till end of july! >:(
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Ken

I think part of the problem is the fact that the winter was so good.   All the mills in this area (the few that are left) have their yards full and other pile down yards full as well.  Partly because of the mild winter which allowed for higher production in the bush.  I too expect the softwood markets, especially pulpwood, to be slow to get going this spring.  The only exception seems to be that our hardwood/poplar mill in the area is looking for wood and has kept some contractors on through the spring.

If I'm not mistaken some lumber prices have steadily increased although modestly over the past several months.  That's good news but I am skeptical of a long term trend just yet.   Do your part: build a fence, shop, house, deck, etc, etc, etc  How I would love to see the markets of the mid 90's again.
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Okrafarmer

Our best prices for pulp, so far, are $21/ton for hardwood, and $16/ton for softwood. This has held fairly steady for the last year or so. Forest harvesting takes place year round in this area, so there isn't the wild seasonal fluctuation that you have up north. I've heard repeatedly that pulp prices are significantly higher several hours north into North Carolina, but you would burn it off in fuel and labor getting it there from here.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

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WDH

Okra,

Are those prices delivered?
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Okrafarmer

We deliver them to the log yard. They ship them out of the area on tractor trailers. Nobody I know of comes and picks up pulp if you cut it.  We are trying to start picking up saw logs other people cut, but normally only for free. We would have to charge people if we picked up pulp for them.

So yes, those are the prices we get when we deliver them to the log yard.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

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Mooseherder

Building hardware is going through the roof.
Lumber may be affordable but I think all the other components for building aren't cooperating.

Okrafarmer

Quote from: Mooseherder on April 12, 2012, 10:34:19 PM
Building hardware is going through the roof.
Lumber may be affordable but I think all the other components for building aren't cooperating.

Then I guess wise builders will learn to use more dove-tails, mortisses and tenons, and pegs.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

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Jamie_C

Quote from: Okrafarmer on April 12, 2012, 10:17:11 PM
Our best prices for pulp, so far, are $21/ton for hardwood, and $16/ton for softwood. This has held fairly steady for the last year or so. Forest harvesting takes place year round in this area, so there isn't the wild seasonal fluctuation that you have up north. I've heard repeatedly that pulp prices are significantly higher several hours north into North Carolina, but you would burn it off in fuel and labor getting it there from here.

WOW !!! Thats not much money for wood. Around here thats roughly what you get just to put it at roadside. The delivered price for pulp around here depending on grade would be anywhere from 2X to 3 or 4X that price.

WDH

In most places in the South, pine pulpwood in tree length form in good volume on good logging land (the better tracts, not the fence rows) is bringing $7.50 - $10.00 ton on the stump and the delivered cost is $25.00 to $30.00 per ton.  That is between $68 and $80 per cord by volume, but all wood is sold by the ton

Wood costs in the North are higher to much higher than in the South.  The logging crews tend to be higher volume focused on productivity, and that keeps production cost lower.  Back a few years ago when I was heavily involved in logging, a two skidder crew would average 16 loads per day or 80 loads per week on a clearcut.
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Woodhauler

Quote from: WDH on April 13, 2012, 09:30:21 PM
In most places in the South, pine pulpwood in tree length form in good volume on good logging land (the better tracts, not the fence rows) is bringing $7.50 - $10.00 ton on the stump and the delivered cost is $25.00 to $30.00 per ton.  That is between $68 and $80 per cord by volume, but all wood is sold by the ton

Wood costs in the North are higher to much higher than in the South.  The logging crews tend to be higher volume focused on productivity, and that keeps production cost lower.  Back a few years ago when I was heavily involved in logging, a two skidder crew would average 16 loads per day or 80 loads per week on a clearcut.
Up here in maine we figure a cord of pine pulp at 4400LBs  so that would be 66.00 cd. minus 25 a cord trucking and 10-15dollars a cord stumpage that wouldn't leave much! Glad we get more upm here for it!
2013 westernstar tri-axle with 2015 rotobec elite 80 loader!Sold 2000 westernstar tractor with stairs air ride trailer and a 1985 huskybrute 175 T/L loader!

WDH

SYP is figured on about 2.675 tons per cord or 5350 pounds as it is quite a bit denser so it is not an apples to apples comparison.  A ton is a ton, though.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Okrafarmer

Right here we just don't have a paper mill nearby to haul to, so we get less from the log yards which collect it and haul it far away. We wouldn't sell pulp except for the fact that we are already being paid to haul it off of people's front lawns and we have to go SOMEWHERE with it.

Another thing you northerners might find weird is that hardwood pulp includes a lot of oak, maple, and cherry in it. The better logs go for sawlogs, and the rest end up going for pulp. All species, generally, except walnut, which they won't take because of the chemical makeup which I guess is not helpful in the paper making process, or so I've been told. So we have to sell our scrap walnut for firewood, for even less money.  >:(  Fortunately unfortunately, we don't have that walnut problem very much around here.

What I don't understand is why so many thousands, maybe millions, of acres around here, were planted to pines, when hardwoods grow just as fast, and are worth more for both saw logs and pulp. Must have been a change in the markets from the time those were planted until now.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

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Ron Wenrich

You can get more volume/acre in pine due to the condensed tops and straighter boles.  You also can grow pine on poorer soils than hardwoods. 

Up here, we have very few outlets for hardwood pulp.  Our softer hardwoods are used for shavings mainly on poultry houses.  The hard hardwoods go for firewood.  Better markets and better prices.  Stuff that is too gnarly to put into firewood goes to the pulp mill.

The bigger mills and many loggers don't fool around with pulp at all.  Most foresters don't even mark it.  No money for the forester.
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Tarm

I don't know how you fellows do forestry without a pulp market. For the last thinning of my oak/maple hardwood property (73 acres) the harvest was 3 loads of sawlogs, 1 load of bolts and 32 loads of pulp. The stand looks great. The junk is gone. There are 20 to 40, 12 to 16 inch high quality crop trees per acre ready to pack on the diameter. It turned out great. I guess I'm lucky to be in NE Wisconsin.

SwampDonkey

Without a pulp market up here, it would come to a screeching halt. For some reason at the height of things, they would pay ridiculous prices for veneer that had to be hauled several hundred miles. But it was only trickles of volume which makes it all the more perplexing. There must be hard maple and yellow or black birch closer to home, unless no one wants to cut it for some reason down there. But maybe some of those guys are like Irvings, pay low close to home and pay better far off.  ::)

These days, and since the 80's it's production based for the most part. A hundred acres of hardwood can be cut in a week with 22-30 cord/acre. Woodlots have a mix, there are logging contractors and there are those that do it for enjoyment and it might take 2 weeks to cut a load or all winter. The guys on the farm next door, cut one load of hardwood, 1 load of softwood logs and one load of cedar all winter long with a farm tractor and winch. The truck was stuck for 2 weeks because it was so mild a winter. Some of the hardwood they sold for firewood and used the main paved road as their skid trail for 3 miles to their customer. Which if the road commissioner knew it, they would be strung up. :D Now my father cut lots of wood with an old tree farmer and cut at least 10 cords a day which he hauled every night. He had a skidder man that was more company than of much use as far as bucking wood.
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Ron Wenrich

The way they do it is with diameter limit cuts, and only in sawtimber.  The state marks pulp on public grounds, but private foresters rarely work in pulp.  Since firewood has come into the marketplace, its easier to get some of the independent loggers to cut pulp.  Not so for most mills.  Consultants sell to mills, so they high grade along with everyone else.  I can't think of a bid sheet that I've seen that had pulp on it.  Many guys won't even mark 12" trees.  Mostly 16" and up.  Forest management at its finest.

There are a few guys with whole tree chippers.  But, those markets are starting to dry up.  In the areas that had pulp cutters, they also had deep coal mines.  Those mines needed mine props.  That was a better market than pulp or firewood.  I don't know if many pulp cutters are left.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Okrafarmer

There is, of course, more than one use for pulp/chip logs. Paper, reconstituted chip-based lumber products, biomass fuel, and so on. If your area has trees and not a single one of these scrap log buying entities, then forestry will suffer, as what do you do with all the junk? Firewood is definitely an option, but you have to do something with (A) the tops of the timber trees and (B) the junk trees that are no good for logs. If you don't cut the junk trees down, your woods will get high graded repeatedly and suffer from weeds.

Around here, there seems to be little difference between good soil and bad soil. Hardwood and pines grow equally on both. Tulip trees (yellow poplar) grow as fast as pines, just as straight, and are more valuable, they are a pioneer species and are the tallest hardwood on the east coast, and probably the naturally straightest. Like pines you can usually expect to get at least four logs out of each mature tree. Pine = $170/k at the most and only if the log is 12' or over, and poplar = $250/k for anything that is not an outright pallet log, which would be $175/k. If in a managed forest lot, (or a fertilized lawn) poplar can grow up to an inch a year. The mill we sell to does not distinguish for the amount of growth rings per inch, so a log is a log to them as long as it isn't pallet. Oak grows slower but is $300/k.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

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Now selling Logrite tools!

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Ron Wenrich

Why do you have to do anything with the tops?  They work equally well for keeping nutrients in the nutrient cycle.  Only 10% of the nutrients are in the bole.

Our local biomass mill converted over to natural gas.  You're going to have a rough time competing with NG or coal.  Only if you charge a tipping fee.

We have no pine market.  You hardly see a pine tree in the woods.  Tulip poplar only grows on the better sites.  As you go up the ridge, the soil peters out and it gets taken over mainly by oak.  The further up the ridge, the lower quality oaks take over.  These are areas that should be growing pine.  But, oak is king. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

snowstorm

so you top it at 8 or 10" and leave the tops in the woods? up here if you did that they would call you a wood hack. i take it down to 3"

Okrafarmer

When I say "tops" I mean the woody stem part of the trunk at the top of the tree, not the small limbs. Of course the small limbs and the very top of the tree would stay. But the part of the tree that is still a log but not suitable for lumber is what I refer to when I say the tops. It will take a good while for the log to rot down. If you leave all those logs in the woods, it is a mess. Not a big problem if you are clearcutting, because it will take 20-40 years (or more, depending on location) for the trees to be harvested again. But if you are selective cutting, leaving logs all over the place makes it harder when you come in the next time to do your next selective cut. Some trees rot faster than others, of course. But just a mess and a waste of resources. I suppose if you have the financial incentive to take only the saw logs and leave the rest, and everybody's ok with that, then that's just life. Just unfortunate you can't get a little extra money from the pulp end of every tree.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Okrafarmer

Our pulp buyers have no minimum diameter.  One "asks" for a minimum length of 14', the other, which pays $1 less /ton, asks for a minimum length of 8'. In both cases we sometimes sneak some slightly shorter ones in there and they haven't complained yet, since they don't get out and measure it. They both have a maximum diameter of 24" and will take rotten wood as long as it doesn't break when they pick it up. We sell every limb we can for pulp-- not because it would be worth it if we were cutting a forestry tract-- but because we have to get rid of it all and firewood is not worth messing with around here. I just wish somebody here received 4' pulp, like the markets in Maine used to.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

SwampDonkey

4' pulp in Maine in NB was generally softwood pulp (spruce-fir). Never heard of aspen or hardwood pulp shorter than 8 foot. Even when they cut the Upsulquitch R., for the aspen in the valley, it was not 4 foot to my knowledge and this was horse logging. They had 250 men working teams in the woods on that job.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

snowstorm

what was bosie in rumford used to take only 4' except pople that was tl but it had to be good wood. the ip in jay took everythig either 4' or 8. i dont miss 4' wood

Okrafarmer

The only reason I wish for it is because we end up with a lot of branch pieces that are shorter than 8' that we have to do something with.  :-\
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

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Maine372

dad always said 4ft is just like 8ft, but it takes twice as long to load.

WDH

Quote from: Okrafarmer on April 14, 2012, 12:52:49 AM
What I don't understand is why so many thousands, maybe millions, of acres around here, were planted to pines, when hardwoods grow just as fast, and are worth more for both saw logs and pulp. Must have been a change in the markets from the time those were planted until now.

The fiber characteristics are very different for pine than hardwood.   The fibers in pine are several times longer than hardwood fibers, making them better for absorptive products like baby diapers, which is a huge market.  Hardwood fibers are short and pack down densely on a sheet which is very good for paper like copy and notebook paper.  With the computer age, paper is no longer king.
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Okrafarmer

I understand the difference in uses, but not why people would plant more of something that is not as valuable. I guess you are saying that they thought hardwood wouldn't be valuable any more now that computers are taking over, but they were wrong in their speculation and they planted too many pines so that now the supply is too high, reducing the prices? Anyway, I was basing it on sawlog prices not pulp, but the hardwood pulp is worth more than the softwood pulp, too. Here, anyway.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

SwampDonkey

Hardwood and aspen pulp is also worth more up here to than softwood pulp. But I think with log prices for softwood being low, that drove the pulp price down. Some prices for spruce logs are no better than hardwood pulp. Kraft pulp have been at record highs during and after the economic melt down. That uses a lot of hardwood and aspen. Also we have the rayon market to that uses hardwood and aspen. Most of that goes to Asia.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

From a financial standpoint, taking into account the current and projected stumpage prices, time, and other costs like taxes, softwood rotations provide a higher return on investment than hardwood in most parts of North America.  For example, in the South, a crop of pine will reach market size and market maturity in half the time that hardwood will.  And, time is money when you look at a capital investment. 

That is why there are so many softwood plantations instead of hardwood.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

mills

Okrafarmer, what kind of agreement do you and the landowner have?   I haven't yet figured out how to move enough volume cutting up tops for pulp to make any money.   We have a decent pulp market here in western Kentucky, but its mainly the bigger operations doing clear cuts.   

SwampDonkey

With aspen in the mix, you get a little quicker return. You can cut good sized aspen every 30 years. It won't be huge, but around 12" on average probably. And actually, aspen pays a little more than hardwood.

Softwood plantations are also easier to manage because the deer and moose don't eat up the planted trees. Rabbits (hare) don't care, they eat anything green even spruce and pine. Competition is easier to control with herbicides. In hotter climates to where workers cutting brush are hard to come by, herbicide is the easy solution. I've not seen herbicide kill sugar maple and beech too well, they just slow down. More effective on aspen, birch, willow and alders.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Okrafarmer

Quote from: mills on April 15, 2012, 08:23:13 AM
Okrafarmer, what kind of agreement do you and the landowner have?   I haven't yet figured out how to move enough volume cutting up tops for pulp to make any money.   We have a decent pulp market here in western Kentucky, but its mainly the bigger operations doing clear cuts.

The arrangement is something like this. The customer has a tree in their yard that they do not want any more, either because they consider it is dangerous, or in their way, or whatever. My boss comes and gives them an estimate. He gives them a price which varies based on a number of factors. Suppose it is a medium sized water oak (2-3 ft diameter).  He gives them a price, like $1,500. We come in. He climbs the tree (if needed) and cuts the limbs off, roping them down so they do not hit the house or other obstacles (as applicable). We cut the small brush off and chip it. We cut the limbs into pulpwood except the inevitable ones that are too short, in which case they are firewood. We cut down the main trunk, using a continuous rope puller to assure it falls in the right direction. We cut the main trunk into saw logs (often pallet grade if the tree grew all nasty), and any that can't qualify for saw logs any which way, get cut up for pulp logs. Then we load either the pulp or the sawlogs on the truck (or both together if the tree(s) are small enough to do all in one load. Then we haul the pulp to the log yard and the saw logs to the sawmill. we clean up the jobsite (often grinding the stump) and the home owner pays us the $1,500. The pulp yard gives us about $100 per dump truck load, weighed by the ton, and the sawmill gives us about $2-300 for a dump truck load of saw logs. We deposit all the checks, and then we can make payroll, pay for gas, and sometimes pay for repairs.  ;) The firewood goes on a a pickup and trailer to be taken back to the ranch and be piled, in pieces just small enough for us to load it and unload it by hand. Then when somebody doesn't know what else to do at the moment, they cut it stove length and split it. Then we sell the firewood for less than we have invested in it in terms of labor, and/or it sits around and rots.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Okrafarmer

Quote from: mills on April 15, 2012, 08:23:13 AM
We have a decent pulp market here in western Kentucky, but its mainly the bigger operations doing clear cuts.

By the way, my parents live in western KY, just west of Kentucky Lake.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Ianab

That's the thing here. You are making most of the profit on removing the tree. Selling the wood is just the icing. Better to sell a load of pulp logs for $100 as opposed to paying $100 to dump it at a landfill. Or in this case, you can do the job for the customer $200 cheaper, and so get the job.

But the tree in the yard still has a negative value. Costs more to harvest than the logs are worth.

When they harvest local trees some of it goes as pulp grade logs, but again they barely cover the trucking. But they have got 4 better sawlogs out of the tree already, and that's 98% of the value. Those top logs are still at the landing, and they need to do something with them. But harvesting for pulp only is not economic, unless it's on a really large scale, and close to the mill. Then they grow the trees on a shorter rotation (~15years) and harvest them more like corn. Big mechanised processor, loaded on oversize trucks and hauled to the mill on private forestry roads (no weight or length restrictions on the trucks)

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Okrafarmer

You are right, Ianab.

The specifics are going to vary with location, market, tree species, and so on. But the question is, does the land owner require all the trees to be removed? Do they require the undesirable ones removed, so that more desirable ones can grow? Do they require that all the top logs not be left around?

In our case, pulp is worth about half to 2/3 of truckload value, compared to saw logs, depending on species. Seetgum, for instance, a ubiquitous weed, is a relatively heavy hardwood. A dump truck full of sweetgum pulp is worth around $120, whereas a dump of sweet gum saw logs at $175 / k might be worth about $175. More if the logs are big diameter. The smaller the logs are, of course, the less they are worth per ton as saw logs, since the saw logs are sold on either the Doyle or Scribner C scale and there is more waste as the log gets smaller.

But all sweetgum ought to be cut, whether they make a saw log or not, to improve the stand. especially if selective cutting on a worst-first basis. However, clear-cutting is more common here, in which case everything is taken regardless, resulting in a lot of pulp anyhow. Clearcutting around here means 20-30 years later you have mature pines, tulip poplars, sweetgums, and water oaks, with a handful of cherry, red oak, and immature white oak, hickory, and red cedar. That means you can clearcut again and not reseed it, every time that happens you have the same pioneer species mix and it doesn't improve much if any. If you want mature white oak, red oak, red cedar, hickory (most people don't), and other fun stuff like that, you have to manage for it or else let it grow longer than 30 years.

So much good could be done for peoples' forests if they would just implement a worst-first selective cut strategy. But these strategies don't pay for themselves up front, and everybody would rather take the smaller lump sum up front than wait for dividends in the future.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

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