new sawyer needs help with first paying job!!!

[countryjonez]

this is my first job sawing for anyone other than myself. a friend of a friend wanted me to saw up around 3000 feet of logs into 5/4 to make hardwood flooring.the logs were to be dropped at my house in random lengths none longer than 11',as that is about max capacity for the lt10. the truck that brought me the logs showed up with none of the logs bucked to size.most ranged from 13' to 22'. the problem is i have a system that leaves me a runway to my mill with bays that i put the logs in, outside of the runway. i am limited on space and is the only way to have the logs ready in a trouble free space for max output for min work. the logs in the length i got had to be put in a large pile that isnt easy to work from as i have no support equiptment. my question,is there a typical charge for bucking and the extra moving of logs.and should i charge for the help that i now need to do the same job.and if so then what? i have been reading old posts and it seems to me the price per board foot is mainly just for running the mill with minimal other work. am i close or off base? please help. thanks in advance

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Have you already quoted your customer a price?

[countryjonez]

gave a price for bucked logs, that the driver was going to set in proper bays for ramping. they are in a big pile on top of each other. my space requires a paticular spacing without any equptment.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

gave a price for bucked logs, that the driver was going to set in proper bays for ramping. they are in a big pile on top of each other. my space requires a paticular spacing without any equptment.

If the driver was suppose to set the logs in proper bays, which he didn't.....I would call the customer and come up with a plan. He may want to rent, or borrow a tractor for a few hours to get these logs in place for sawing.
But to answer your other question, I saw hardwood at 30 cents a board foot. If I have to buck, I charge 2 dollars per log. Where I work, that's very fair but I let the customer know ahead of time.

[beenthere]

Call the customer and let him/her know, and give them a choice...either they hire or come do the work or you will do it for so much an hour.

[countryjonez]

the customer was supposed to buck the logs before the driver picked them up.he knows the space problem.he chose not to do that.i will buck them up but it makes it a problem where they are laying as well.

[Dan_Shade]

have you asked him why they aren't bucked up?

What outcome/resolution do you want?

[cypresskayaksllc]

Thats a tough one.  ???

[countryjonez]

i will let him know a price but wanted to get a price in mind before a called him.just a fair price. it will cost me around 12-15 man hours extra work this way.

[Dave VH]

now I'm still new to the game.

I know that it might be a bit more work, but i prefer for my logs to come long, and I buck them where I can harvest the most out of them.  Either for bends, or rotten areas, whatever.  If you are looking to do this for money, to be fair to the customer, I would do everything that I could to look into some kind of support equipment.  Even if it is an old little tractor with forks on the 3-point. 
  If you want repeat business, there is more to it than just being a good sawyer.  You need to be able to give your customer some convienence too.  Please don't think that I'm trying to pick on you by any means.  You've got a great start going for ya.  You've got a good value sawmill, and customers ready to hire you.  That's enough right there to make a lot of people jealous.
  Some of the factors on your decision is what kind of competition is there around you.
Good luck

[countryjonez]

im in the process of fixing a 52 model 8n, and trust me when i tell you i needed it years ago. the reason for the problem is the customer came to the site and i showed him how i need to arrange logs to make my small operation work as efficient as possible without equiptment.and the driver also came to look at the site to see the set up,and he had me move a bunch of logs i already had around so we could make this happen so when the logs got there they could be put in the ideal location. i am a contractor by trade and understand the importance of repeat business and keeping people happy,but ive been in business long enough to know people try to get every extra thing they can get also. with that being said it is a balancing act between happy people and making an honest wage. and to tell the truth when i saw how many logs were on that truck i got a little nervous.my mill started looking smaller and smaller ha ha. thanks for all posts. i have alot to learn and want to do a good job and make some extra money in between construction jobs.

[Okrafarmer]

This is just a suggestion-- if you still haven't talked to him yet-- I would think about going and finding him in person, and not talking about it on the phone. Greet him with a smile, and edge into the topic sideways, first saying something like, "I'm about to start on your logs; you've got some nice looking wood there" and then work around to the, "I'm kind of trying to figure out how best to do this." And pause to make him respond to you, make him say something like "Oh?" or "So what's the matter?" or "Ok?" or whatever. Then it's a matter of, "Well, based on the length of my mill, I needed. . . . .  and so on."  Tell him the same things you know you already told him. Keep calm and don't take an accusatory tone. See how he reacts to that. He may say something like, "oh, ok, sorry about that. So what do we need to do now?" But if he doesn't, then you stay calm and you end up being the one to say "so what do you suppose we should do?" A little awkward, but diplomatic, and he can't accuse you of being unreasonable without lying.

[countryjonez]

i like your style farmer. could have used that advice years ago on some construction jobs. i stay  calm these days.i was hoping to have a number in mind for the back up plan. thanks

[Dan_Shade]

my suggestion is to figure out what you want, you said above that getting the logs this way would cost you an extra 15 hours.  What is your time worth per hour?

Have you figured out how many hours the entire job will be? 

How many logs are there?  can you drag them with a pickup?  Do you have any way to move logs at all? (there are some canthook/log handling tricks that can make your life easier).

[Okrafarmer]

Well for the number, you will have to come up with something that compensates your time reasonably, but not to the point of seeming like a jerk for charging so much. I'm not much help, am I?  :D

[Tom the Sawyer]

Countryjonez,

I have a log/site prep fee for that very reason.  Most clients understand how to get their logs staged for an efficient day's milling because we discussed it during the site visit.  Once in awhile I show up and their logs aren't ready or are scattered around the lot, too large for their chainsaw, etc.  If it is only 15 minutes or so its no big deal but longer than that should go on the clock. 

Moving logs by hand, bucking and limbing, cleaning logs, or stacking slabs can wear you out quicker than sawing, which is what you are there to do.  If they help then it should take less time and they'll understand how to be prepared the next time.  Of course, there are times when you just take care of it and write it off.   8)

[Brucer]

If you want me to do something around my mill that you should have done, it'll cost you $30 per hour. If it involves a chainsaw, it'll cost you $35 per hour. If it involves the front end loader, it goes to $75 per hour, based on the meter.

Those numbers pay me for my time, and operating and maintenance costs on the machines. They also include and "aggravation factor". I'd rather be sawing timbers from my own logs for my other customers.

I base my numbers on these two questions: If I don't get the work, will I be disappointed and wish that I had charged a little less? If I do get the job, will I curse myself and wish that I had charged a little more?

You're in a bit of a tough spot because you didn't discuss additional costs with your customer beforehand. After all, you figured he was going to do what you asked him to.

Discuss it with your customer. The way you say it is important. Don't make this an accusation about what he did wrong, make it about your feelings. He can argue back at you if you try to put the blame on him -- he can't argue about how you feel. Tell him you're disappointed that the logs weren't cut and staged as specified because it will make a lot of unexpected work for you. Say that if you had known the logs would arrive like that, you would have charged more.

By the time this conversation takes place, you will have an idea of what you'd like to get for the job. Let him ask you how much extra. Be prepared to negotiate. If he figures your number is too much, ask him what he thinks would be reasonable. This is best done face-to-face.

Bottom line, if you have to do extra unpaid work, consider it to be the cost of the ongoing education of a sawyer.

[Chuck White]

Definately contact your customer and explain your predicament!

As mentioned, it sounds like the bucking and stacking will be a lengthy job, so you have got to be compensated for your work and time.

[Magicman]

You began by saying that the customer was a friend.  The person delivering the logs was not the customer, so a conversation is in order, and mandatory.  Talk is always your friend and understanding is better, and the understanding goes both ways.

If 11' is your maximum and some 13' were delivered, then he is either going to loose 2' or you will be sawing shorts which take more time.  Excessive log handling is labor intensive and he should understand that you must be paid for your time.  A reasonable hourly rate is in order.

[countryjonez]

thanks for all posts. i will call him today and just ask him if he was planning on doing the bucking and moving for me,which i know he is not. but then ask him what he charges an hour for his landscaping business,and let him know my extra time will be billed at the same rate he charges.good for the goose good for the gander.

[bugdust]

The saying "hindsite is 20/20" holds true here. Like you, I would have expected the customer to have followed-up with his log delivery. Is it your fault the logs arrived in that condition? I think not. Magicman always stresses the necessity for a contract, and this is a good example. The guys have given some excellent advise (as usual), so now you have a good idea how to approach the customer. I would suggest that in the future if you plan to take on outside sawing you might want to consider some type of support equipment for handling logs. Good luck!

[Okrafarmer]

This is part of why I charge hourly when I custom mill anyway. All that stuff is included. I generally do it all with the customer right there, so they see what is involved and are helping with it.

[beenthere]

Sounds like a good plan.
Do you have a pic of the space you are dealing with?

............ suggest that in the future if you plan to take on outside sawing you might want to consider some type of support equipment for handling logs.

That may be what the friend of your friend decided too, that getting logs on your mill is your problem, not his. Regardless, you tried to lay out the conditions on which you would saw his logs. He hasn't met them yet.

[Dave VH]

  Man, after you explained a little more on how clear you were about how to deliver the logs and all,  It sounds like you have every right to get paid a bit better, or go to an hourly rate for all of the extra time that they caused you for sure.
  If you've been a contractor for long, then you probably know a bit about handling customers who are either trying to take advantage of you, or not caring about your requirements.  I'm also a contractor by trade.  Contracting, sawmilling, it all seems the same.  You have some great customers that you just want to give stuff to, then you have some customers that you wish would loose your number.

[SwampDonkey]

You being the sawyer have mill specs you discussed with your customer. If wood products were hauled to a commercial mill not to specs (length, min top diameter, sweep, but flare, risers) then you would be directed out the mill gates.  But still, if your going to mill custom then get set up for the job. ;)