no excuses

[red oaks lumber]

this is a scene that seems to be played over and over. this week i had a customer bring in 1359 b.f. of green sawed red pine, my customer lives 100 miles away so bringing lumber was easier than logs so, he hired a sawyer close to his location.
the pine logs were from a plantation so not the biggest  i guess around 8"- 12"dia. customer  tells the sawyer you can make 3 sizes i'm having t&g wall board made so random is good.
back to my customer showing up to unload at my shop, we go look at the load of lumber, the first thing i noticed just glancing at them was random width so i asked how come so many sizes? well he said there is only 3 sizes.when all the wood was stickers i had a tally of sizes 3/1/2  4   4 3/4   5  1/2  6   7  7 1/2  and 8
first off if some one is paying for sevices atleast they should get what they asked for, to me there is no excuse for this saw job at all. cutting small wood or not making 3 sizes is very simple if you are any kind of sawyer.
the customer already paid to have his wood sawed now he gets to pay for drying and ripping of wood he wont even see, i wont charge him for the time i stand there and measure and sort all sizes then come up with the  widths i'll make.
this kinda of poor sawing happens alot so for any one sawing or thinkijng of sawing please, know what it is your doing before sawing lumber  or at the very least ask for help
  remember there are no excuses

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Good story Steve and GOOD ADVICE. I can see the look on your face when you first looked at the 3 sizes!  :D

Better yet.....I could hear you all the way down South.  :D

You made a good point though. Advice taken.

[LOGDOG]

You're 100% correct Red Oaks Lumber .... Considering that most all of our bandmills are capable of sawing to within 1/16" if they're properly aligned, there's no reason not to be able to calculate, even manually how to set your cant up so that you end up with the intended dimension of lumber at the end. Flitches can be edged to size. It would be one thing if we were talking wide boards that had been stickered for a while, drying and shrinking to create some difference in widths but it doesn't sound like this was the case here.

[WDH]

That sure creates a lot of extra work.

[Magicman]

And it also sheds a poor light on sawyers in general.  I had to overcome that stigma in my area and prove to folks that quality and uniformly sawed lumber was possible.

[kenlt30]

I had a repeat customer call me to straighten out some floor joists he had sawn by someone else. I made sure the waves were gone and the previously sawn lumber was straight. One local sawyer here saws cheaper and with dull blades.

[Magicman]

I do not even consider someone that saws cheaper as competition.  They know what their sawing is worth and folks get what they pay for.

[WDH]

In my experience, cheap does not pay  .

[Larry]

I question your customer.  First he pays a sawyer to saw three sizes but accepts 8 sizes.  Than he will end up driving 400 miles to have you dry and T&G a small amount of lumber. 

I would think by the time he's done he could have had T&G delivered for less $$$ and not done a thing.

Sometimes its best not to question. :(

[red oaks lumber]

when a good portion of my buisness is custom planing boy then you really see what kind of wood jockeys are out there cutting lumber ;)
earlier this year i was going through the history of red oaks lumber inc. i realized i past a couple of milestones. 1) served over 7000 customers  2) had 19 million b.f. of lumber pass through the shop either from drying or planing. no wonder my body is wore out :D
   

larry,
i pointed the sizes out just by looking at them at first not measuring them. when people deal with me its not just the wood transaction its the whole  expeirance, its a learning thing. my motto is " we meet as strangers and part as friends''. this customer has had me do wood flooring and wall board for 3 of his houses over the yrs.

[captain_crunch]

Guess I should feel good I have 2 cabnit makers bring wood to me even knowing Belsaw has bigger kerf by far over band mill Just because I try hard and kinda understand getting all the quarter sawn I can but look fer the riff sawn and flat sawn fer building chairs. Anybody can butcher a log Mr Magicman has it well written at bottom of his posts

[Brucer]

I had a competitor who always knew what was best for the customer. One of the customers always asked for timbers with no wane. If the guy had a log that was a bit to small, he'd saw it with wane on all for corners. When the customer complained, the guy would say "That's good enough for what you're using it for."

And guess who ended up with all the future work from that particular customer  ;D ;D ;D.

Sometimes your competitors are your best advertisement.

[Ron Wenrich]

Were a good deal of those boards in 3 different widths?  Some of those differing widths could be from going through an edger.  When they tell me random width, that's what they get.  Sounds more like a poor communication between customer and sawyer, or sawyer and edgerman. 

[tcsmpsi]

Were a good deal of those boards in 3 different widths?  Some of those differing widths could be from going through an edger.  When they tell me random width, that's what they get.  Sounds more like a poor communication between customer and sawyer, or sawyer and edgerman.

I was curious if the 'owner' had communicated properly to the sawyer.  I would say they were likely sawn on the mill, where an edger wasn't used.  If the customer had intimated they were going to another fellow finishing, he may have considered it little consequence, as to random widths, since they were going to be 'squared up' anyhow.
Certainly, that is not to say that all sawyers are conscientious of quality above and beyond.  Just possibilities. 

[red oaks lumber]

how difficult is the conversation i want 3 sizes? i think a 6 yr old can under stand that. every sawing job is the calling card of the sawyer, good sawing positive advertising , poor sawing bad advertising.
when we  are planing some one elses wood that was not sawed by us, if the sawing is good or bad i make sure to explain that to my customer and urge them to talk to the sawyer that did the sawing. i have even told them to have the sawyer call me so i can give them suggestions for improving their sawing skills. as of this time not 1 sawyer has ever called and i'm still gettting the same poor sawing coming in for planing.

[beenthere]

tells the sawyer you can make 3 sizes i'm having t&g wall board made so random is good.

In the OP, this is what we read. So if random is good, then random is what apparently was sawn out of the logs. Probably with a higher yield than if just three widths.

Least that is what I was reading into this.

[Ron Wenrich]

Random width with 3 sizes isn't random width.  The customer should have specified that they wanted 4,6,& 8 inch lumber, for example.  Then they probably would have gotten the widths and the amounts they wanted.  The customer got what he ordered.  Random width. 

We don't know what the other sawyer was told or what he understood.  Seems like we shouldn't be berating them without knowing the full story.  If someone told me to call them for sawing advice, I think I'd pass.  They don't know my logs or my equipment or my experience.

[Cedarman]

Maybe random was random length.  If I was the sawyer, a red flag just got thrown. I would have said  "Drag that by me again, what widths are you wanting?"  Communication, Communication, Communiction.
When talking with anyone inquiring about cedar, it is one of my main responsibilities to make sure what the customer "really" wants is understood by me.  It is also my responsiblity to make any suggestions or ask all the appropriate questions.
When someone asks for 2x4, I need to know what actual size is expected. Full 2x4 or nominal size or something in between. Does it need to be planed? How good does the 2x4 need to be?  Are you cutting any of them into shorts?(Lets me use some that have too big a defect by cutting off the bad). Thus, I won't have to hear, "That's not what I expected".
So, is it the customer's fault for not being clear or is it the sawyer's fault for not making the customer be clear?

[red oaks lumber]

i guess there  is the problem. 3 sizes is 3 sizes the sawyer can detemine what  size to make the 3 sizes.
ron, if some one is having you saw wood for them to have flooring made with and its coming to me for procesessing do yopu know anything about how we like to have material sawed? or how the whole process works? this problem keeps happing
the more posts the more the blame keeps being put on the customer not on the sawyer.unless the sawyer is completly clear on what the final goal is , no sawdust should fly.

[Magicman]

Using 3 different sizes at random is different from 8 different sizes.

My wall paneling lumber that is at the kiln is sawed 6, 8, 10, & 12 and will be used at random.   In my instance, random did not mean 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, or any halves.  Of course, I sawed it so I got what the "customer" ordered.   ;D

[Ron Wenrich]

We're all envisioning what the conversation went like.  To me, the customer comes up and says that he wants random width so he can make 3 different widths of T&G paneling.  My next question would be what widths did he want, and they would be my target.  Would they be all exactly the same?  I wouldn't be as concerned about that.  Its going to be remanufactured.  I'm a rough cut mill.

However, I'm not sure that the customer specified 3 widths to the sawyer.  He may have said random width, then decided he wanted 3 width sorts after it was sawn.  We just don't know.  That's why I wouldn't be too rough on the other sawyer.  I do know that a lot of customers don't know what they want until after its sawn.   And, we don't know if the customer even talked to the sawyer or if he talked to the mill owner.  They're not necessarily the same.  I always get order information on a second or third hand basis.  Too late to ask the customer in most instances.  Most is construction lumber.  Sure glad I deal with commercial customers.

I saw 1-2 trailerloads of flooring lumber each month.  It is always random width and random length.  Never had complaints. 

[tcsmpsi]

Personally, I haven't seen anyone trying to "lay blame" on the 'customer'.  Only thing that might be construed to that, would have been, that since none of us were privy to the communication between the sawyer and his/her customer, blaming the sawyer would be a bit premature.

Now, on my end of it, a customer brings me random width boards (wherever they got them from), and wants 3 specific widths from them, then he/she is liable for the resources required to make them all those specific widths.  If they find that problematic, then I would explain to them the process on the milling end (or if they found them laying on the side of the road) to get them to me so they don't require those resources. 

Certainly, it is no secret that poorly adjusted mills and sawyers (and everything else) ungraciously exist.

Maybe next time they would have me just go ahead and do the milling, planing and/or moulding.  Which would suit me just swell.   :D

[beenthere]

Regardless of what happened earlier, there is now a stack of pine lumber that needs to be made into t&g. Will it end up in three widths?

It is what it is, and you now make the deal with your customer to turn it into a product he wants at a price he will pay.

The extra wood will just end up in shavings at the moulder rather than in edgings at the sawmill.

[LOGDOG]

...but he'll pay ROL for kiln drying, ripping and shaving off through the moulder the waste that may have been left in edgings at the mill. Truth be told, a lot of that can be avoided by the way you set up your log and cant.

[red oaks lumber]

when i'm done there will be 3 exact sizes. he'll have less wood and more cost when its all said and done. rough sawn dosent mean get it kinda of close in size.
differant angle if you wanted new tires put on your truck would you be happy if they put on 3 tires that were the right size and the last one was differant? i dont think any one would let that happen  poor sawed lumber is really the same thing. it dosent take any more time doing something right as it does doing it close enough.