The Frost Heave that ate my driveway

Randall · February 21, 2004, 03:39:10 PM

Spring seems to have arrived in North Idaho and I've got a bulge about 6"-8" high and about 20'x40' in my turn-around area. I can hear it to, .. the little air bubbles comming up through the muck. I've shaped the area to drain well but not having come from the cold part of the country,.... how long does it take for something like that to melt? This doesn't look good. :

SwampDonkey · February 21, 2004, 04:33:35 PM

Well up this way weight restrictions and road closures start in mid march and are lifted by the first of june. Sounds like your at a toe of a slope and the water table is high, or a spring that likes to well up through the frost crystals. ;)

I suggested a site down the road from me for building a house. I knew there was good water there and suspected an artisen well from the shape of the terrain and a spring that comes to surface in the spring and fall. When they drilled the well in late fall they struck a vein of that artesian well and water was spraying up outta that thing all winter. :D :D

I know where there are two more artesians out in the middle of no where and the water never stops flowing up out of the pipe. They were on the sites of two different logging camps. The camps are long gone now, but the water keeps spurtin out the pipes.

isawlogs · February 21, 2004, 05:52:08 PM

Where I am it could take up to 1 month after the snow has gone for the frost to be out of the ground and then a few weeks for itall to get back to normal.....

ADfields · February 21, 2004, 08:58:11 PM

Hear, in late april we will get a 2 or 3 day long rain then the sun comes out and my front steps are flat for the summer. :D Then the shop is a pond and the yard is a mud bog off and on till mid to late may. :

Live in the north, learn to deal with heave! ;) :

I would think what you have is indian summer in Idaho right now and you will likely get some more cold before spring time. If you dig out the dirt down to a foot below the frost line and replace it with rock (so it wont hold water to freeze) you wont get heave in the first place, that is unless it's a spring then build it up so the water is under the new frost line. :P but it's cheeper to just live with it. ;)
Andy

redpowerd · February 21, 2004, 09:12:12 PM

what do you have for soil?

Captain · February 22, 2004, 04:23:21 AM

and is it in the shade or sun??

Sawyerfortyish · February 22, 2004, 06:01:49 AM

Last year I had ice in the spot I unload my log truck. It's a small uphill slope and the tires would just spin . All I had was some rock salt so I put it down. The salt drew the frost out of the ground and made mud. Every time I went through a little deeper. Finnally after it got almost waist deep I put two 6 yrd loads of coarse shale in to bring it back up to grade. It still took two weeks to dry out so the ground didn't shift like a sponge under my wheels.

SwampDonkey · February 22, 2004, 06:45:28 AM

Folks up here who operate in the woods are beginning to realize they can't make decent roads with bull dozers. All you end up with is a ditch for a road because they just scrape the top soil off down to substrate which contains alot of clay , thus making a wet road. Of course most of those roads were for winter access, so it never made a difference for the harvest. Now we have to travel those old roads to do silviculture and its a pain in the @$$. Use an escavator to build your road and you'll find a world of difference in your road, with proper ditching and crowning of the road bed.

Randall · February 22, 2004, 07:05:02 AM

The top 4' is mostly silt and it's in the sun on a small slope. It seems this only happens in places I keep the snow scraped off, like roads. I've never seen it in the woods. It's been suggested that before I put down 8"-12" of course shale there is a type of sheet that would go down first to keep the gravel from sinking. I'm thinking the old TV commercials called it Petro-Mat. Anyone have experience with that? This is great living in the North where there's four actual seasons. This is my second winter. I doubt I'll ever get sick of the snow and cold.

Where I grew up there were only two seasons, Fall and Hotter-Than-Hell. :D

redpowerd · February 22, 2004, 07:57:19 AM

QuoteThis is my second winter. I doubt I'll ever get sick of the snow and cold

ya may not get sick of it, but im sure yall get cabin fever. give yerself some time

Norm · February 22, 2004, 08:01:49 AM

I get those spots here too. Every spring I still have to bring in fresh rock. I'm not a big fan of the underlayment you spoke of. I think a plastic drainage tile and then plenty of fill will help more.

Sawyerfortyish · February 22, 2004, 04:39:11 PM

Well in most parts of the north there are only two seasons snowfly and blackfly ;D

ADfields · February 22, 2004, 04:56:28 PM

<<Where I grew up there were only two seasons, Fall and Hotter-Than-Hell.>>

Randall, what part of Arizona did you grow up in? :D :D :D :D
Andy

SwampDonkey · February 22, 2004, 05:05:22 PM

I like it here from April until November because of the long days. I don't care for this daylight savings bull. Doesn't change the number of daylight hours, when you get up before the sun anyway. ;)

Randall · February 22, 2004, 06:14:02 PM

Thanks Norm_F for your thoughts on the underlayment.

Has anyone else ever used that Petro-Mat type stuff? I'd sure rather not have to put down 1'-2' of shale like some people have told me. ???

bitternut · February 22, 2004, 09:48:41 PM

I have seen that fabric put down under driveways and road beds every where. It even works good in boggy areas. Never heard anyone complain about it not doing what it is supposed to do. I know a couple of dozer guys that build logging roads and they swear by it for the soft spots.

isawlogs · February 22, 2004, 10:36:14 PM

the nfabrick your talking about we have used when road construction (bush roads ) It is used over culverts to cover the rocks and prevent the finer materials to sep trough into the rocks and possiblely into the water .. We also used it in soft spots but for a different reason it is used somewhat like branches where used in the days when my dad was just starting , you put it down and then put your material on top and it to suport the load and it works great.Just like the branches did back then .
But it will not do anything for frost in the ground the ground will freeze and it will heave if not properly prepared.
It will hapen where you plow your roads because the frost can go deeper then where you dont because the snow acts as a insulator

Norm · February 23, 2004, 03:33:01 AM

The reason I don't care for it is it acts more as a water trap than to keep the fill from going deeper. A field tile down the center of a drive with good fill on top makes for good drainage.

Just my 2 cents, worth exactly what you paid for it.

ADfields · February 23, 2004, 01:42:25 PM

I tend to agree with Norm on the trapping of water under a porous road bed. In use under blacktop or concrete that sheds off water (like it was meant to be used) or in some limited use roads like for logging I would be very useful. Even then it wont do a thing to help frost heave. What you need is a layer of some thing that will not hold water above the frost line to beat frost heave.
Andy