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cost saving: nail in brace

Started by Alexis, February 25, 2012, 03:28:37 PM

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Alexis

Hi, I would like to know what you think of using nail in brace in order to save on money when contracting a company to build a tf home? The nail in brace saves 2 mortises and 2 tenon of cutting time and since they should work in pair in compression, it shouldn't affect the strenght... any opinons?

Dave Shepard

You will save maybe 45 minutes on joinery. I don't know how out will affect the engineering, however.
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Brian_Weekley

In my opinion, part of the beauty of a timber frame is the pegged joinery.  Removing the mortise and tenon from the braces certainly removes some of the overall character.
e aho laula

Piston

Alexis,
I personally think it would be a shame to use nailed braces in a handcut timber frame.  It is also not nearly as strong as a properly cut brace with mortise and tenon. 

But, that's just my opinion  ;D

-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

bigshow

at a minimum, house it and put in a fake peg. 
I never try anything, I just do it.

Brad_bb

Wouldn't be nearly as strong. It does affect strength.  Instead of the wood in compression, you would have nails in shear(that could loosen over time or blacken the wood).   What's the point in a timberframe if you want to do this?  It's not really a timberframe then.  In comparison to the whole finished product, how much more work is cutting the braces in?  Not that much more.  What timberframer would go along with this?  No, do it right or build a stick/2X building.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Dave Shepard

I agree with the aesthetic issues mentioned, but was trying to answer only the question that was asked.  ;)  Nailed braces do show up on older buildings. I have to put together a bid on a late 1700's building here that has all nailed braces. But I don't have to like it. :D How many braces are there in the frame? Even at an hour additional time each, I think they are well worth it.
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Alexis

thanks for all your answer... I was just thinking out loud :)

What about other cost/time saving strategy that you could apply in a timber frame? running joist on top of the beam instead of joining into it are an obvious answer but do you have others?

Brad_bb

How about cutting the braces yourself instead of the framer?  It's a great way to learn. Get some coaching from the framer for the first one or two and take it from there.  You guys can set up a test mortise to check your tennons.  Get your material, a 2" chisel, Stanley sharptooth saw, a mallet, a good tape measure, a framing square and a machinist square and do it!  Do those well and maybe the framer will let you cut more frame pieces? 
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

GW67

It is easy for many to say cut it yourself but many things have to be considered before making that decision such as time, skill level, resources etc.

Alexis, to save money you could look at things like the type of wood being used for the frame, size of timbers (providing your engineer approves), simple joinery vs. complex joinery.  Also, you may want to look at the big picture, spend the money on the frame, which in my opinion will be the focal point, and save money on things like an ashphalt roof vs. steel roof, carpet instead of hardwood, laminate vs. granite.  Savings can be found in many areas other than the frame itself. 

Best of luck with your project.
don't worry what other people think of you because if you only knew how little they actually do, then you wouldn't worry what they think at all

Aikenback

You sound like one of my cheapskate customers,lol.
no whining.

Thehardway

I don't know how much it would save but in many old frames the braces were half-lapped half dovetails pegged onto the posts/beams. Doing it this way the joints could be cut more quickly using a saw with little to no chiseling needed.  I am NOT recommending this over a true M&T but it does give you the benefits of a good bracing system in both tension and compression modes without all the labor.  The problem here comes in if your braces decide to twist.  On the other hand it can easily be replaced and it is easier to assemble/erect.

They are visually just as appealing if not more so than a stub M&T as the joint is fully exposed to view.  On outside walls both are hidden so it really makes no difference.

One thing that can be done to save cost is a hybrid appraoch using conventional balloon framed walls and then TF trusses or reversing and using a TF post beam and joist frame with conventional lightweight roof trusses depending on what parts of the house will be exposed to view.

It all depends on your objectives and your preference.

I would disagree with substituting an asphalt shingle roof for metal, metal is far superior in both performance and lifespan.  The roof is what protects your investment.  Use metal and you will probably never touch it in your lifetime. Use asphalt shingles and you will be up there every 15 years. More in high wind areas.  Add to that the fact that metal has been fairly stable in price while record increases in oil prices are driving up the cost of Asphalt roofing and it is questionable if there is any savings at all.  If so it is usually in installation labor but with metal you will only pay this once. That isn't even taking into account what you will save on heating/cooling bills.

If I were looking at saving money on a house I would look at places other than the envelope.  Things like using a concrete slab with DIY PEX pipe radiant heat allow you to downsize or eliminate costly ductwork and HVAC units, eliminate floor joists, subfloor,  piers etc.  and you can stain/polish the concrete and eliminate the need for costly floor coverings. This should easily pay for your frame joinery and it makes the house more comfortable.  Windows and doors are a huge cost item and have a lot of room for savings if you shop them around well.

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frwinks

ah yes, the ever so cool half-lapped dovetail braces.  Can't be all that bad, I see it used in both historic and modern European TF.  Not sure if it's a time saver though, maybe in layout?

Very appealing to look at though ;D


Thehardway

The style I had in mind is not near as fancy or decorative as that one, WOW.  What I was referring to you cut a half dovetail at the ends of your brace by simply notching one side. You then lay the brace on your post and scribe the dovetail all the way across.  You then make the two non paralell cuts with a saw and remove the waste.  The dovetail drops in and you trim the end to match the edge of the post.  They may be flush or some may be left proud.  Some are half lapped and some are not depend on how fancy you want to get.  I could cut one of these, both ends of the brace, including layout in about 15 min. with a handsaw and a sharp chisel.  Probably less with a circular saw if it was plugged up and ready to go.

Thanks for the picture though FR, it is a good illustration of a nice looking half dovetail brace joint.  Hope this helps with the posters question.
Norwood LM2000 24HP w/28' bed, Hudson Oscar 18" 32' bed, Woodmaster 718 planer,  Kubota L185D, Stihl 029, Husqvarna 550XP

shelbycharger400

frwinks

what is that material on the roof?

frwinks

the pic it's just something I pulled off the net to show off the purdy braces...
but the roofing material is called thatch or straw....super cool stuff 

Brad_bb

Thatched roof are reeds that are tightly packed and it is effective.  Traditional in England I believe. 
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

witterbound

If your braces are going to be on an outside wall, you can bascially cut a notch in the outside face of the post and beam  for the tenon, then nail it in place.  The nails will never show, it's faster to cut the notch than a mortise IMO, and it will be  faster and easier to get a good fit.  I know that some of the timber frame shops use this method.  Probably not quite as strong, but the engineers I know say they don't take the braces into consideration when doing the engineering.

trailman

theres a old barn in my town all swaying and leaning over. it has undersized braces just nailed inplace with no mortice and tenons. hope i dont get killed if i do her roof this year,b.

barbender

I bet the Vikings loved seeing those thatched roofs, made it hard to resist burning the village :)
Too many irons in the fire

bigshow

Quote from: barbender on April 11, 2012, 11:42:04 AM
I bet the Vikings loved seeing those thatched roofs, made it hard to resist burning the village :)

L0L!!
I never try anything, I just do it.

aliciabrooks

Hi, I am not sure if you have a set of plans or not, but have you shopped around for quotes? They can vary by as much as 40%. If you don't have plans look on the net for them. You may find something suitable for a few hundred dollars.  Getting a designer will cost you up to a few grand.  Great oaks timber framing sells plans, as well as frames, although the shipping may be somewhat prohibitive.  Not sure.  I saw a nice frame on their website for $22,000. 1800sq.ft.  the plans for it were $359.   As for mortises, I would think any sort of production timber framing company would have a chain mortiser to make cutting precise mortises a minimum time consumer.

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