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gas to electric motor?

Started by xlogger, March 23, 2012, 06:54:58 AM

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xlogger

Well now that I finally got my sawmill going and busy I got a complaint from my neighbor threw the woods about 150 yds away from the mill. The noise from the gas engine. My first idea that come to mind was to show him the property line but I said I'd look into what I can do. I'm not sure what the county would say if he call me in. My land is in farm zone and I'm under farm tax here. But maybe to keep the peace how many HP electric motor would it take to run a TK2000 and what electric would I need if any one of you knows? This I know would stop me from doing any portable sawing, but I really don't plan on doing any. My mill would be about 175 ft from my breaker box in the house. By the way I've been sawing here for going on 3 years now and he just moved in about 6 months ago.
Timberking 2000, Turbo slabber Mill, 584 Case, Bobcat 773, solar kiln, Nyle L-53 DH kiln

Ianab

I see the TK2000 has the option of a 20hp Electric, so that's the sort of power your are looking at.

Fitting / adapting a better muffler to the engine could reduce the noise and be a much cheaper option? It might be enough to appease the neighbour if it was 5db quieter?

Ian

Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Bibbyman

A call into TimberKing would be your best investment as they likely can or have produced the same mill in electric and could advise you on the conversion and maybe even supply you with a kit of sorts to swap out the engine.

I'm not sure what HP range your thinking but most likely it'll need to be 3 phase and you most likely don't have 3 phase power to your house.

Some places you can get 3 phase service at little to no cost.  Other power companies, like the one we're on, what a totally ridiculous amount to provide 3 phase power.  There is an alternative and that is to use a phase converter - talked about a number of times here on the Forum.  We've been using one for over 10 years on our mill and other 3 phase equipment.

Another thing to look into is to have another meter base set up near your mill.  Two advantages,  one is if you're doing this a business,  it's easy to count that electric use as a business expense.  The second it the 170' from the house is going to be a lot of cable to run.  If they meter was right outside your sawshed, they're would be much less expense.  Also,  you may need a bigger transformer and higher amperage service than you may have now servicing your home.

It may be a lot cheaper in the long run to look into some quieter mufflers, maybe box in the sawshed, or become better friends with your neighbor.  Maybe invite him over and do some sawing with him or even for him – maybe build a tall privacy fence.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

xlogger

Wonder where I be best to start looking at a muffler, I was thinking about that before but I was just wondering on the electric. My 34 hp motor sure burns some gas in a days time. A 8 hour day and I'm sure I burn 10 gallons of gas.
Timberking 2000, Turbo slabber Mill, 584 Case, Bobcat 773, solar kiln, Nyle L-53 DH kiln

thecfarm

I was thinking of a fence too. But a muffler might help too. Go over and complain about his lawn mower when he mowing.  :D   Just kidding,but you know what I mean.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

xlogger

Not sure a fence would do any good, he can't really see my mill from his house and my property line is about 200 ft from the mill. As far as boxing in the mill, that would be fine other than I can't bring logs and I really like to look around while sawing. I'll call TK today to see what they say about a muffler and what phase electric I would have to have. Boy I wish he would move back to Fl not to wish any bad luck on you guys in Fl. My last neighbor said he didn't any problem with the mill.
Timberking 2000, Turbo slabber Mill, 584 Case, Bobcat 773, solar kiln, Nyle L-53 DH kiln

Bibbyman

I don't see where a engine on a mill would be any louder than a large lawn mower. The neighbors across the valley is always mowing with a big zero turn mower that sounds like a Sesna airplane. Big ATVs and trail bikes make a lot more noise.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

thecfarm

What we meant by a fence is a solid board one to stop the noise. Or slow it down is what I mean. Just like a line of trees between a busy road and a house. it just helps to deaden the noise.

By the way how many hours a day are you sawing, or I should say how many hours a day is the blade into the wood? A motor at idle should not make much noise.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Larry

I try to only saw on week days when neighbors are at work, hoping to avoid any noise complaints.

If ya find a better muffler let us know.  I not to fond of that noisy smelly motor myself.  And my machine uses about the same amount of gas or a bit more. :(

I would have been electric if my power company would have allowed it.  They have a rule in there terms of service to keep folks from running big electric motors.  I would hate to have my electric turned off...might miss Survivor. ???
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

xlogger

I just do it part time, I looked at my hour gauge last night and I'm averaging 25 hours a month. But it is picking up more and more each month.
Timberking 2000, Turbo slabber Mill, 584 Case, Bobcat 773, solar kiln, Nyle L-53 DH kiln

thecfarm

So it's not like 8 hours a day than.  ::)  Some people just like to complain because they can.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

jdonovan

Quote from: xlogger on March 23, 2012, 06:54:58 AM
But maybe to keep the peace how many HP electric motor would it take to run a TK2000 and what electric would I need if any one of you knows?

At least 20HP 3-phase.

That will require a phase converter, that is larger than 20HP to be able to start the motor. You are probably looking at $3000-$5000 for a converter and install. More if you are a long run from where your main panel is.

Also you're probably looking at needing to feed that converter 150+ amps, which if you are on a 200amp service is probably a no-go given other household loads. Rural areas often have electric companies that limit the size of a motor you are allowed to run because of the impact it can cause to the neighbors. Flickering lights, voltage sags etc...

Assuming the engine/muffler on the TK is similar to the woodmizer, you should be down to about 70Db at 200' from the mill. This noise level is generally acceptable at the property line even in a RESIDENTIAL area.

I'd do some homework with the county and find out if there are any regulations against you sawing there. If there are, then you're going to have to get VERY accommodating to this neighbor, OR get right with the rules/regs the county has.

Many 'ag' zoned areas have notes in the zoning laws that say the preferred use for this area is ag, and non-ag uses have to accept noise/smells/disturbance from 'reasonable and customary practices'. That might provide you some protection. Imagine the person who moves in next to a farm, and then complains about the dust from plowing in the spring. Or the noise from getting a hay crop bailed late at night because of an approaching rain storm.

IMO if this neighbor is complaining about a 65-70 Db noise outside his home, then nothing short of zero noise is going to make him happy.

When you move to the country, it comes with certain pluses and minuses... if you want quiet suburban living in a tightly controlled HOA... then move back to the F'n suburbs.

Axe Handle Hound

I think you were right to suggest you would see what you could do, but I wouldn't put myself out finanically or otherwise if I were you.  If you're zoned agricultural he's getting off easy.  You could be running a big diesel tractor up and down the property line tilling fields.  I'm with the other guys that suggested a fence, but I wouldn't put it on my property where I didn't want it.  I would suggest to the neighbor that I will supply him with the boards if he builds the fence on his side of the line.  More than just blocking noise, it will block his view and that will probably help a great deal.  Nosey neighbors often complain about what they can see (I don't like that trator parked in your yard, when are you going to paint that shed, that compost pile is ugly....).   If he refuses just tell him the offer stands, document that you tried, and keep on doing what you do. 

Hilltop366

I'm not sure which way the exhaust is pointing, but if it was possible to extend the end of the exhaust and point it away from the neighbour, it might help, or get an old loader with a Detroit diesel to load the logs so when you shut the loader off he would think that saw mill is quiet.

pineywoods

I find this one small advantage to the liquid cooled kawasaki engine I put on my lt40. Liquid cooled engines are by nature quieter than air-cooled, assuming a decent muffler, which the kaw has. I can actually hear the blade in the wood.

A big problem with electric is weight. a 20 hp electric motor is HEAVY. The head lift mechanics would need some help...
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

beenthere

QuoteI'm not sure what the county would say if he call me in.

If me, I'd explore what the county might say before the neighbor calls it in. From your comment, sounds like you might be aware of an ordinance or zoning law that might not be in your favor.
Do you know of anything?

If nothing, I'd also look at improving the muffler and being aware of the time of day the mill runs. Good luck.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Woodchuck53

A neighbor had a fellow down the road complain of noise. He got a meter and measured his at the line for a few days and recorded. Then when his neighbor was mowing measured his at the line. He showed the results to his neighbor and remarked how he likes the way he keeps his yard nice and mowed often. They agreed that there wasn't really an issue after all.
Case 1030 w/ Ford FEL, NH 3930 w/Ford FEL, Ford 801 backhoe/loader, TMC 4000# forklift, Stihl 090G-60" bar, 039AV, and 038, Corley 52" circle saw, 15" AMT planer Corley edger, F-350 1 ton, Ford 8000, 20' deck for loader and hauling, F-800 40' bucket truck, C60 Chevy 6 yd. dump truck.

Al_Smith

Quote from: xlogger on March 23, 2012, 06:54:58 AM
   I've been sawing here for going on 3 years now and he just moved in about 6 months ago.
Well I know what I would do ---- >:(

xlogger

I called TK today and they said like some of you said about needing 3 phase and suggested not using a converter, so getting 3 phase if out of the question. I think I'm going with the fence, I'd like the idea of him not being able to see anything here. I called my friend that owns a small engine shop and he going to call around and look for a muffler that not as loud. In the mean time I'm running the mill ;D
Timberking 2000, Turbo slabber Mill, 584 Case, Bobcat 773, solar kiln, Nyle L-53 DH kiln

5quarter

I'm with you Al... Same type of people build a house next to a feed lot then complain about the smell.  :-\
What is this leisure time of which you speak?
Blue Harbor Refinishing

Al_Smith

We had the same problem here .This hoity toit built a house right next to a cabinet shop then whined like a broke D-- dog about the dust collector noise .She raised a fuss about the hog farmers too .All the while her place looks like a junk yard imagine that .

bandmiller2

Logger,my bandmill used to have a two cly. wisconsin I made an add on muffler that fit on the old mufflers outlet much quieter.Also I would build an open front shed to protect you and your mill, solid back to the neighbor. Mayby you could have Al. stop by to smooth things over. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Al_Smith

I'm the last person he wants to do PR. I'd show them where the bear wee wee'd in the woods . ;D

There's a solution .Make a curtain out of rolled insulation or buy a sound curtain .To stop sound dissipation you have to have a sound impedence mismatch .The noise would go through the air and hit the sound curtain which would about kill most of it .--old submarine sonar tech here -- ;)

I could elaborate at great lengths about sound but rather than boar everyone to tears I'll just say it's all on the internet .

Seriously we use sound barriers at work on the machines and that's exactly how they work .Besides unless you are a junk yard dog like some of us it would cost a kings ransome to buy the goodies and wire it up .

eastberkshirecustoms

I'd probably look into putting a Detroit on it and let it scream. See, how he likes that! But that's me. Out here in my weeds we've had too many of the 'city folk' move in and want all their 'city folk' laws. What happened to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

CLL

I try to be a good neighbor but sometimes it can get to the BITE ME point and I think that would be the case very quick with your problem.
Too much work-not enough pay.

Ianab

Another thought, is the Guy otherwise reasonable? If you go see him and tell him you are going to fit a 2nd muffler on the mill and put an extra wall /fence to block the noise in his direction, that will REDUCE the noise, will he be happy?

Or is he the type that wont be happy if he can even hear, see, smell... a sawmill?

That makes a big difference. Spending a lot of effort to appease him, if he's still not going to be happy, is sort of a waste of time.

Other thing is, what are the actual regulations in your area? If there are any, then you taking measures to reduce the noise may help you avoid them?

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

xlogger

I called him and left him a message on his phone that I was looking into getting another muffler and also maybe a solid fence along our property line.
Where the mill is and his house located it would have to be a tall fence and I know I will not built one that tall, maybe 20 ft to block any noise or view, his home is up hill from the mill. He really can't see the mill anyways from his home with a clear view. He didn't call back. I talked to a guy that says he has a agri zone like I do and he says the man can't stop me from running my mill. He sounds like he knows what he talking about. The rest of my neighbors are all country people and don't care, except this man that came from a gated community from FL. If he says anything else I'm agreeing with CLL in the post above you.
Timberking 2000, Turbo slabber Mill, 584 Case, Bobcat 773, solar kiln, Nyle L-53 DH kiln

Ianab

Common problem here too.

City folks "move to the country" for the peace and quiet. Then complain that someone is up at 5 am with farm bikes and dogs,  getting cows in to milk....

Welcome to the country...

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

John Mc

One of the better muffler upgrades out there is the Super Trapp. You would probably want the model 5s with the optional resonator.

Check them out at this site:
http://www.jackssmallengines.com/strapmain.cfm

And here's a page with some comparison noise reduction ratings (closest engine they have to yours is a 14 HP Kohler):
http://www.jackssmallengines.com/strapmod.cfm

Not cheap as mufflers go, but effective, and a whole lot cheaper than switching to an electric motor.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

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