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My first lumber order

Started by lyle niemi, March 15, 2012, 08:11:43 PM

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lyle niemi

A fella just phoned me and needs prices for a million board feet of 6x6x14. My jaw dropped to the floor! He said he can bring me the logs asd asked what I would charge to do the work. I didnt know what to tell him, I said I would check into it. What would a person charge for this kind of work ???

learydeere


NMFP

That is almost just enough information to be dangerous.  There are many questions to ask such as:
how often will he deliver logs
how often does he want to pick up
what species is it
what diameter logs will he provide
how clean will the logs be
what are they used for
how fast can you turn one log into a 6x6
do you saw with a circle mill or band
if band, how often will you need to change bands
how much fuel will you use
any specific packaging requirements
who is doing the work now
why are they not going to be doing it
what are the payment terms
and the list goes on and on.

Over my years in the lumber, sawmill and millwork business, I have always used these types of requests as flags that something could possibly be wrong.

Ask more and more questions upfront before you are committed without any way of recovery.  let us know your thoughts and ideas.

lyle niemi

Those are all good points you made for sure, would there be an average price per thousand a person could go by???

ladylake

 Also what to do with all the side lumber.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Ron Wenrich

A few questions.  What happens to the side cuts?  What happens to the slabs?  What sort of time frame is he looking at?  Those get to be important.

You're going to have to know your costs and your production capacity.  I believe you're running a circle mill.  I believe its a manual mill.  Being that you're from Alberta, I'm going to assume you're talking softwoods or soft hardwoods.  Size will play a factor, but you should be able to run a log through the mill every 3-5 minutes.  That leaves enough time to roll logs in and to set your dogs and tapers.  At that rate, you will cut 12 every hour.  You will also have a few side cuts.  Your production rate ends up being about 500 bf for the 6x6s, plus the side cuts.  Depending on log size, you may have a couple 100 more feet.  That is figuring 5 min/log.

You then have to figure up your costs.  That would include fuel, bits, maintenance costs, labor (include yours), rent, insurance, equipment costs, etc.  You should have at least 2 more guys to have an efficient operation.  One to off bearer and edge, one to stack and keep lumber out of the mill and logs in the mill.

When you do your numbers, figure that you'll have 1-2 hours of non production per day due to blade sharpening, equipment repairs, log loading or unloading, and other unexpected things.  Do your daily costs and divide by your daily production to come up with a number.  Figure in your profit margin. 

Things get a little more complicated when you have to figure in the boards and what to do with them.  They can be used against the sawing costs if you have a market.  Same goes for the waste material, but I would look at that more as a disposal fee than to use against your sawing.  Get money up front. 

There is no magical answer as to price/Mbf.  Each operation is different.  What I charge would be different from yours since my production capacity and costs are very much different from yours.  It helps to know your competition.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

sealark37

That amounts to a little less than 24,000 cants @ 6x6x14 each.  You need a lot more information concerning the details of how fast you get the logs and how fast he needs the cants.  The most important detail is when he pays.  I suggest a modest deposit before you begin sawing, and settling every week or two at the most.  Regards, Clark

Nomad

     If I were brand new and somebody came to me with an offer like that, first I'd drool.  Then I'd have more flags going up than the Fourth of July.  Tread very, very carefully there! 
     The other guys all made good points.First thing I'd do is find out this guy's credentials and his business record.  Then I'd find out more about his  credentials and his business record.  He might be for real.  Or he might be looking for a quick profit by getting everything you can give and giving you nothing.  If it sounds too good to be true, it most likely ain't true.
Buying a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter
WoodMizer LT50HDD51-WR
Lucas DSM23-19

hamish

How much will you charge me to cut four 2"x6"x16' out of a white pine 10" DIBx8'?

I would walk away, too many variables especially to a new sawyer.
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plowboyswr

I'll throw my two cents in you also need to know how logs will be delivered and the volume of the lumber is to be shipped out. Is your log lot capable of handling that volume? Support equipment?
Just an ole farm boy takin one day at a time.
Steve

WDH

Cutting lumber on a big scale is a great way to go broke.  The wholesale lumber business is cutt-throat.  Be on your P's and Q's.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

morgoon

Man I don't know

Taking chances is one thing but something doesn't sound right somewhere

Maybe work the question backwards

How much do you cut right now, how much would you have to stretch yourself to meet those numbers

I would saw on small contract first.. Try cutting 5000 bf ( for example), then get paid. You can always cut 20 000 next round and so on.

You would get an idea his log supply and business practices

Don't sign anything until you have known variables asked and answered through small risk experience

Just my .02
Homemade bandsaw, made by my mentor and dear friend Unto...who turned 85 this year

And I just made my first longbow...awesome

beenthere

I used to hear numerous horror stories with tie buyers, that would size up a small mill in good hardwood country and make out a contract with the mill owner. The contract would be a certain price if a certain quantity (volume) of ties was supplied per day (or week). The tie buyer knew just about what a mill could turn out and would write that contract to just meet the max.

Didn't allow any wiggle room for other sawing and boiled down to veneer oak logs being turned into good ties just to meet the contracts demand.

The tie buyers knew how to hold the sawmillers feet to the fire and keep the production of ties at full tilt.

So be cautious, as suggested.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

lyle niemi

Thats all some very good advice. I will be getting more info early next week. PS I have been running a oilfield construction business for over twenty years. I have had cats, backhoes, trackhoes and gravel trucks and a few other things. I have learned that if you dont take a risk some times, you will never get ahead. All I can do is cross my fingers and hope for the best 8)

Bogue Chitto

You need to ask your self why is this fellow coming to me with such a big order?  I am new at this, there is a lot more experienced sawers than me?  Check in to him might be a scam.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

What ever deal I make, whether it sounds fishy, or even if I know the customer is a "shady" character....I have a personal rule: Not one stick of lumber, EVER, leaves my lot until it is paid for in full!

I stick to this rule if I'm sawing 1 log or 1000 logs.

The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

snowshoveler

I don't know enough about sawmills to offer any advice except this.
You have an ace up your sleeve. This Forum can provide you with just about all the info you need.
These folks have already been there and done the same thing.
The fact that you don't mind asking a question or 2 and that you get great answers
will only help you.
Keep asking and keep reading.
Regards Chris
International T5 dozer
JD M tractor
MF skidloader
Jonsered chainmill
Vintage Belsaw

red oaks lumber

watch out!
if it seems to good to be true, it probbably is.
watch out!
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

lyle niemi

I got more info on that lumber order, the guy who phoned didnt know all the facts yet. I phoned the company this morning and found out that they use that amount of timbers every year. They have a few small mills that supply them all the time. The boss that I talked to said that they would buy what ever I could saw up once we agree on a price. Thats still not a bad deal and it takes alot of pressure off. I might have jumped the gun buy posting this last night.LOL I just got a little excited about the order I guess. Not all was lost tho, you guys gave me alot of valuble info to think about. Now I got to post some pics of what I did to the mill today 8)

colinofthewoods

Did you find out what they need all the wood for ?  Is it oilpatch related ?

Magicman

I got a call about two months ago from a guy in Tennessee wanting 100,000 ties.  I quickly referred him to a local commercial mill.  Turns out he was trying to make a bid on a large job and was wanting a guaranteed cut throat price.   :-\
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

lyle niemi

Quote from: Magicman on March 17, 2012, 08:53:13 AM
I got a call about two months ago from a guy in Tennessee wanting 100,000 ties.  I quickly referred him to a local commercial mill.  Turns out he was trying to make a bid on a large job and was wanting a guaranteed cut throat price.   :-\
Being in the construction business I had many of them calls myself. I guess the only garrantee is when the cheque is in your hand...lol

Meadows Miller

Gday

Sounds like it could be a good deal Lyle and a million Bft a year is nothing to scoff at as its still $2 to $300000 worth of work for the year if your sawing their logs  plus it sounds like it will be consistent work unlike some large one of deal Mate ;) ;D ;D

Regards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

terrifictimbersllc

Also need to take into account you might be sick at the sight of wood before it's over.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

customsawyer

There is lots to consider on this one. If he is already dealing with some other small mills and only wants what you can produce then it might work. I would be careful though as this guy should be able to go to a big mill and buy these for a very cheap price. This would be one of the biggest red flags for me. I know there are times I can go to a SYP mill near me and buy 2X6X16 kiln dried cheaper than I can buy the logs. This is due to the volume that the produce. The big mills in your neck of the woods produce even more than the big mills down here do. If you can find some of the other mills that he gets to cut for him and go talk to them. Don't go in as a competitor but as a friend.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

Overlength

Big numbers are often thrown around by some in the wholesale lumber, looking for you to offer your lowest possible bare minimum quote. Then the actual order can turn out much smaller.  A million bf is big, but not uncommon. Just one large commercial mill can produce 250,000 bf or more in a day of softwoods.
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