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Milling on Shares?

Started by EastTexan, March 15, 2012, 03:00:46 PM

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EastTexan

Forestry Forumers,
I have several good sized black walnut trees but no mill.  I am considering finding a local portable sawmiller and having the logs sawn for shares of the lumber.
I know there are several considerations, but what are typical shares for milling delivered logs?  Walnut, cherry, red oak being higher value might go for lower percentage share?

beenthere

Welcome to the forum.

If you want to mill on shares, you'll need to find an operator who wants lumber instead of money.

Also, decide how you would want your "share" sorted. I'd suggest sorting logs, but then size and quality will need to be decided.

What is the motivation for doing this on shares? Lack of money to pay for milling, don't have a need for all the lumber, and/or can't sell all the lumber that is left after meeting your needs?

Just curious, but think paying to have the logs sawn and then dealing with the lumber yourself would be the best option for you.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Overlength

I'm to far from you, otherwise I would make an offer. Would depend on quality of logs = value. Higher value, higher % for you. If you are delivering to the mill if I read you right, that makes it a lot easier for mill. just a number to throw out there that is not uncommon for good grade /value logs delivered can be a 50,50 split to start with.
Woodmizer LT30, Solar Kiln 400 bf

Buck

Just my 2 cents. Have the lumber sawed. This area will cost you 300-350 per thousand. Or around 50 per hour. You should have much more value in lumber. Local lumber yard had oak 1x12 at around 4 dollars a ft yesterday. I don't have any idea what current prices are for walnut and cherry.

That oak price was dried and planed
Respect is earned. Honesty is appreciated. Trust is gained. Loyalty is returned.

Live....like someone left the gate open

Overlength

By all means have it all sawn up for you if you plan on marketing all of it and paying up front for sawing. But don't go by pricing of S4S wide stock you see at the retail yard. The log has a long way to go before it gets to that.Which is all clear, kiln dried, S4S moulded, all splits ends defected out. Add 50-75% loss just for that. And then shipped and warehoused to a distributor, then shipped the the local lumber yard. Add another 40-50%. You will probably get less than 2% of your boards that might have a chance to make that grade to start with. Go by what you can go to a local green mill and by some mill run rough green lumber for. Compare pricing from several local mills. That is what your lumber will be worth after you store it proper and develop a customer base.
Woodmizer LT30, Solar Kiln 400 bf

tcsmpsi

Most hardwoods  and ERC I cut on halves.  I give an estimate on what wood and how much to look for.
\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

zopi

to, alot of sawyers do not like to saw on shares, profitablilty is low, so guys who stay busy cutting for cash are not likely to pick that up..then they have the additional overhead of storing, drying processing and disposing of the lumber..guys with sawmills usually have more bloody lumber than they know what to do with...
best bet, as mentioned above is to pay to have the lumber milled then do with it what you will. OR..find a hobby sawyer who cuts for himself ad a little on the side...I would jump on it, as I would love to have some walnut to play with...and walnut sawdust for my ditch banks..try getting ahold of the sawmill manufacturers, they typically have lists of who owns what mill in your area...you may have best luck with Woodmaster...as they are manufactured in Tejas.
Got Wood?
LT-15G GO chassis added.
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And lots of junk.

Overlength

Some mills that buy logs to cut for lumber for sale, and or use some for their own manufacturing are willing to just split 50/50 to cut more or less.  No need to make it into rocket science at first until you get into 10's of 1000's of bf. If you have that much, you can make adjustments and work with mill as you go. You and the mill will be learning what your logs from your area yield over time. Some Oak, and Walnut in your area isn't the best color, which effects price greatly in the cabinet and furniture industry. And some is better. A lot of Oak there in your area is run into road boards for the oil field. 60 cents+ BF solid nice boards, so nothing to get rich. But it is something.
Woodmizer LT30, Solar Kiln 400 bf

Larry

Welcome EastTexan...I've hunted some down that way.  Big QDM deer and hogs.

I like to saw walnut, cherry, and cedar on 50/50 shares.  Not so much other species.  I mostly use the lumber myself.  Walnut is a looser most times if the sawyer tries to resell.  Buyers turn up there nose at sapwood and low grade, than want a bargain on the high grade.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

tcsmpsi

Some of the hardwood I sell, some I use.  I hoard all the cedar I can.   :D  The hardwoods and cedar are worth more to me as project lumber than.  It doesn't have to be 'real pretty' to make unique paneling, etc.

Anyhow, I'm in Livingston and I do mill on shares, only at 50/50.  It evens out (good/not so good)  Anyone ever done that with me, have always been back.

Afraid you'll have to take your sweetgum to Georgia, though.   :D
\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

Buck

Yeah, dont even slow down till ya get there :D
Respect is earned. Honesty is appreciated. Trust is gained. Loyalty is returned.

Live....like someone left the gate open

WDH

Quote from: tcsmpsi on March 15, 2012, 07:39:07 PM
Afraid you'll have to take your sweetgum to Georgia, though.   :D

Oh no!!!!  Magicman in Mississippi is the Sweetgum Whisperer  :D.  Also, that is a lot closer to Texas  ;D.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

MHineman

  I don't know what Walnut is like in Texas.  In Indiana we have about as good as it gets.  Since the quality and size of the logs are key, I'd suggest doing as beenthere says and sort the logs into yours and mine piles before starting.  If you can't come to an agreement, then either pay the going rate for all the lumber or try a different sawyer.
  Even if I planned to cut my share of your logs, I'd likely pick up the logs and saw them at home.  Right now I'd be more likely to sell the logs as they are bringing a good price now.
1999 WM LT40, 40 hp 4WD tractor, homemade forks, grapple, Walenstein FX90 skidding winch, Stihl 460 039 saws,  homebuilt kiln, ......

Kansas

The way we have done it in the past is buy the excess logs and charge to cut the logs a customer wants milled up.

tcsmpsi

East Texas is not generally known for its walnut quality.  Also, I believe I denote a contrast in what "several" is likely to be.

EastTexan, have you contacted Herman or Ed at LogMaster there in Nacogdoches?  They would likely have a comprehensive knowledge of mills in the area. 

What I deal with, on halves, is most always no more than a common 16' trailer load.   Some good, some not so good.
Very rarely, very good.

Couple years ago, a fellow I had cut some cedar for, on halves, said he had a "huge" hickory to bring, and denoted its size to me.  Well, when the fellows showed up with it, he was even a little conservative on the size.  Two logs was a overloaded trailer's worth.

But, it was cottonwood.   Well, the hands didn't know what to do, so I went ahead and unloaded them.  And, to be thorough, I even whittled one down small enough to mill, and milled half of one into different dimensions...just to see what 'value' it might have.  Only thing I ever milled that dried more dissappointingly than sweetgum.    :D
\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

EastTexan

As I suspected... full of information.  Thanks, gentlemen.
Just thought I could get some logs milled with nothing out of pocket.  Didn't really consider paying up front then marketing lumber, but will have to look into it.
I know of the Logmaster guy up here. Will get by there and say hi.
Sweetgum is a dirty word in my book.  Got more 3-8" gums than I can shake a stick at.  You say Magicman will buy 'em?
Thanks again.

WDH

Magicman maintains a relationship with sweetgum  :).
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

texbob

I am in Nacogdoches and might be interested in working with you on that walnut. Let me know.

tcsmpsi

I guess they musta finally got some computers shipped up there in that north country.

Welcome, gentlemen!!   ;D
\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

texbob

Sweet gum, magicman knows the good stuff.

WDH

I know where there are some fine old walnuts in East Texas  :).  I seed them with my own eyes.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

tcsmpsi

\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

WDH

You know where.  You have been close.  The time that we went there, I had not "discovered" them yet  :).
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Magicman

Good morning, EastTexan, and Welcome to the Forestry Forum.   :)

I hates Sweetgum. 
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

WDH

Quote from: WDH on March 16, 2012, 09:18:48 AM
Magicman maintains a relationship with sweetgum  :).

See, I told y'all  :D.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

tcsmpsi

Quote from: WDH on March 17, 2012, 07:54:15 AM
You know where.  You have been close.  The time that we went there, I had not "discovered" them yet  :).

Those are, exceptions.   ;D
\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

EastTexan

txbob, do you run a sawmill down here?  whereabouts?

sawmillhand

I Run a MIll on Toledobend Lake. If your Interested.
1990 woodmizer LT40 Hyd  2004 Ford F350 Flatbed. Plenty of tractors.

customsawyer

You be careful Danny. I remember a time when some one talked about pecan and then the next thing I knew I got talked into the pecan project.  :D You guys will have to wait for the sweetgum project. ;D
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

WDH

The Sweetgum Project will be challenging, and we will likely need an expert in sweetgum.  So, we will call Magican  :D.  He maintains a special relationship with sweetgum  ;D.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Magicman

I'll do the "Chickin Crispin" while you do the Sweetgum.  Then we finish, I'll have Chickin and you have Sweetgum.  I hates Sweetgum.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Okrafarmer

Uh-oh, do I detect more Sweetgummery afoot? Now PostonLT40 is the liquidamber lover around here. He especially likes to use it for siding on sheds. His Sweetgummery is superb.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Okrafarmer

Quote from: Magicman on March 18, 2012, 11:31:01 PM
I'll do the "Chickin Crispin" while you do the Sweetgum.  Then we finish, I'll have Chickin and you have Sweetgum.  I hates Sweetgum.

When is that Chickin Crispin, Magic? I'll come and make the hog sausage gumbo. And I won't interfere with anybody who wishes to participate in Sweetgummery, but it isn't real fun for me.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Okrafarmer

Anybody who brings walnut to me, I would probably be willing to mill it on the halves, as long as it is semi-decent stuff.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Magicman

Quote from: Okrafarmer on March 19, 2012, 01:20:10 AM
When is that Chickin Crispin, Magic?

Don't know yet, but I will announce it in plenty of time.   digin1 digin_2
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

CalebL

Quote from: Larry on March 15, 2012, 07:27:00 PM
Welcome EastTexan...I've hunted some down that way.  Big QDM deer and hogs.

I like to saw walnut, cherry, and cedar on 50/50 shares.  Not so much other species.  I mostly use the lumber myself.  Walnut is a looser most times if the sawyer tries to resell.  Buyers turn up there nose at sapwood and low grade, than want a bargain on the high grade.

To add to what Larry said, I also cut on 50/50 shares when I do this.  I do almost all of my cutting on the customers location.  So after I pull the mill there, cut it, pull the mill back, pull my trailer over there, load the lumber, pull it back to my house, unload and sticker the lumber, and then sell it, I don't figure I make much for all my effort. 

I am more willing to cut on shares if the customer brings the logs to me.  If they are able to do that, I will also take less of a percentage of the lumber.  I also like the customer to stay through out the process of milling on shares (this way I get him to offload  :D) so that he knows exactly what I get and he gets.  I cut on shares for one guy and he thought I took more of the higher quality lumber than he got.  So, I have them stay now and they can see exactly what they are getting.
2005 LT40 HDD34
2000 Cat 226 Skid Loader

texbob

The mill belongs to my neighbor, we are what I call hobby sawers. He bought the mill about 3 years ago. We cut lumber to build us each a shop and our project wood. Pine, oak, sweetgum. I love sweetgum. Dont have the support equpment to do much. I sure do like it though, but I also don't want a full time job.
Texbob

Indiana Robinson

What I have not seen mentioned in this discussion on cutting on shares is blade damage from metal in the logs.
Back 20 years ago when I was sawing before I always informed the customer before they dropped the logs off that if a piece of metal in their log damaged my blade that they owned that blade (bandmill)... Note that decent low cost metal detectors were not so common back then.
Band blades were fairly cheap then. I believe I was paying about $13 for blades for my Kasco mill from Langsenkamp (sp?) Saw Works in Indianapolis at that time. They are long gone now.
I typically only charged the customer $10 for a blade, after all it was always a used blade. If the blade was already getting badly worn I usually didn't charge for it.
I was a little surprised at how few blades got damaged even though it had cut through a nail. I buzzed through a lot of lead bullets but they were softer than some of the wood.

I was once watching a circle mill demo at an old tractor show and all 4 guys doing the demo were absolutely freaking out over finding a lead .22 slug in a log. I never understood the big deal. I would expect more possible damage from a hard knot.  ;D

Anywho, how do most of you handle blade damage when cutting on shares?

One of the biggest problems I had back then was folks bringing crooked 7' X 4" logs and wanting me to cut straight 8' X 4" X 4"s out of them.  ;D


.
Lifetime farmer.
Lifetime sawdust lover.
Old Tractor lover.
Have worn a lot of hats.
Once owned a Kasco mill that would saw a 30"x24' log. Now a new little LT-10 Woodmizer for my own lumber.
And yes, my woodshop is seriously infested with Shopsmiths.
Old geezer trying hard not to be one. :-)

Dave VH

I've milled for half the lumber a couple of times.  I'm pretty much a hobby miller.  The customer brought me the logs, and paid for any blades that I went through, then we split the lumber.  I also got to keep the cants and sawdust.  I was happy, i think that he was happy, he still comes back.
I cut it twice and it's still too short

Sam H

Hey Larry how do you like your 2000? Iv had quite a few problems with mine.
In between mills. Cook edger and cat claw equipment

Larry

Welcome Sam H.  This is a great place to make friends and learn new things.

If your having mill trouble you might start a new thread to attract a bit more attention.  There's getting to be
quite a few of us with 2000's that might be able to help with your problems.

I'm happy with my mill but I have worked through a few problems...some were with the operator. :o :o
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

boman1

Where you from Eastexas? Im from Silsbee Tx....I would be willing to saw on halves with you...if we are close enough. Let me know if interested.

Dodgy Loner

Quote from: Magicman on March 19, 2012, 10:13:03 AM
Quote from: Okrafarmer on March 19, 2012, 01:20:10 AM
When is that Chickin Crispin, Magic?

Don't know yet, but I will announce it in plenty of time.   digin1 digin_2

Georgia and Ole Miss play in 9 hours away in Athens this year, so if you schedule it that weekend again, I will be at the Chickin Crispin instead of a football game ;D.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Dave VH

I cut it twice and it's still too short

Magicman

Quote from: Dodgy Loner on May 30, 2012, 05:49:27 PM
I will be at the Chickin Crispin instead of a football game ;D. 

Hopefully we can make it work this year for you (and your family).   :)
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Okrafarmer

I found a guy who will mill on the shares, so I think we might take him all our cherry, since I can't mill enough of it at one time to dry it properly together.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Magicman

How much Cherry do you have and how slow do you saw  ???
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Okrafarmer

I generally can't manage to saw more than 3 logs a day, and I have about 15-20 logs stacked up. My slowness is a combination of a multitude of factors, including that I can rarely devote all day to milling. Also, I rarely get a week where I could do any milling on more than about 2-3 days.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

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