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buying sharpening equipment vs resharp service

Started by bruce29, March 12, 2012, 09:02:32 PM

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bruce29

I am just putting the finishing touches on my sawmill and about to start cutting . I am trying to decide on either buying sharpener & setter vs having a resharp service sharpen my blades. I am not real familiar with many blade companies. I was leaning towards cooks or either woodmizer as far as buying blades & having them resharpened. I would like to hear pros & cons  and opinions on having someone else sharpen  or sharpening my own blades. The financial part is a concern , but I dont know how time consuming it is to sharpen & set blades vs paying someone else, and just sawing.My sawing will be mainly for my on use & a small amount of resale. Are there different  blade manufactures  worth looking at?  thanks!!!!

POSTON WIDEHEAD

There are different blade manufactures and there are different opinions....TONS of opinions.

I use WOODMIZER blades and use their re-sharp service. They can inspect each blade I send back and replace it if need be. They know more about blades than me....So I let them earn my money. And in return, I get a box back full of sharp blades. I just keep on sawing.  8)

I would rather be sawing than sharping.

I am HAPPY.  smiley_blue_bounce
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

bandmiller2

Bruce,if your just dubbing around doing your own and a little extra for cash,probibly resharp makes more sence.If your going to do alot of milling and your the type that likes to fiddle with things and an independent cuss get yourself the sharpening equipment.Myself I built my bandmill and like to do everything in house so I chose to sharpen and set.Its all volume if you cut alot you will payoff the equipment and be ahead. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

zopi

yeah..this it the ford/chevy, stihl/husky, discussion all over....  alot of guys do not want to waste their time sharpening...me I don't like running sawmill in the rain, much, and I got a great deal on my little sharpener...sooo...
WM resharp is a really good deal for what you get...if you do not want to be bothered with managing blades, go resharp, and just give them standing instructions on what to do as far a replacements, etc....very convenient.  I would imagine if I were sawing alot more, I would do it that way..run through a box or two a week and send em off...with another box or two in rotation.
Got Wood?
LT-15G GO chassis added.
WM sharpener and setter
And lots of junk.

Magicman

That is simply a personal decision that each of us make.  The answer is as different as the reasons for each of our decisions.  Balance the cost of the machine plus your time against about $10 per blade sharpening.  Determine how many that you estimate that you will use to determine the payback time.

WM for example will not sharpen other manufacturer's blades so take that into consideration when buying blades.

There is a very long thread where longtime member Bibbyman converted over to sharpening his own last year.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

hackberry jake

I was lucky to get into a sharpener for pretty cheap and built my own setter. I sent off one batch of 10 bands before I found my sharpener and I wouldn't have it any other way. Now I sharpen and set more often which yields a higher quality cut. I'd go broke if I had to pay to have my bands sharpened as often as I sharpen them now. It really doesn't take long to put a band on the sharpener, after I put it on the sharpener and get it going I load another log on the mill and by the time I have to roll the log the band is sharp. $100 saved is $100 earned in my book.
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

MHineman

Quote from: hackberry jake on March 12, 2012, 11:26:26 PM
Now I sharpen and set more often which yields a higher quality cut. I'd go broke if I had to pay to have my bands sharpened as often as I sharpen them now.  $100 saved is $100 earned in my book.
You will be more productive (more bd-ft / hr) with a sharper blade and the blades will end up cutting more lumber before you have to trash them.  Change the blades when it starts to feel a little dull instead of getting "all the sharp out of it" like we all do when paying someone else to sharpen them.
  You'll also be less likely to have wavy boards by changing the blade more often as a dull blade is more likely to be deflected.
1999 WM LT40, 40 hp 4WD tractor, homemade forks, grapple, Walenstein FX90 skidding winch, Stihl 460 039 saws,  homebuilt kiln, ......

ladylake

 
I bought a sharpener-setter when I bought my mill and glad that I did. Lots of good reasons above to own one. The only resaon not to is if you don't saw much or are so busy your don't have time to sharpen and then I think it would pay to own a sharpener and hire a older guy to run it. Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Migal

Quote from: ladylake on March 13, 2012, 07:41:36 AM

I bought a sharpener-setter when I bought my mill and glad that I did. Lots of good reasons above to own one. The only resaon not to is if you don't saw much or are so busy your don't have time to sharpen and then I think it would pay to own a sharpener and hire a older guy to run it. Steve
:D Hay Hay what's this talk about have a Old man run it  8) I'm busy enough! sawing log's  ;)
Stihl learning and picked up my Log Master LM2 Cat 34hp 02 21 12! 230MF+ the toys that go with it! MS361 MS271 Stihl PB500 Echo 48" LogRite 16ft Bass Tracker Pro' Abua Garcia 5600 bait caster, Wood working equipment' Lake Lot never enough time! oh don't forget the fridge with ale! Loving Wife Rebeca

Kansas

A lot of good posts. I tend to lean to the camp that if your just doing it part time, use a resharp service. Once you get sawing, you can see what you are spending a month, and decide whether to make the leap. If you can find a place within driving distance, that would help more. There are a number of sharpening services out there. Some affiliated with their own blades, some not.

customsawyer

When you are first starting out you might be better off to spend that money on some other equipment that can help your mill. I sharpen my own blades and for a few others as well. I milled for more than 4 years before I bought my own sharpening equipment and I am glad that I did. I was able to concentrate on milling and not worry about what I might have been doing wrong to the blades. Remember when most of us start having problems with the mill the first thing we do is swap the blade. This keeps us from making unnecessary adjustments to our mill. There is a learning curve to milling and to sharpening both. I don't think I would like to be trying to learn both at the same time. 
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

FeltzE

IMO, sharpen your own blades! Although if your starting out it is nice to know you are dealing with good properly set and sharpened blades (such as the WM resharp program) But don't kid yourself it isn't cheaper to send them out.

If your cutting yard timber with higher occurance of tramp metal, DEFINITELY sharpen your own. Yes you can charge the cusomer (I do) but still your ahead doing it yourself.

-Cost to resharp (my numbers are old) $6each blade + shipping to and from my total was $8 per blade.
- Cost to sharpen myself.... cost of sharpener plus my labor.
- Number of blades sharpened per hour (minimum of 4) (a $32 value/hr based on other services)

So pay yourself $32/hr to drink coffee and sharpen blades?///??

Advantage to sharpening your own
- Less blades to own (none in transit or at the sharpening service)
- Never waiting for blades to arrive
- Never making a blade last past usefull sharpness
- Easily adjusted set for different spicies or cutting width
- easily set hook angle for different hardness woods
- quick turn on sharpening
- sharpener eventually pays for itself in savings

Disadvantage
- initial cost to buy sharpener
- learning curve to what is right for set and hook to make your sawmill sing


AND FOR YOU GUYS who justify sending them out... by time savings...

- REALLY? come on... it's just another facet of sawmill maintenance, like clean up, grease, fuel, sharpening. You just don't want to do it... and [[THATS OK TOO!]]


:) I did start this with (IMO) didn't I? I can hear the bees buzzing....  8)


POSTON WIDEHEAD

No buzzing here....I would rather send my blades to the re-sharp at Woodmizer.

Every sawyer is different. I saw all day. I quit sawing at 3pm to get my son off the bus and we do homework. :)

If I have any spare time, we play golf, hunt, fish or I'm working with the Forest Service.

I'm just glad WM has a re-sharp program. I just don't have time to re-sharp.

But I do drink coffee while I saw.  :)


The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

MHineman

  I agree with customsawyer about learning to run the mill with blades you know are sharp and have the right set and hook angle for the wood you are cutting.
  Even though I got a sharpener with my mill when I bought it used, I did not start sharpening my own blade right away.  The experience you gain with consistent blades can't be understated.
  Now I sharpen my own blades and I feel the same as FeltzE about making reasonable money by not spending it on resharp.
  I know I do change the blade sooner knowing I don't have to send $10 to resharp to get that blade in use again.  I'm sure I also produce more bd-ft / hr this way too.
1999 WM LT40, 40 hp 4WD tractor, homemade forks, grapple, Walenstein FX90 skidding winch, Stihl 460 039 saws,  homebuilt kiln, ......

bruce29

On average how long would it take to sharpen & set a 208'' blade? Still trying to decide to pay or sharpen my own.

Chuck White

On average it takes me about 15 minutes to set and sharpen a 158" Wood-Mizer blade.

I will typically use 2 blades per day, that is of course unless I hit metal in the log.  But sometimes I will use 3 blades per day, even if I don't hit metal.

I keep 6 blades in rotation in my blade box that goes to the mill with me each day.
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

terrifictimbersllc

Sharpening and setting is a time-consuming nit picking job.  But it pays well maybe $25 an hour or so, but only if you can do it right.  You have to spend about $4000 to be able to do this with the WM shop series CBN grinder/dual setter.   I'd say if you have only a few blades now and then, or if you are sawing so much that you really don't have time to sharpen, then send them out.  You should be able to make more money sawing than sharpening blades.   There are mostly advantages to doing it yourself, except for the time it takes.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on March 14, 2012, 08:19:07 PM
Sharpening and setting is a time-consuming nit picking job.  But it pays well maybe $25 an hour or so, but only if you can do it right.  You have to spend about $4000 to be able to do this with the WM shop series CBN grinder/dual setter.   I'd say if you have only a few blades now and then, or if you are sawing so much that you really don't have time to sharpen, then send them out.  You should be able to make more money sawing than sharpening blades.   There are mostly advantages to doing it yourself, except for the time it takes.

Very GOOD reply!  smiley_thumbsup I agree.
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

ladylake

 
I sharpened 6  150" blades in 45 minutes this morning before i went on a saw job, comes out to $72 a hour at $9 per blade.  I'll take that any day.  I really can't see whats nit picky about running a sharpener, put a blade on, adjust the hieght and how much it hits the face and go do something else for 6 minutes.  Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

zopi

my old sharpener is pretty slow, it takes it awhile to get through two passes of a light grind..but while it is doing that I am usually looking over another blade or tinkering with something that needs it...sort of a parallel process to whatever else I can come up with to do while sharpening...really does not eat much time.
Got Wood?
LT-15G GO chassis added.
WM sharpener and setter
And lots of junk.

jueston

Quote from: hackberry jake on March 12, 2012, 11:26:26 PM
$100 saved is $100 earned in my book.

depending on the taxes you pay on your income then 100 saved is about 150 earned....

Migal

I got my tax number Dang does that mean I have to save more!
Stihl learning and picked up my Log Master LM2 Cat 34hp 02 21 12! 230MF+ the toys that go with it! MS361 MS271 Stihl PB500 Echo 48" LogRite 16ft Bass Tracker Pro' Abua Garcia 5600 bait caster, Wood working equipment' Lake Lot never enough time! oh don't forget the fridge with ale! Loving Wife Rebeca

opticsguy

If you were thinking to buy a band blade sharpener system what would you buy?   I am a casual cutter still on my first two blades, the second blade did not seem to last very long and plan to change out for my next log.  So are we talking $200 for a sharpener?  or $4000?  or?

TK 1220 band mill,  1952 Ford F-2, 1925 Dodge touring, too many telescopes.

hackberry jake

Depends on the type of sharpener. Anywhere from $400 to $3,000 depending on just sharpening the face of the tooth or a high speed, liquid cooled, cbn, production sharpener. I lucked into a used one that falls somewhere in the middle for $100. Just keep ur eyes open
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

Stephen1

I was ready to give up on sharpening my own, It was a large learning curve for dressing the stone and setting, I have it figured now and no problems, in fact I would think if I am cutting clean logs I will not need to sharpen very many blades and will not take very much time. Right now I am cutting reclaimed beams and am averaging 10 blades a day, I would need about 200 blades in rotation with a sharpening service. A huge expense. Now all I all do is cut all day and sharpen all night >:( to try and have enought blades to cut the next day. I had 30 blades whern I started and had to buy 30 and am now around 35 blades. it will be nice to be finish this job.
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

fat olde elf

IMHO, One more time on this somewhat subjective topic. MM and Zopi got the handle on this one.  It is a individual decision.  I started out with a 281 Husky saw and a grandberg Alaska sawmill a long time ago. I had eleven chains in rotation Cost me $33.00 to get them sharpened.  Bought an Italian
chain sharpener. Still use it and sharpen for others. Bought my Cooks MP32 and had an "older" man sharpen my bands.  He taught me how to fold bands and set and sharpened for $4.00. Just before he died I bought a Cooks Cat Claw used on the Sawmill Exchange and got a setter from Cooks.  TOM and my "older" friend helped my a lot. Now they both are gone and I miss them.

I do sharpen and set for others. This is "nit picky" work and I love it. I do a lot of carving and that is "nit picky" work too.  I love it.  You really should do what you love to do.  Say your prayers
Cook's MP-32 saw, MF-35, Several Husky Saws, Too Many Woodworking Tools, 4 PU's, Kind Wife.

terrifictimbersllc

Quote from: ladylake on March 14, 2012, 09:02:49 PM

I sharpened 6  150" blades in 45 minutes this morning before i went on a saw job, comes out to $72 a hour at $9 per blade.  I'll take that any day.  I really can't see whats nit picky about running a sharpener, put a blade on, adjust the hieght and how much it hits the face and go do something else for 6 minutes.  Steve
Not that, but getting the set right and knowing it's right.  At least  for me that is what takes most of the time. Maybe I'm still on the learning curve. If I check only 2 or 3 teeth it goes fast, sort of like vacuuming a room without turning the lights on.   When I check a few more than this I find things aren't always what they seem.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

bandmiller2

What are you resharpers going to do when the price goes up and shipping goes through the roof.?If you sharpen your own you have control.My sharpening equipment has already paid for itself each band now is money in my pocket,or I should say money that never left.Its an investment that will pay dividens but only if your a serious sawyer. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

FeltzE

Terriffictimbers - what are you checking that takes so long?  It takes me less time to set the blade than it does to sharpen one.

I don't even check the actual set with a micrometer (only rarely) any more. Years of using the setter and just looking at the saw cut tells me if I need to run a touch more or less set.  IF I'm running a bunch of oak I can run my set slightly smaller, and wide knotty pine, much wider. 

The concept of having a specific number on the micrometer is a great way to teach someone what the starting point or range of set should be. If I were sharpening for others I suppose I'd check my set so that I can quantify it to the customer but even then only a few seconds.


ladylake

Quote from: FeltzE on March 16, 2012, 08:10:18 AM
Terriffictimbers - what are you checking that takes so long?  It takes me less time to set the blade than it does to sharpen one.

I don't even check the actual set with a micrometer (only rarely) any more. Years of using the setter and just looking at the saw cut tells me if I need to run a touch more or less set.  IF I'm running a bunch of oak I can run my set slightly smaller, and wide knotty pine, much wider. 

The concept of having a specific number on the micrometer is a great way to teach someone what the starting point or range of set should be. If I were sharpening for others I suppose I'd check my set so that I can quantify it to the customer but even then only a few seconds.

I'm in the same boat here,  less time to set than sharpen and a couple of thousands is not going to matter. Setting sure could be nit picky if every blade had to be perfect but mine cut fine without being perfect.    Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Bibbyman

We (I should say I, as Mary has yet to get involved) have been sharpening our blades for two years now.  I'm still pretty conflicted that it's the right thing to do mainly because I hate to sharpen blades. I'd about rather eat a bug.

As to the economics,  if you are only dulling a few blades a year sawing as a hobby, then it's hard to justify the expense of the equipment and the learning curve that goes into getting a blade sharpened right.  If you're running production mode where time is money and you can be making more money with your time by sawing rather than sharpening blades, then paying to have them resharpened is the way to go – and many do.

So..  I don't know when it pays to invest in the equipment and the development of the skills it takes to properly sharpen a blade.  Maybe the guy in-between that saws a lot but still has time left over to mess with sharpening and thinks it fun?

We had a couple hundred old blades that for one reason or another were not worth sending to Wood-Mizer to resharpen.  I used them up last summer and fall.  I still have less than ten old blades yet to go.  Did I save money by using up these blades?  I'm not convinced.  They didn't saw as well or last as long as the blades I get back from Re-Sharp.  All finally died on the mill – thus taking time to change out.  I saved a couple thousand on blades but it cost me a lot of time and performance.

I still sent two new boxes of 15 back to Re-Sharp after their fist run just to keep in reserve.  The sharpener is set up in a shed without heat so it's not real comfortable in the cold of the winter to work out there.  Even if I bundled up to keep warm,  the oil would be too cold to flow.  Anyway,  we've used one box of these reserve blades in the past month.  Wood-Mizer is having an open house at the end of April so I plan to use the other box and take the two boxes along with me to Re-Sharp to get them sharpened.  Not having to pay shipping is the big deal maker.  I'll take inventory of our blade stock and we'll probably buy more new blades – thus maybe I won't have to be out in the bake oven of a shed sharpening blades in July and August.



 

Here is one of the "survivors".  I've ground away almost 3/16" off it and its still going.  I don't think I can even get the grinder to sharpen it again unless I moved the pins up to the 1" level.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

FeltzE

QuoteI hate to sharpen blades. I'd about rather eat a bug.

IMO - Bibby you summed it up, the difference between those who sharpen and those who don't...It's a matter of what you want to do.

QuoteIf you're running production mode where time is money and you can be making more money with your time by sawing rather than sharpening

Production mode or not, I have yet to find someone who averages $40+hour operating their mill throughout the day every day. Cleanup doesn't pay back, yard maintenance doesn't pay back (both need to be done), sharpening blades pays directly back by offsetting the resharp service essentially netting an income [comparitavely] considering most saws are not runnin 40 hrs a weeks. Note I said SAWs not Sawyers. I suppose if your sawing at a net of $40/hr to offset sharpening 4 blades (a $40 value) your even... if you don't count fuel/electric to run the sawmill and wear and tear parts.


Don't mind my bullheadedness, I run my saw throughout the week as orders demand, it could be 50 hrs or just 4. I have time to sharpen, and make time if I don't. And I'm financially ahead for it. No question.

terrifictimbersllc

Quote from: FeltzE on March 16, 2012, 08:10:18 AM
Terriffictimbers - what are you checking that takes so long?  It takes me less time to set the blade than it does to sharpen one.

I don't even check the actual set with a micrometer (only rarely) any more. Years of using the setter and just looking at the saw cut tells me if I need to run a touch more or less set.  IF I'm running a bunch of oak I can run my set slightly smaller, and wide knotty pine, much wider. 

The concept of having a specific number on the micrometer is a great way to teach someone what the starting point or range of set should be. If I were sharpening for others I suppose I'd check my set so that I can quantify it to the customer but even then only a few seconds.
I agree if one doesn't carefully check the set, that setting doesn't take very long.   I am checking the set with the WM set gauge.   I don't care about +/- 2-3 thousandths.  It's when I'm targeting 26 thousandths and I find a bunch of  teeth at 34-36 or something like that.  I am using a depth gauge which I posted on earlier, to set the top of the gullet 1/16" below the top of the clamps.  I don't think one could do this better by eye.  This seems to be the biggest factor affecting reproducibility of the set, if one leaves the dials alone.  Part of the problem is probably that some teeth have more set than others before setting.   I wish I had a roller or something to crank the blade through, to flatten out or bring the set down to a uniform under-size, before setting.  I think this would get rid of the problem.  Cranking through twice also helps make a uniform set. 
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

Chuck White

I think Sharpening your own and Resharp both have their merits!

Basically if you're a hobby sawyer, you would normally have the spare time to sharpen your own blades.  In this respect you're making/saving money!

If you're a production sawyer, most times you don't have much for spare time, so that's where the resharp comes in.  With resharp, you're making money (in a sense) because you're sawing (making bigger money) while someone else sharpens your blades.  In this respect, you're making more money than you would if you were taking time to sharpen blades!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Peter Drouin

You get what you pay for . My WM sharper and setter will sharpen a box of blades in an hr. thats $100.oo for resharp or me.  not bad money for an hr. just playing in the barn. I have a place thats dry and not cold to sharpen my blades. if your going to sharping your blades set your self up to do a good job. You do when you set the mill up to cut. same thing with the blades

  

  like this I;ts easy ;D ;D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

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