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Sharpening and Setting

Started by Stephen1, March 06, 2012, 05:58:41 AM

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Stephen1

NEEDED Tips on dressing the grinding wheel. Also setting.....do you set before or after sharpening? do you set every sharpening?
I have an older woodmizer sharpener and single tooth setter.
My sharpened blade does not last as long as a new blade, is this normal?
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

Jim_Rogers

I dress the stone just before I start grinding a band. I dress it parallel with the grinder arbor. And I dress it so there is a slope up the right side that matches the back of the tooth.

I do two very light grinds when I sharpen a blade unless I see light reflecting from the tip of a tooth. Then I may do three.

In the past when I used to set my own, I'd do it after grinding. But you have to de-burr your blade to get the grinding burr off it before you set.

If you have a setter with a dial indicator then check your blade after de-burring and see if it needs set or not. Sometimes I won't set my blades until it needs set.

I hope that helps you.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

bandmiller2

Stephen,when you get a new grinding wheel they have a square face.You want to dress the side of the wheel that comes down the face of the tooth to the radis of the gullet at its root.Usally thats the left side of the stone.You dress the right side of the stone with a radis that will give you a light grind along the back of the tooth to the tip,that takes some trial and error.I dress the wheels with a diamond grit dresser its light years ahead of the abrasive[cheap] brick they give you.Myself when I get the wheel shaped right I don't mess with it as long as its grinding well,I use the red or blue ceramic wheels on a cats claw.The left side of the will wear and as you grind many bands, will give you less hook on your tooth,for most of us thats a good thing.If your determined to keep the same hook you need to dress the wheel back fairly often. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Chuck White

There have been debates on here in the past as to whether you should set the blade then sharpen or the other way around.

I used to sharpen, deburr, then set.

Now I set then sharpen, and don't worry about the burr.

As for setting frequency, I set my bands every time, but there are some that only set at the 3rd sharpening.
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Stephen1

I am setting everytime before I sharpen as I am hitting hardware.and if not steel,  gravel.
How many teeth have to be rounded before you wright the blade off after hitting nails?
Today is very bad, a lot of grit in the beams. I have foe thru 12 blades in 3 beams. 12x20.
Where can u get the diamond dresser. I agree the brick seems ancient
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

Dan Sawyer

You should dress the stone prior when you first get it.  You should also re-dress it as needed.

If you set first then grind, your overall set will be less than desired because of the material you remove in order to get sharp corners on the tips of the teeth. By setting before you grind, overall set could be 0.004" – 0.006" under the desired finish kerf.

If you tried to overset to compensate, you may risk cracking teeth.

Example: Set a blade to 0.022" – kerf is at 0.022". Then grind that blade until you get sharp corners, you may have a 0.002" – 0.003" radius of wear at the corner to remove. Multiply that by 2 (for L & R teeth) and your overall set (kerf) nets out to somewhere between 0.016" to 0.018".

bandmiller2

Stephen,I got my diamond dresser at one of those woodworkers machinery stores but any co. that deals with machine tools or grinding wheels should have them.There are basically two types single point,and cemented grit.My dresser looks like the letter "T"with diamond grit on top.I set before I sharpen usally every time I sharpen.I have a tool with a dial indicator on it first I check the set if boath sides are close and even the band goes on the sharpener.If you hit nails sometimes you can still saw without replacing the band,check the teeth close [mill shut off] you will see little curls of the steel nail stuck to the tooth tip of several teeth.Take your pocket knife and come up from the gullet and flip them off.If you loose your set game over you'll have to reset and sharpen Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Stephen1

I put a new stone on last night, and got a nice dressing done on it, I was having a rough time getting it to match the blade before.
Jim, I like the tip about light at the tip of the tooth, I did that last night , will see how they cut today.

Bandmiller, I will check out the store this afternoon, for a diamond dresser, I have one near by.
I am going to try deburring before sharpening and see how that works. See if it makes a difference.

Dan sawyer , what are you using to deburr?
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

bandmiller2

Stephen the only time you need to deburr is if you set after you grind.Set first there will be no burrs then sharpen and don't worry about the burrs the log will remove them.If you set first the grinder can give you a nice straight across edge,if you set after sharpening edge will be cocked slightly,but not much,your option. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Chuck White

Quote from: bandmiller2 on March 07, 2012, 06:47:19 AM
If you set first the grinder can give you a nice straight across edge,if you set after sharpening edge will be cocked slightly,but not much,your option. Frank C.


That's exactly the way Mr. Tom explained it Frank!

Works for me!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Dan Sawyer

I don't know what deburring will gain before sharpening; (doesn't seem logical)

To answer your question Stephen, no we don't deburr after sharpening.

The biggest burr is generated along the bottom of the gullet and deburring there really isn't going to affect performance. Sharpening on the Cat Claw generally produces minimal burr at the tip. The only way I can think of to deburr a sharpened blade would be to stone or scrap the burr off by hand (each tooth/gullet) and that would potentially damage the sharpened tooth and also be terribly time consuming. The best way to minimize burr is to take light removal passes at a fairly fast rate with the sharpener; the rock shouldn't dwell on the blade any longer than is necessary to remove a small amount of material. I believe that some of the guys who are stating that they are generating a lot of burr are trying to sharpen the blade too fast and are trying to remove all wear in one or two passes. They would be better off taking several light passes at a faster rate. This will minimize burr and excessive heat which can lead to premature breakage. Also, it is best to hand dress the rock between blades to keep it from loading.

vfauto

I just got a new Cats Claw sharpener and setter and was wondering if some one with experience could give a detailed explanation of setting up the setter.I do not mean the initial set up. The instructions were fine for that. Where I need help is how to zero out the dial indicators and getting the set the same on every stroke??? I sharpened my first couple of blades and tried one the other day. It seemed to cut ok with no wave in the boards but there where lines across the boards from what I would guess would be from a bad set ?
The definition of insanity is to do the same things over and over and expect a different result!

bandmiller2

I'am not sure which setter you have single or dual tooth.The only way to set a setter is trial and error as the bands are spring steel and must be overset as they will spring back.Setting your dial indicators I would back off the tooth pushers and clamp in a straight flat piece.Adjust and zero your dial indicator to that.I use a seperate dial indicator to check tooth set and adjust my dual tooth setter to come close to the target set.You will probibly  start drinking heavy if you try to get the set perfect,within two or three thousands is close enough. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Chuck White

Yes, it's as Frank said!

For example, when I'm setting my bands, I set at 25°, but anywhere from 24° to 26° is good.

If you want to start having severe headaches and frustration, try setting your bands to where they're perfect.  :o
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

vfauto

What causes teeth to snap off when setting?
The definition of insanity is to do the same things over and over and expect a different result!

Chuck White

Don't know!!!!

I've never had that happen.

Do you have the bottom of the gullet "just above" the push plate when you are setting?  Maybe just the thickness of your fingernail!

Perhaps if you don't, and the push plate is part way up to tooth, it could happen due to the tooth being tempered.
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Dan Sawyer

Teeth will snap off or break off when you attempt to set the teeth at a greater amount then what the manufacturer did when they originally set the teeth on the blade.  For example, if the blade was set by the manufacturer to .025 and you attempt to re-set the teeth to .028, the teeth will likely break.  You should only be trying to re-qualify the set on the teeth when re-setting.

The teeth will break when you do this because manufacturers set the teeth prior to induction hardening the tooth tips.  This simply means that the metal the teeth are made of is in the soft state when they are being set by the manufacturer.  The blade on the teeth then go through a hardening process (induction tip hardening) which hardens the teeth (this is why the teeth are a darker color than the rest of the blade).  When you reset the teeth, you are attempting to reset a piece of steel that is in the hard state.  If you over-qualify the set, the teeth will break because they are brittle.

Your best bet is to qualify the teeth to the manufacturer's specifications. 

bandmiller2

Dan knows what he's talking about.My own take on the matter is the tips of the teeth are hardened if you try to just set the tips of the teeth much you'll snap them.Adjust your setter so your pushing below the hard tip,just restore what the band came with,or mayby a little more.Below the teeth the band is softer to give it a good flex life,a fully hard band wouldn't last. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Stephen1

An update....I was at woodmizer this week picking up my extension. I took my setter as I have figured out the sharpening, it is the setter that is my next problem. It is older from the 90's  and had a few modifierd parts, so Brian WM Canada sugested the hand crank upgrade, works lik a charm, my previos settinjg left my blades around 15 thou...no wonder the blades were steaming and smoking.  8)
I am stting the teeth at 28 to 30 thiou, or least trying.I hity a nail which is quite frequent on this project. I sometimes am using 10 blades a day, one day I went thru 20 blades in 12 beams, they were full of ice and sand and gravel.
I have one more thing to say ther people at WM Canada have been just great helping me thru this job of mine, in fact Brian joke that he missed my daily calls,  :D as I slowly get this figured out.
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

moosehunter

I'm a little confused here,.. doesn't take much.
When you set a tooth you are not putting it back where it started, you bending it further to make up for the tip that was worn/ground off. So setting the tooth beyond where the factory put it is an unavoidable neccesity.
Did I make that clear as mud ???
"And the days that I keep my gratitude
Higher than my expectations
Well, I have really good days".    Ray Wylie Hubbard

Stephen1

Clear as mud to me, but still right, as the tooth shrinks we lose set, so we have to bend it back to the set out of the factory,
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

hackberry jake

I've never broke a tooth while setting, but I hear it's pretty easy if you try to set a left tooth right or vise versa
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

Chuck White

Quote from: Stephen1 on March 15, 2012, 03:49:44 PM
Clear as mud to me, but still right, as the tooth shrinks we lose set, so we have to bend it back to the set out of the factory,


Stephen, if you're doing a "full profile" grind, your teeth won't shrink.

You'll take everything down "approximately" at the same rate.

OR, are you talking about the teeth getting slightly smaller while you're sawing?

But, like is said with a full profile grind, you'll end up taking off about the same amount of metal throughout the length of the band.

I think I've worded this like I wanted to.  :-\
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Stephen1

I agree as long as you do.a full.profile everything stays the same...except the width of the blade. It will gradually shrink.
Here is a question...do you always do a full profile grind? Do you set overtime.? I notice the set is different when I flip the blade? Is this because of the blade running on the wheels or did I Jistegetring hit some more metal?
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

Jim_Rogers

If the set is different when you set the blade then you may have one side duller than the other.
When setting they should be both set the same.

To de-burr, I just took a 1x1 stick of red oak and rubbed it on the side of the blade that has the burr on it. And it would knock the burr off the tooth enough so you could set it.

I always set after I grind, when I used to set my blades.

If you are just skimming the timbers then that side will be duller then the other side. And it sucks to have to sharpen a blade when only one side is dull but you have to do it anyway.

I have always found that the better way to do it is to take a deeper cut then just skimming the top. So that the blade only enters the cut on the edge of the timber.
If there is a risk of dirt, sand or over stuff, then I'd run the water full wide open to wash it off as I cut.

Your signature doesn't say what mill you have. I know it's WM, but what size and year?

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Nomad

Quote from: Stephen1 on March 16, 2012, 01:08:03 PM
I agree as long as you do.a full.profile everything stays the same...except the width of the blade. It will gradually shrink.

     The depth of the blade will shrink; IE from the top of the teeth to the bottom of the blade.  The thickness of the blade will stay the same.  For example, .045 is going to stay .045.  The distance across from one tooth to the next will get smaller. 
     A .045 blade, with a .025 set, would be .095 across from the tip of a left facing tooth to the tip of a right facing tooth.  .045+.025+.025=.095.  As you grind the tip of the tooth, you're removing the part that sticks farthest out from the body of the blade.  Therefore, the set becomes less each time you sharpen.  Sharpening the whole profile doesn't change that.  Barring damage done during sawing, that is what requires resetting a blade if you want to bring it back to factory specs.
Buying a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter
WoodMizer LT50HDD51-WR
Lucas DSM23-19

Stephen1

Well as in my other post, I did finish my cutting job.
I am not bad and sharpen and setting now, thanks for the info guys.
Jim, thanks for the info , it is a WM LT40HD, 1993 with 750 hrs on it. It came with a sharpener, setter, and a barely used resaw attachment wired and ready to go.
I got pretty good at sharpening and setting as I was going thru 10 blades a day, and a couple of days 18 blades.
I have damaged blades, when do you decide to throw them out, how many bad teeth, or do you keep sharpening untill you get all the teeth the same. Do you save them to use them on ugly wood that u know will have junk in them or just throw them out? I have about 15 damaged blades, plus I broke about 8 blades. they  :o are amazing able to cut thru 1/2 lag bolts, mind they don't cut very well after you hear the zing... :D
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

bandmiller2

Stephen two or three broken teeth are not the kiss of death for a band unless their in a row.Most of us save old bands for those doggy logs,but never seem to have them on the mill when we hit something,always a new band.Seems to me one side of a band seems to loose more of its set than the outher,its not a perfect system but as long as the boards come out well we're OK. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

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