restriction on boxelder????

MHineman · March 05, 2012, 10:25:18 AM

Not about Boxelder specifically, but all species not typically sawn or what we'd call "not a good log to saw":
When a customer calls and tells me about these kinds of logs, I ask him what he has in mind for the lumber. Often, they have no idea. I help them along with questions about using it for sheds, trim work, woodworking, etc.
I ask if they want structure or character. If they want something with character, it's great. If structure, I advise them to skip things like Boxelder.
If you can develop a woodworker market for the lumber with character, you can do fairly well and provide something the larger outlet don't have.
I'm trying to develop that here, but it takes more time than I've been able to devote to it.

Okrafarmer · March 05, 2012, 11:16:19 PM

Maybe I'm just blessed to be in an area with a lot of wood-workers who want character. :-\ But most of the people who come to buy wood from me, that's what they ask for.

davidv · March 09, 2012, 10:11:25 AM

http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/TF/lw/thread2.cfm?threadid=234113&category=88#3186688

Axe Handle Hound · March 09, 2012, 12:49:47 PM

I believe that in WI you can't transport any hardwoods out of the EAB quarantine zone unless it's been kiln dried. I think the rules do allow for the transport of softwood materials out of the EAB zone during the winter months. The link below gives more detail.

http://datcpservices.wisconsin.gov/eab/article.jsp?topicid=20

beenthere · March 09, 2012, 02:33:25 PM

From the details, I read it as "any firewood" transported from the EAB zones.

Otherwise only ash species are restricted in forms of nursery stock, lumber, or timber (trees, logs).

Axe Handle Hound · March 09, 2012, 04:07:34 PM

Looks like you are correct. It's been a while since I reviewed the site and it appears that either the rules changed (not likely) or I just never understood the correctly to begin with (highly likely).

MHineman · March 09, 2012, 09:59:25 PM

The rules for EAB transport in Indiana have changed recently. But we also declared the entire state except for a few counties in the southwest part of the state to be "generally infested" even though not all of those counties have EAB sightings.
Has Wisconsin got as widespread EAB as we do. I thought only Michigan and Ohio had it as bad as Indiana.

beenthere · March 09, 2012, 10:49:51 PM

MH
Click on Axe Handle's link and you will see the counties in WI. Further down, you will see Indiana, Michigan, Ohio and the other areas where EAB has been located. Adjacent counties are quarantined according to USDA

Grunex · March 10, 2012, 06:41:18 PM

well.......I know it's been a while since I posted here on this subject, but.............. I scored BIG today on Box Elder. (imagine that) And like Randy, I hate the stuff, it stinks when you cut it down it rots quickly and is not very good for structural uses. However, I did manage to find a buyer for most if not all of it. plus I get paid to clear which is what my business is anyway. So I guess, maybe I can learn to live with a few Box elder trees in my life..

By the way Randy I did manage to upgrade my services this year, I didn't get that Army tractor trailer yet, but I did manage to get an old Army 6by6 dumper. Still have to use the custom haulers I think this year, but hopefully that will change by this fall. only about so much one can do in one year, I'm just happy I don't have to run my tracks off doin everything with the 53.

Randy88 · March 11, 2012, 09:08:31 AM

Grunex, who did you find that wanted them and what were they paying for them? Can you use a tag trailer to haul your cat around with behind you 6x6?

Grunex · March 19, 2012, 12:18:37 AM

Quote from: Randy88 on March 11, 2012, 09:08:31 AM
Grunex, who did you find that wanted them and what were they paying for them? Can you use a tag trailer to haul your cat around with behind you 6x6?

I won't say the name of the buyer here as it would destroy my own market, but I will say it is a business that needs lots of cheap wood on an industrial scale. I'm asking and getting 50 per cord, (green) and cutting the logs out to send to a pallet mill. I'm thinking that maybe the cheaper wood in this economy is going to be a bit more popular to buyers, but all in all the hardwood retailers are still going to have an edge because of the established concept that oak is still best. I don't mean to step on anybody's toes here, especially those that had a hard winter because of the warmer temps, I've just never taken to the idea that we have to push all this "bulk" on a pile for the eventual burning later. My ideas were to give some truckers a bit of the action and at the same time work to develop a new market and explore new uses for a wood that is considered mostly "trash" I've spent too much of my younger years wishing I had something and making do with little to go on, and this seems to be a good oprotunity to explore some possibilities. maybe in the end I will end up liking the trees after all...........lol

As for the tag trailer, yes I could pull it for short moves, and would like to buy one yet this year, but got a bit of a bad taste in my mouth over the last deal that fell through with the lender. I won't be moving around near as much this year as compared to last year so I think I can swing the custom hauling for another year.
Here is a pic of the ole girl

It is not going to win awards for best of show, but it sure beats tracking everything where I need to go. should make a good site truck.

As for the trucking of the wood I will be hiring Semi end dumps when the time comes, just because that is the only way to move the amt of wood needed cost effectively, and a Semi and end dump trailer is something I don't have. Time is another problem, I'm mostly working alone and just don't have enough time to make the runs. (All growing pains guys)

Okrafarmer · March 19, 2012, 12:30:01 AM

Sounds like you have a good thing going, Grunex. That's what it's all about, going out there and finding those new markets, wherever they are. If they pay you enough to make it worth it, then good for you. Sounds like you have a good unending supply of box elder to supply them with.

Grunex · March 19, 2012, 12:48:29 AM

Quote from: Okrafarmer on March 19, 2012, 12:30:01 AM
Sounds like you have a good thing going, Grunex. That's what it's all about, going out there and finding those new markets, wherever they are. If they pay you enough to make it worth it, then good for you. Sounds like you have a good unending supply of box elder to supply them with.

been told too many times to quit and go home....... makes me bull headed!!!
kind of a stubborn believer in the biomass markets, and feel that with the current energy situation in this country all possibilities need to be explored. I've got faith in a lot of what is being done by guys like yourselves and feel that if possible we can pick a number of suppliers and retailers up along the way and help out a whole bunch of people in the process, including the end users! It's an idea with a lot of bugs yet, but the general business model seems to be working. I'll keep you guys posted as time goes on and as the need arises I'll deffinatly post a call out to you guys here as demand increases. For now we're culturing a fledgling market and flooding it would surely destroy it.

Randy88 · March 20, 2012, 09:41:19 AM

Grunex,, We've been trying to give it away, and there is never anyone to want it, we don't pile it up to burn later, we burn it as we pile it up and continue on till we're done doing what we were hired to do, then spread out the ashes and do the landscaping or whatever is needed after the brush and undesirable trees are gone. Two years ago we pulled 58 semi loads out for myself, gave up trying to give the rest away and lit it up and burned till we were done. I hear all the time about the tough economy, but in reality see very little of it, I too would think there should be something useful for this stuff but the problem is there is so much of it, nobody wants, anyone wanting some can certainly take the nicer stuff and forget the rest.

The problem with biomass is the cost to process it, there is little left for the one with the trees, most landowners feel, why give it to someone who can make a buck on it, just give it to someone who will use it and not sell it, thats the problem, if nobody will buy it, there is little worth to it, so why take it. If you wanted to give away some oak firewood trees, there would be a dozen there to take it, cut it up and haul it away, say boxelder and nobody shows up, even though there is little heat btu's difference between the two, its just a mental blockage thing I guess. That and the prolific rate of growth and the ability for boxelders to grow about anywhere and they do.

Okrafarmer · March 20, 2012, 09:59:26 AM

Why are you not selling them for pulpwood? We sell all hardwoods for $21 / ton. The only wood they say they won't take here, for pulp, is walnut, and we have over 100 species of trees in our area (not counting the ones people plant in their yards).

Randy88 · March 20, 2012, 08:05:43 PM

To my knowledge there is no pulp plants anywhere around me, let alone anyone willing or wanting anything for pulp, I'm told the trucking is too high to ever make it break even let alone turn a profit, even if the product was free, if this isn't right it was what I've been told by quite a few, and all I know of pulp.

Several pallet factories were wiling to buy or take them, but they are so far behind, due to the downturn in the economy and demand for pallets that they'll never live long enough to ever get to most of the trees, that and around me the making of oak or a better grade of pallet is being made and they are reusing them many times over, also causing a downturn in demand for the lower quality one time used pallet.

The other double negative with boxelder is the problem of poor quality logs, so crooked, bent, twisted and knotted that it takes so many extra logs to get the same amount of lumber, most don't want to deal with it, there are plenty of better quality logs out there that are now cheaper due to the lag in demand for lumber in building and housing, again its what I've been told.

So far unless you find someone who wants just a few logs for some speciality project for themselves, or a few that will use it for firewood, there is no real use for the trees, and at the rate they grow and repopulate there are billions of trees growing that nobody wants and are considered a weed by more than just me.

Maybe the idea of going green will catch on, and cities will not only start to burn garbage from around the city to use as a heat source but also will include trees ground up to supplement the need for a heat source, I've wondered for years why its not done more, maybe its just an economic thing, I'm not sure.

shelbycharger400 · March 20, 2012, 10:47:27 PM

hmm.... maybe im doin it all wrong.. ive been cuttin tree lines down for the farmers just for the wood, no cash. . although the one dose go out and move them/ roll them over with his skid loader or tractor, and move out all the sticks and junk. . grunex is gettin paid to do clearin jobs..

on the lines... how much u chargin ol pal??
we have already thought about it a bit, but we dont want to irritate the good people , hundreds and hundreds of cords that need to be done, continiously! sprinkler systems seem to make the trees grow fast .

SwampDonkey · March 20, 2012, 10:55:47 PM

Maybe you fellas will be to box elder as Cedarman is the eastern red cedar. :D

Okrafarmer · March 21, 2012, 12:59:59 AM

There's no shortage of demand for pulp wood around here, only a shortage of good prices. They're screaming for us to haul more-- (by us, I mean all the loggers and people who bring them pulp, was talking to a serious logger the other day) -- but won't raise the price. They don't care what species for pulp. If they just raise the price more people will get it. But I find it hard to believe that anywhere in the US that has forested tracts of land, there is not a pulp market that would make it worth hauling a good heavy hardwood like that. I would think you could pile it up at the landing and have the independent self-loaders come pick it up and pay you for it. That's how they do with aspen, and so on, and other junk wood, and I don't see why they wouldn;t take the box elder too. And if you are being paid to get rid of it-- well, surely they'll give you $100 a load or something to haul it off. Then again I don't know your area, but I would have thought so. Around here we have three pulp places we can haul to, two of them owned by the same company. They pay $21/ton, so a 20-ton load would be about $420 at the mill. Are the numbers that much worse where you are?

Okrafarmer · March 21, 2012, 01:01:52 AM

Oh and when we took the most recent load of pulp in, yesterday I think, we reminded them we would like to pay them to seperate out for us any bigger maple, cherry, walnut, or holly they come across, and the man said-- sorry, only walnut. He's pulping the maple and cherry because he can't get enough pulp. :

SwampDonkey · March 21, 2012, 06:03:20 AM

What does the landowner get, or is this for clearing jobs? $20/ton would not be bad if it's a clearing job, but on a logging job no one would touch it around here because the landowner would want at least $10/ton. What do you pay cutters and truckers from what's left? Maybe that's what these mills down your way hope for, is wood from clearing jobs, keeping the price low. ???

Okrafarmer · March 21, 2012, 01:51:20 PM

I was under the impression that these were clearing jobs, and that if he didn't sell it, he would have to burn it or grind it.

Grunex · March 25, 2012, 01:59:22 PM

Indeed it is for a clearing job, landowner just wants it gone. I get to make a mess but then I have to clean it back up again.

I found an interesting link, which basiclly confirmed what I have been saying to people about the dollar value of the tree in BTU's

for comparison I compared to White Oak at 160/cord vs. boxelder at 50/cord
looks like boxelders comes out the winner in this case.

http://firewoodresource.com/firewood-btu-ratings/

What makes it more economicly appealing is that most times boxelder is readily available.

SwampDonkey · March 25, 2012, 02:44:38 PM

You just need more of it, and the space for it. ;D

Grunex · March 25, 2012, 06:58:42 PM

yup thats a fact.........economics of scale have to be figured in here, delivering by the pickup load is out of the question. Semis and end dumps are the only way to make it work. but on the same note we wouldn't have the extra cost involved of chipping either. Correct me if I'm wrong but with the average weight of boxelder at 3700lbs green it would figure in to about 25-30 ton. correct?