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Got a phone call

Started by Kansas, February 14, 2012, 09:05:25 AM

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Kansas

Had a phone call yesterday morning from someone planning on  to put
a plant near Paola KS that will turn sawdust (along with cardboard and other stuff) into ethanol. He was trying to find steady supplies of sawdust. I gave him the rundown on the state of the industry in Kansas, along with my ideas for alternate sources such as pallets. Told him we could supply steady, but probably not the volume. I would love to have a place to send all the sawdust. Question is, is this a viable technology that has been proved? Anyone know anywhere its being done, and what they are paying? Concerning biofuels, I really haven't paid that much attention to the celluolistic ethanol. I am just trying to figure out if this guy is blowing smoke or is serious.

Jeff

They are supposed to start construction on a plant in Kinross this year, about 40 minutes from our land in the U.P.

DOE commits $80 million to Mascoma wood biofuel project in Michigan

LEBANON, NH, Dec. 14, 2011 (Business Wire) - Mascoma Corporation, a renewable fuels company, announced today that it has signed a cooperative agreement with the US Department of Energy (DOE) to assist in the design, construction and operation of a commercial-scale hardwood cellulosic ethanol facility in Kinross, Michigan. The cooperative agreement provides for up to $80 million in DOE funding, in addition to $20 million in funding previously awarded by the DOE related to research and development for this project. This agreement includes a cost-sharing arrangement under which the DOE will contribute to the costs for construction of the Kinross facility, and the balance of the construction costs will be funded by Valero Energy Corporation and a grant from the State of Michigan.

"This DOE award is a significant milestone for Mascoma, and the biofuels industry, as it completes the financing for the development and construction of a first-of-its-kind 20 million gallon per year cellulosic ethanol facility in Kinross," stated Bill Brady, President and CEO of Mascoma. "We are excited to apply our proprietary consolidated bioprocessing (CBP) technology platform to produce cellulosic ethanol on a commercial scale and thereby provide a low-cost, sustainable alternative to petroleum-based products."

The Kinross facility will use Mascoma's proprietary CBP technology platform, which has been developed by Mascoma over the past five years, to convert hardwood pulpwood into ethanol. Hardwood pulpwood is a selectively harvested, naturally regenerated feedstock and is an underutilized, abundant resource in the surrounding area. Construction of the Kinross facility is anticipated to start in the next three to six months and is expected to be completed by year-end 2013. Kinross Cellulosic Ethanol LLC, a joint venture formed by Mascoma and Valero, will develop and operate the Kinross facility.

"Biofuels hold great potential, not only for reducing our dependence on foreign oil, but also for creating new jobs and economic opportunities for America's rural communities," said Valerie Reed, Ph.D., Acting Biomass Program Manager, Office of Energy Efficiency & Renewable Energy, of the DOE. "The cooperative agreement between Mascoma and the DOE will enable the construction of a new commercial-scale advanced biofuels facility, and the only one using CBP technology. It is indeed a significant step towards meeting America's energy challenges with cost-effective and sustainable bioprocesses."

"Mascoma is honored to receive this award and we are fortunate to have such a strong partnership with the DOE for the Kinross project. We look forward to the continued support from and collaboration with the DOE," added Michael Ladisch, Ph.D., Chief Technology Officer of Mascoma, Principal Investigator for the DOE award, and Distinguished Professor at Purdue University.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Norm

I've yet to be convinced that celluosic ethanol is viable. There's so many other things we can use for making biofuels I am dubious of using something with so little energy conversion for the amount of mass input to make this work without being heavily subsidized.

Maybe ask the farmers in NW Iowa how they feel after investing tons of money to gather the fodder for Poet. USDA pulled the cost share on the bales and now they are holding the bag so to speak.

Kansas

Thanks for the post, Jeff. I need to do a lot of research. If they want a commitment, I want to know what they are getting into, as well as me.

Norm, sawdust I could understand if they can make it work, simply because its a waste byproduct. Granted, there are uses for it, but you have to do something with it. I have never understood the fodder part of things. I'm not a farmer, but it seems to me that having it going back into the ground has value. The no till farmers around here are very proud of their organic material in their fields. Plus it helps stop erosion and holds the soil some, whether no till or not.

crtreedude

we sell all our sawdust for 75 cents a bag, as much as we can get. Then the farmer gives me it back dirty... which I then spread in our farms.
So, how did I end up here anyway?

jim king

Now if that was a small private corporation I would be all for it.  But with the various govt agencies and all thier experts involved I would run as far as I can go.

Take a look around , how many of these fabulaus projects have succeeded ?  Why dont they build a highway or fix a bridge or do something useful.  Seems as tho I read something about the US now being the biggest exportor of gasoline,  am I missing something  ???

Kansas

The USA now exports more refined gasoline and diesel than it imports. Think its heavier on the diesel. As far as oil goes, we still import about half of what we use. The reason we export is that reduced demand in this country means they need to keep the refineries busy with exports.

Norm

You're right Kansas, for every ton of dry material you remove you have to put so much fertilizer back to make up for it. Then of course I really like natural nutrients if possible over the non organic kind.

But here's the rub on this stuff, it has such low energy to mass or weight that you are paying big bucks to transport it. Even corn ethanol has this problem but it's energy to mass is much higher and you get a high quality  feedstock out of the leftovers.

I'll take a nuke plant over celluosic any day. Heck I'd take a nuke plant in my back yard over the 1000's of wind mills in my back yard any day.

snowstorm

the old GP mill in old town maine was bought and turned into a bio fuels mill i belive she yup she calls it red sheild she also bought a closed paper mill in nh

WDH

I am not aware that any cellulosic ethanol plant has made it out of the lab and to scale production yet.  On the big one here in Georgia, the outfit that was building it, Range Fuels, had the creditors take it over.  Another outfit is now trying to revive the project.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Dodgy Loner

When I was a county extension agent, I got to spend some quality time with a UGA engineer who had dedicated his entire professional career to researching ethanol production. His belief was that trying to convert our gasoline economy to ethanol was a waste of time. No matter how you make it, it takes a whole lot of energy to make just a little bit more energy than you had to begin with. He believed that the long-term solution was to swap our power plants over to nuclear, then to begin converting our gas-powered cars to electric. This would free up enough oil for the larger engines that cannot conceivably run on electricity (like diesel engines for cargo vehicles) that our oil supply would last far into the forseeable future, and we would be able to supply it all ourselves.

But heck, if Uncle Sam is footing the bill for this cellulosic ethanol, and you have a market for your sawdust as a result, I suppose you (and many others) will be better off as a result. As for the country as a whole, I'm not conviced.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

WDH

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

bugdust

I've seen ventures such as this in WV using coal fines to make brickettes. The bricketts would be sold overseas for cooking and heating fuels. Once the plant was completed they ran one day and shut down. Within 30 days they were out and gone. The reason for investment was .....TAX CREDITS. Our company laid 4,000' of 6" gas line to supply the plant and was reimbursed 100%. One year later we bought the pipeline for $1.00. Not to say this is the reason mentioned in this post, just saying schemes are like this, and perfectly legal.
Since I retired I really like work: It fascinates me. I can sit and look at it for hours.

thecfarm

In my little world. Almost 30 years ago when the shoe industry was going over seas,I worked for one place. They built a big warehouse for us. We had way more room than what we needed. LOTS of empty racks and empty space. Even had humidifies to keep the leather from drying out.  ::) Everyone I worked with was excited. They did not build this place to close down.  ::) Even though I was real young,20 I knew something was up. No company builds a building bigger than what you need and when the trucks were backing up with finished lasts in them daily. It was probably a government hand out. We was there no more than a year. The company got the building to sell and pocketed the money.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

cowtipper

what... we use to make shoes in the US?

talldog

Yes,another Mainer here. Shoe-shops were a  big part of the Maine economy.I believe that we still have a few,with LL Bean being the most famous

mad murdock

Quote from: Norm on February 14, 2012, 09:20:43 AM
I've yet to be convinced that celluosic ethanol is viable. There's so many other things we can use for making biofuels I am dubious of using something with so little energy conversion for the amount of mass input to make this work without being heavily subsidized.


I agree Norm. You can make methane out of a lot of waste products for way less energy put in for what you get out, for example.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

thecfarm

LL Bean may be the most famous,but check out where thier foot ware are made now. Not many in Maine or in the US either.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Handy Andy

  When we get a new administration, all these "green" energy projects will be abandoned, and sell as foreclosed properties, because none of them work well enough to be economically feasible. 
My name's Jim, I like wood.

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