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tree clamp ?????

Started by robotguy, February 10, 2004, 08:46:13 PM

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robotguy

i need to find / invent, a tree clamp.
criteria is a follows
1. can't damage the tree surface (bark) (minor cosmetic is o;k)
2. can't damage (short & long term) the tree bark or the growth area directly under the bark.
3. needs to support 2 ton by itself or 4 ton in tandum with another clamp. (two clamps on two seperate trees with a bar or cable strung between the two to support a load about 7 feet off the ground).
4. needs to  be mechanically installed & de-installed if possable.
5. lighweight for job site transport.
6. diameter of tree to be *clamped* is about 12" to 18".
    
 i  have seen anchor tree's where a cable has been wrapped around it for logging & stripped of the bark down to the wood exposing it , and the tree lived & the bark was re-growing back, but  that is totally unacceptable for what i need . i have consider'd  using slings (nylon) but may not be feasable for continious or robotic installation use.

my main concern is for the tree,s so that they remain un-damaged once i detach the clamp as i dont know what damage may result due to *pressure* on the bark from the clamp. any words of wisdom on this specific subject is greatly appreciated.

i have a few idea's for this *clamp* such as using tire rubber for surface contact with tree bolted to the *clamp*, ect, ect, but someone here may have  already seen/used something similiar,
thank's in advance for the help      
 
robotguy.

Stephen_Wiley

Do I understand you correctly: ...........your wanting to use a 12" to 18" tree as a anchor tree?  Is this a d.b.h. measurement?

Little confused - here as to what your wanting to do!

If your not wanting to harm the tree, (item 4) mechanical installation will cause wounding.

Can you give a little more information as to what you need an anchor point for?
" If I were two faced, do you think I would be wearing this one?"   Abe Lincoln

rebocardo

If I was worried about damaging a tree, I would try a 4" wide strap, put tire rubber under the strap, and wrap the strap around that rubber ring twice to spread the load and prevent pinching. If you are using it for a winch point.

Kevin

A sling on the tree or trees and a rope.
No clamp.
Maybe add guying using rope.

robotguy

sorry about the confusion,,  the thickness of the anchor tree is 12" to 18"  thick ( don't know how that translates into d.b.h.)
and the reason for the *clamp* is to support a cable /rope so i can * trolly*  equipment & wood  in & out of the woods,  
the attaching of the *clamp* to the tree would not be mechanically installed or * bolted into the tree*  but  placed around the tree for supporting a load , thus the concern for damaging the tree.
i am working on a  prototype piece of equipment for the forestry industry and one of the operations  is to have a robotic arm do some work that a forest worker does ( thinning , limbing, ect, ect ) . the *clamp* thing is what i am seeking info on as i can't/ wont harm the anchor tree
i have a few ideas on it's design but wanted to hear from the pro's who have been there / done that .
  (still working on getting these smiley faces in the right spot)

thanks    robotguy

beenthere

robotguy

You first said ""needs to  be mechanically installed & de-installed if possable."" then you later said in last post ""would not be mechanically installed "".  ???     I don't understand what "mechanically installed" means, (but with the name "robotguy" I might conjure up something in my mind.  :) )  Could you explain it?  Thanks.

As far as not having an effect on the tree you are anchoring to, if this "device" is on the tree and putting a load on the cambial growing layer under the bark, I suspect it could damage the growth of the tree. Maybe consider vertical slats around the tree, with your nylon strapping wrapping on those slats, holding the slats snug to the tree while they distribute the load. Seems this method might not have a girdling effect on the tree.      During the growing season is when I would imagine an effect on the tree. Damaging? I don't know about that. The species of tree would likely play a role in how much effect your "clamp" system has on the tree - i.e. bark thickness.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Stephen_Wiley

d.b.h. = diameter at breast height (4.5 feet) from high point of ground surface.

I think I have a better understanding of what it is your trying to do.

My recommendation would be to stay away from ' tree clamps'. As regardless of design they will still be causing extreme pressure resulting in girdling of the cambium.  And depending upon tree species make actually result in uprooting the tree.

Have you considered anchor rods, which could be screwed or angularly driven ?

" If I were two faced, do you think I would be wearing this one?"   Abe Lincoln

rebocardo

If you have access to a Bobcat, here is what I would suggest. Forget attaching an overhead load to a tree you are worried about damaging. Trees taper upwards and I think you would have to use literally tons of pressure to make sure the clamp stayed there, without cutting into the bark.

Take an eight foot lolly column, 1/4 steel tubing, 4 inches diameter, filled with min. 5000 psi concrete, put 600 pounds of cement on the end (block) with steel rods running through the column and through the newly poured cement block. Then bury it four feet deep.

Of the exposed four feet, you can drill through the middle of the column and attach 1 inch grade 8 hardware that will support just about any pulling load. I doubt you would be able to pull it out of the ground without snapping or bending the pole, which will take some doing. If it starts to pull out under load, just replace the dirt over the buried block with cement. It is cheap and it is heavy.

Randall

How about this?  Get a 1/8" x 3" to 4" steel flat about 3' long. Weld U bolts at the ends and middle on one side at right angles to the flat strap. bend the strap  in a U shape around whatever tree you want. For an 18"- 24" tree I guess the strap would be around 3' long. Thread the rope, chain, etc through the three U bolts. This would spread the pressure across the 3-4" around the tree and you could even yank the chain around the tree without hurting it. If you had to actully "clamp" the thing to the tree you could drill 3/4" holes in each end and bend them up so that when you bent the strap all the way around the tree you could attach the ends with a 3/4" bolt. The strap length would have to be specific to the tree though. I'm planing to do this if I ever need to use a tree as an anchor. Let me know if this is what you might want.

Furby

Sounds like any movement will put a lot of pressure on the tree at the edges of the flat stock. I think a webbed strap would be more forgiving. My 2 cents. :-/

Tom

Here, it is standard procedure for any tree that is used as an anchor tree to be part of the harvest.  No way has been devised to leave it unharmed.  Most that I've seen are used in swamp logging where the logs are high-lined out.

Ron Scott

It's pretty much the same way here. Select a tree that you will harvest near the end of the job or after it has served its helpful purpose. Do not select a quality "save" tree. Any heavy activity on, around, or near it will probably do it harm or degrade its potential future quality.
~Ron

robotguy

found something in the skogma catalog  , strap that wraps around & winches snug , ( found a portable gas powered winch i really found interesting) , so looks likes so far, the strap thing is going to be the way to go ,, i had considered that in my options, but mechanical installation onto an anchor tree was the draw back  so will put that on the * to-do* list . talked with a b.l.m. guy today and found out about the  *ea* (enviromental assesment) ,,, found out that appears to be some sort of a cuss/curse ?? word,,,,,,, with these guys) seams that they cant wiggle a toe without one ,,, got to study something for years  fo're they can do something about it. seams to me that it hamstrings the b.l.m. & keeps them from being able to do there jobs, and the enviro wacko's use the *ea* to tie-up the b.l.m.with lawsuits & keeps them from being able to react to a situation  ( southern oregon  fires of  2002  burned 1/2 million acre,s in one fire ) so salvagable timber  rots & feeds the bugs (supposed to be a frowning smily face here)   oops,,,, got off the subject here.    
thanks again for the help
                                              robotguy

Tillaway

Robot guy...I have been kind of following this and it sort of sounds like you are reinventing the wheel.  The equipment you are inventing  is already on the market.

It sounds like you a trying to do a psuedo multi-span skyline system.  If that is the case then the jacks, straps and other hardware is already on the market.  If you ar familiar with those sytems and they will not work then look at what the Miller Mono-cable Yarding System does.  This system will go around curves, sets up quickly, and does liitle damage to residual trees.
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

Furby

Ok, now you've got MY attention, Tillaway.
Do you have any links?

Tillaway

The only link to the Mono-Cable system is dead.  The company that made it is a forest management consulting / logging firm in Philomath, OR.  There is one of these units in operation near Lake Tahoe, CA.  They were also used for yarding Pacific Yew when taxol was first developed for fighting cancer.  Taxol was extracted from Yew bark, I think.

Basically the mono-cable system was designed to move pole sized logs.  If one person could lift the end of the log and attach it to the cable, then you could get it out of the woods.

It is basically commercial fishing gear slightly modified for woods work.  It consists of a power block used by west Coast crabbers mounted horizontal on a trailer instead of dangling from a boom.  A continuous loop of cable with stoppers attached ran through the woods supported by open blocks hung of of trees or between trees on nylon straps.  The blocks had fingers welded on the pulley to allow chokers clipped to the cable to pass the pulley without the cable jumping off.  The chokers were either rope or even bailing twine.  The rope chokers attached to the cable between the stoppers by way of a snap used to attach gangions to a commercial fishing long line.  The woods crew set the chokers and snap it to the line sending down to the power block were it was unsnapped.  The woods crew carried a bunch of chokers with them since they were light rope and chokers were sent back out by way of the snapping them to the cable on the outbound leg of the loop.  With baling twine they put a line cutter in front of the power block so the whole sytem didn't have to stop to drop the logs on the landing.

The multispan cable sytem is a skyline rigged with intermediate supports.  The rigging used for the intermediate supports may be what he wants to build.  This rigging supports a cable rigged usually between to trees, but can be rigged from one tree as well.

Paul H could explain how to rig it since he may have had experience doing it.  I know the therory but don't have the practical experience of actually doing it.  I have layed out harvest units where this was required to log it though.
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

Furby


robotguy

tillaway,, missed you @ the loggers conference (eugene) by a day ,, wanted to talk with you / that mono cable system is exactly what i was looking for  thanks!!!! / i did a search & found the w-site (dead)  you mention  paul  H , can you e-mail me his info or ph# as i would like to talk with him and anyone else who worked or is working with this system.

Tom

The best way to reach Paul H. is to leave him an IM. (instant Message)

Find a post he made and click on his name to get to his Profile or click on Members on the banner above.

If you find a post, you will find an icon below his name that will allow you to send an IM too.

Paul H is one of our administrators and will probably see your post eventually.

Paul_H

Hello,
I got your IM.You can use tree plates to help prevent damage to the bark.We made some from the front springs of an old Kenworth.The original type used on spar trees were pretty beefy(more than you will need)
I'll try to draw something up tonight or in the morning.Somewhere here I have a few pictures of the rigging for intermediate supports that I saw in Oregon.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Paul_H



I couldn't find a pic so here is a drawing of a tree plate.It has a hole for a railroad spike and the plate has a small lip on top that fits in a notch to help hold it up in the tree.If you use a smaller spike you will be able to pull it out later when you strip the tree.The spike more or less holds the plate in place until the tree strap tightens under load.

The curve in the bottom of the plate is to lay the strap in,to prevent it from sliding down the tree.



This top view is just to show how the plates can be spread around the tree.

Two tons is not a lot of weight and I don't think the strap will bite in too bad.The plates shown here look thicker that they need to be.They can be made of 3/8 -1/2" stock.The lip on top will help but isn't totally needed if you are worried about bark damage.
Because a tree is conical,once the plates are held,and the strap choked, the strap won't want to slide down the tree.You also have the option of wrapping thick rubber around the plates before you place the strap.

A section(s) from a 5 gal pail would work instead of the rubber.

Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Paul_H



This is a tree guard made from a plastic 55 gal barrel to protect the bark from damage as logs are yarded past.If you are worried about bark damage,it is best to avoid times when the sap is running (April till end of June)



Intermediate skyline support.
The line lays in the groove of the bar(similar to a chainsaw bar) which can swivel on the main support.It allows the carriage to pass over the support.The main support is suspended from a tree and held out with a guywire,or can be suspended by the block on top from a crotch line.



I took these pics in Oregon nine years ago with a cheap camera.I have a couple of blurry pics of the carriage that ran over top of the supports.I'll see if Jeff can tune them up.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Paul_H

robotguy,

Cable Yarding PDF link

Here is a great link that shows cable systems and equipment.The tree plates they show are a better type for your needs than we use,and it will show you anchors,,jacks,clamps and other goodies.

We never worried to much abour bark damage because the backspars were either harvested after use or left as a future snag for wildlife.(usually fell and harvested)

Good luck!

Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

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