LT40 Manual to Hydraulic Upgrades

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Im assuming you can Upgrade a New LT40 from a Manual Mill to a Hydraulic  for about the same total price over time  and buy and bolt in the parts from Wood Mizer  ??? Just a question I would like to clarify as I know there is a difference in the frame with the older models but is the new frame a standard one thanks ;)

Regards Chris

[MartyParsons]

Hello,
Wood-Mizer has some kits for the LT40, Hydraulic Back suports  (HCA) and Turner and the Log Loader  (HLA). The clamp and the hydraulic toe boards are not available -- Yet. The clamp would take some modifications to the frame if you wanted to get the full range of the opening of the clamp. The LT28 would not work because of the charging system on the engine. The LT35 does have a charging system (external).
Would LT40 owners be interested in purchasing these kits?
We see many owners move from the LT40 to a LT35HD and the LT40HD.
Thanks,
Marty
Sorry I am a little rushed. I can fill in some questions later.

[Road Runner]

Marty,  I have a 2004 manual LT40.  Are there plans for a hyd. kit for the clamp and toe boards in the near future?  I'm considering upgrading to hyd., but don't know if it would be better to add on or trade up.       

[DGK]

Hello Marty, I have a 2009 LT40G28 with hydraulic log loader. Yes, I would be interested in "kits" that upgrade my saw. I am aware that you can buy the clamp but am hesitant about the frame modification. How much range will I lose without cutting and welding the frame? I live in The Yukon and the idea of trading in my saw at the dealer for a hydraulic one is not practical. I am a believer in factory upgrades to equipment.

Regards,

Doug

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Thanks Marty As Doug and Road Runner said I reckon there would be fair demand for upgrades on the 40s iand im the same as Doug in being a firm beliver in factory upgrades for mills as thats what I have always liked with the Circular mills you can buy the basic mill and add what you want as you go and production demands increase without any dramas as all When you have a good Base to upgrade off trading in a mill is not required unless you want to go to a bigger model or higher production as a good mill can last a lifetime ;)

The 35 is the same base as the 40hyd and set up like for like contact strip apart from having the smaller Head Unit i take it ?? as like I said to you when we meet in PA at the AG Progress Days its alot off mill for the money and Jesi and I have it down to that and an LT15 with Electric feed and two Bed Extensions 30' cut as there is only about $110 per month difference in the payments between the 15 @$360 & 35 @$473 and the Hyd 40 was about $670 the way we had it set up The lt40 Manual was coming in at around the price off the 15 was about $360 a month roughly as it over 4 years and thats what got me thinking about buying a manual with the head setup the way we want and just adding as we go but I like the 35 just because its a tidy little mill with hydraulics and it will take the bed extensions as I feel we will be cutting some long stuff down the track  ;)

Thanks Again

Regards Chris

[Brucer]

Chris, I looked at converting my manual LT40 to hydraulic. The bolt-on log loader had just come out, but that was the only hydraulic upgrade option at the time. Here's what I came up with:

Loader - bolt-on package.
Side stops - buy spare parts for a hydraulic mill and install them.
Turner - buy spare parts for a hydraulic mill and install them. Possibly some drilling involved.
Toeboards - buy spare parts .... etc. Basically a bolt-on replacement.
Clamp - PROBLEM. You need to cut the frame and splice in a piece.

On top of all that, the loader package includes a simple hydraulic pump/reservoir/valve. Singular. To plan ahead for the whole works you'd want the hydraulic box, the pump/reservoir, and the valve block.

The issue of the clamp is this: To get the full travel you need four inches extra width between the "driver" side and the loader side. The outer frame is 4"x4" hollow structural steel. To accommodate the clamp the factory basically cuts a chunk out of the frame and shifts it over -- just a big enough piece to bolt the clamp rail to. There was no way I wanted to do that and risk getting the frame out of true.

Unfortunately, of all the manual devices on the mill, it was the clamp that I most wanted to change. Once a log was on the mill I could operate everything from the "driver" side except the clamp, so I'd have to walk around the mill to do that. It wouldn't be a big problem with a knowledgeable helper.

Also keep in mind that if you go the upgrade route, you are having to replace stuff on the mill -- not just add stuff.

- You'd need to replace at least two manual side stops with their hydraulic cousins.
- The turner would have to be replaced -- you might be able to salvage a couple of the old pieces but quite a bit of stuff have to swapped out.
- The manual toeboards AND the two bed rails they are mounted on would have to be replaced.
- The whole manual clamping system would have to be replaced.

So you're actually paying quite a bit extra by going the upgrade route.

In the end I sold my manual mill when demand went up (53 weeks after I bought it) and bought a hydraulic mill. A lot of folks will tell you that it's better to buy the hydraulic mill right off the bat. I don't agree, unless you are absolutely certain you will have enough work to pay for it.

I bought the manual mill from my own savings, but I needed to borrow to buy the hydraulic mill. During my first year what I earned wouldn't cover more than two months of loan payments. By the time I was ready for the hydraulic mill I had enough business to pay off a 60 month loan in 20 months. It was also much easier to get the loan since I had a proven track record.

One thing about my approach -- there was a lot of demand for a manual LT40 in those days. I don't know if there still is or not.

[Road Runner]

Brucer,  Thanks for the info.  Like you the clamp is what I would need the most, but I also would not want to cut and weld the frame.  I hope WM will come up with a bolt on clamp kit.  If I go with hyd. I would want to have it all though (turner, toeboards, stops, & loader).
I bought my manual LT40 about a year ago with plans to cut for myself and a small amout for friends/neighbors.  I think the manual has helped me as a sawyer by making me take my time and get personal with the logs (turning and clamping).  The manual mill is perfect for my personal sawing, but I'm now spending more time sawing for family and friends than for myself and I can see the need for hydraulics to make this profitable.
The perfect situation as I see it now would be an affordable add on kit package to convert to fully hyd.  This may not be posible, but I'll continue to dream and look at options (pineywoods).   

[Bump]

I have an lt40 manual the clamp assembly on mine is going to the way side with a bolt on assembly replacing it. It will be electric operated.

[pineywoods]

Having done this a few times,(3) I'll put in my 2 cents. You do have other options. The older mills can't accomodate the hydraulic clamp without extensive cutting and welding on the frame. don't even think about, go trade up. The last one I did was a 2009 lt40 manual. I bought all new materials for everything but a loader for just under $1000. If you aren't a welder, any good fab shop could put the pieces together in a day. Everything bolts on. Most of the labor involved is plain old plumbing. I have been asked to build a simple bolt-on turner/clamp in kit form. Could do, but I'm not the least bit interested. Got too many projects, without taking on another one.. ;D  If you need hydraulics and can't afford it, just do it, not exactly rocket science and there's no modifications to the mill. One ff member used my drawings and made up a turner/clamp for an EZ boardwalk. plumbed it up to the hydraulics on his tractor .

[Bibbyman]

I've added a log turner an a single blade toe board to a manual LT40. I've done a lot of mods to the LT40HD.

But the best way to add hydraulics to a manual mill is to drop the hitch on the ball of the new customer's truck and buy a hydraulic mill - new or used.

[Brucer]

I suspect you could install the hydraulic clamp on a manual mill by cutting 4" off the tube the clamp runs on. I wouldn't want to do it myself -- that's 4" of clamping room you'd be giving up.

[bandmiller2]

I do think a bandsaw manuf. would get a leg up in this industry by offering a manual mill fully upgradable to hyd. That way someone could start off reasonable and if thing grew add units as needed to full hydraulic. Frank C.

[beenthere]

Can people buy a fully hydraulic mill less all the hydraulics now?

Seems that if they can, then what you suggest might be available now. ;)

Likely the components of the hydraulics are so integrated and require heavier frame that it just isn't practical of it'd be available now.

[js2743]

A mill with the option of a full upgrade later on would be a good idea. They could use the same frame as a full HD mill and advertise it as a upgrade model. might cost a lil extra but would be worth it if someone had plans later on to add to it. This way the mill could grow if the persons sawing business grew.

[Amelia Farms]

Bump, I'd love to see what you are doing with the electric clamp. I have been thinking along those lines myself.

[Bump]

I have a bad leg so the running around the entire mill to fight with the manual clamp with a bad hand. By the end of my first the cuss factor had exhausted my vocabulary and my patients. Having both of my older brothers being machines and they enjoy building stuff I'm an electrical engineer the log clamp wasn't there very long.

[Bump]

Just so there isn't a miss understanding I purchased my 40 used as a manual mill with 60 hours on it looking like it just rolled out of WM for less then 1/3 price of a new one. Going in I new the clamp mite be a issue for me but for a saw I could by with cash out of my pocket I purchased it anyways. The locking tabs and the rotation doesn't look to be a problem for people with two functional hands then through in the spring chain to hold the clamp in position it is intended for a person with both hands.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Thanks for the responses Everyone  ;) ;D 8)  PineyWoods,Bruce,Bibby thanks for you posts as you have been there before with upgrading the 40s I have used a couple in the past the most i spent on one was about 2000hrs on an early LT40Super15E and it was an older one with the flip up clamp ;)

Bibby I gotta laugh out of the just unhook it off the tow ball and just hook up to an upgraded one sound like the way to go Mate  ;) :D  I think its a done decision with the mill now as WM has the deal going on the LT40Hyd at $23995 the only things We might add to that would be a little more Hp either the 38g or a 35Diesel  ;) ;D

Bruce I hear you on how hard it is to start up a business Mate    ;) We have been putting feelers out across alot of different areas from pallet lumber, ties & dunnage for large steel mills to contract cutting  odd sizes and long lengths on contract for afew larger mills and log export companies we are also going to get a website ;) I think we will be able to keep as busy as we want to be as Im at about 19years now since I started sawing so I think the experience helps when your first contacting other businesses looking for sawing work or supplying a product they need . You also brought up a big thing which is Working Capital and Cashflow Its all the more important when you are making sawmilling your sole source of income Jesi and I will be fine in that department as we will have enough  to buy something like a 70 and Edger with cash but sometimes its better to start small and use finance to your advantage the ideal situation I see down the track is having a Lucas and the LT40 portables and most likely a Static Circular Mill for lower value higher production work We are just going to take our time and see where the business goes though  ;) ;D You never know it could be a couple of 70s I loved using Jakes when I was at their place they are a bloody nice Mill to operate ;) 8)

Regards Chris

[MartyParsons]

Hello,
  WM has discussed this some, a customer who purchases a new mill usually does not do any up grades to his mill during ownership. A customer who purchases a used mill does add some extra features at some time during his ownership. So I guess it is all about capital available for purchase of equipment and accessories.
I always see many of you post when someone asks "what mill should I purchase", your answer "purchase the mill with the most options that you can afford". So if you purchase a used mill at a less than new price then you have some extra to invest in accessories.
There are some other things in the mix, like welding to the frame and installing the parts correctly and providing tech support on a mill that has been modified.
This is interesting. If you have more ideas I am sure WM will listen.
Thanks for the post.
Marty

[MotorSeven]

Marty, I think the number one thing us manual mill owners want is a bolt/weld on electric log turner. Most of us have tractors or loaders so we don't need log loading help. Power feed isn't high on my list, but I swear I dream of pushing a button and flipping a log ;D

[paul case]

I used to dream of that too.
Dream came true and about a month ago I bought a 94 lt40 hd. WOW what a difference. What used to hurt my back and take a lot of time now is just the push of a lever.
Guys,
You will pay for log turning one way or another. PC

[Meadows Miller]

Paul its Either Your Back or Your Wallet  ;) Plus this Ole Sawyers gettin too old for that hey Mate  ;) :D :D

[MotorSeven]

"You will pay for log turning one way or another"


Ain't that the truth!

[Magicman]

I turned several Cypress logs this week that required the log turner and the two plane log clamp in tandem to roll them over.  I love hydraulics. 

[Meadows Miller]

Moto have you made an electric winch type turner for your mill  Mate  ??? as that was what I was going to do if we got the LT15 as I was going to weld up a trailer and make a pocket for an uplift jib type type turner just slip it in and hook a 6 to 8000lbs winch upto the battery wrap the cable round the log a couple of times and push the button same goes for loading log but you just hoo it back onto the trailer frame Mate   ;)

[pineywoods]

Stuff you would love to add to an older bandmill

1 Log turner/clamp
2 Powered Toe roller
3 powered backstops
4 simple cheap setworks
5 sawdust blower
6 simple cheap remote console.
7 bed extension

On the older woodmizers, almost none of the factory parts will fit without extensive welding/cutting. Not a good idea
The killer on the first 3 items is a source of power. Not much way to use the main engine. If you are fixed, electric motor driving a hydraulic pump is probably the most feaseable. For portable use, there is 12volt dc power or a small gas engine. 12v dc has a whole bunch of drawbacks, I favor a small gas engine mounted in a separate unit with quick disconnect hoses.  ie, use your log splitter ?
I'm still looking for a way to add a simple setworks to my old mill. The new simple setworks looks like just the ticket, alas it won't adapt without a bunch of re-work.
I hate shoveling sawdust in a fixed location. I do have a sawdust blower, but has some inherent problems. It uses a long flex hose which is constantly tearing somewhere. Lots of duct tape. There has to be a way to use rigid thin wall pipe.
Remote console - do-able for a few hundred bucks, I have one, but found it to be almost useless without setworks.
Bed extension--The factory 6 footer will fit after a fashion, but it's a continuous hassle to keep it aligned. One FF member has come up with a jig to install alignment pins that solves the problem...There's pics and descriptions in the sawmill forum. 

Notice there is no mention of a log loader. Money better spent on a tractor or something with forks.

Mary Parsons makes some valid points. Support for an up-graded mill could get to be a real problem, especially during installation. Up-grading at a service center might make more sense.

Then there is the cost factor. At what point is it better to take bibby's approach just swap for a later model..

[MotorSeven]

MM, no, I just use a 60 & 78" Logrite. If they are really big I wrap a chain on them and turn them very carefully with the tractor forks. It works and is a little time consuming, but it sure beats standing around waiting for a few neighbors to come and help ;)

In all honesty I would much rather upgrade. But, I built my own extension so I can cut out to 26-ish feet, so if I want a LT35HD to do that it's gonna cost a lot of $ on top of the mill price.

[Meadows Miller]

Keep the 15 for the long stuff thats what I was going to do if we got a 15  ;) ;D ;D 8) 8)

[Brucer]

WM has discussed this some, a customer who purchases a new mill usually does not do any up grades to his mill during ownership.

I guess I'm one of the exceptions, Marty. But I wonder if one reason people don't do upgrades is that the upgrades they want aren't available.

I started with the intention of running a part-time, money making business. I didn't have the budget for anything more than an LT40 manual and I was not sure how much market there would be in any case. As it turned out, there wasn't much of a market at first. However, I began to create a new market after about 6 months, and after another 6 months I was at the point where I could use some additions.

• My first priority was a hydraulic clamp, to save walking around the mill. Not available, because the frame would have to be modified.
• My second priority was a debarker. That was available.
• Third priority was a hydraulic loader. That had just become available as a bolt-on kit.

However, without the hydraulic clamp, or at least a clamp that could be operated from the "driver's side", I didn't want to invest in any other upgrades. Note: I would have been able to do the first upgrade if the LT40 manual had the same frame as an LT40 hydraulic.

The upshot was that I upgraded the whole mill by buying a hydraulic LT40 with a debarker.

• Within 6 months I had added an autoclutch.
• The following year I added a remote dragback (salvaged off a Super-Hydraulic).
• Shortly after that I added the front and rear Fine Adjust Outriggers (new style). If I was still doing a lot of mobile work I would have added the other four FAO's later.
• Three years ago I added a 6' extension. Two years ago I added a second 6' extension.
• Last year I added a solenoid to the gravity feed lube system (poor man's LubeMizer).

Over the years I have been constantly improving my material handling capabilities. I'm at the point where there is not point in doing more sawmill upgrades until I speed up material handling even more. But when that point comes, here's what I would likely do ...

• Home-built "booster" loader for the first extension. I have a bolt-on design that could incorporated a lot of WM parts. This could be offered as a kit.
• Home-built tie-rod to link the side stop on the first extension to the main side-stop system. This could be offered as a kit as well.
• Home-made bolt-on roller system for offloading long timbers from the back end of the mill (using a lot of WM parts).

And then ...

• Upgrade head and power feed motors, along with the battery and alternator.
• Add a second hydraulic pump.
• Add Accuset 2.
• Convert to remote operator station.
• When I finally wear out the 28 HP gas engine, upgrade to a diesel.

In effect I would be building a super-hydraulic mill. Why not simply trade up to a Super? Because I can do the change in affordable increments, interrupting the upgrade if I get hit with another economic downturn.

There is no particular reason to do the upgrades in that order -- it happens to be the one to suit my operation.

You mentioned that a lot of people advise to buy "the most mill you can afford". So what if a first-time sawyer invests a lot of money and finds out the interest isn't there, or the work isn't there? Now he/she has a big (and possibly embarrassing) investment that  isn't earning its keep. By offering a completely upgradable mill (based on the LT40) you may pick up quite a few customers -- for new mills and for upgrades. I wouldn't be surprised if such a mill would have a pretty good resale value as well.

[stumpy]

I have a manual LT30 with the hand crank log turner.  I simply replaced the manual crank with a 2500# electric winch.  It works great and was relatively cheap.

[Bump]

The buss rail and a RF control module are my current add on got the simple set love it and with the power from the head and full remote RF control using a control logics plc and remote I/O for bed/material handling. I'm big on using barcodes from the butts to side of milled lumber. For the clamp Thompson linear bearings and a single flip up clamp just as on the sawers side.

[Ohio_Bill]

Wow Bump , You have been busy on your LT40 . I would love to see some pictures of modifications. Sounds great.