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Cost per board foot for timbers?

Started by ziggy, January 26, 2012, 04:57:06 PM

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ziggy

I searched the forums for some information on this subject but wasn't successful -- hopefully I'm not missing something.

Anyway, my question is thus: what do you pay (on average) per board foot for rough sawn timber?

I got two quotes recently, and was pretty shocked by the disparity between the two.

One mill gave me a quote of roughly $.50 a board foot for white oak, red and black oak. They don't do very much milling for timber frames at all, and it's possible I haven't asked them the right questions about their operations... and now I'm wondering if this is the best choice because...

The second source quoted a full three times that price, or about $1.50 a board foot, for a complete white oak frame. This fellow has built a timber frame before, is more selective about logging, all about centering the heart wood, etc.  He's got the experience, but also said I would probably be fine to go with the cheaper guys, because he is just much "pickier"...

Hrmm. That's a pretty huge price difference, and I guess my next step is to really question the first source more about their milling operation.

But the affordability is a huge question, and the $1.50 guy would probably be over my affordability threshold.

What do you pay, on average, per board foot of sawn timber?

beenthere

ziggy
What are your specs for the rough-sawn timber?

Certainly your specs will make a difference in what you will pay.
Without specs, the one supplier may be giving you all timbers that have large knots, some or a lot of wane, decay, holes, splits, checks, and warp. May just be the offall from selling the better timbers to a buyer who will pay $1.50. ;)

The timber supplier who knows what you will need for a frame list may be culling out all the board footage that won't go into a frame, saving you the task of culling poor material.

Maybe come up with your specs and contact the 50 cent supplier to see if you can buy only material that meets your specs.

Just a thought.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Brad_bb

$1.50 is a good price for timbers sawn correctly that will meet the grading standard for what you need.

The key is that both you and the sawyer understand the grade requirements so that there is not confusion and you get the right quality of timbers you need.

NLMA rules are a good place to start.  I posted the link recently to their grade rules for timbers in this thread  https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,55038.0.html
Another resource to know what you need for a given timber is Chappell's or Sobon's books that where they talk about visual grading and grain runout. 

You should provide cut list which separates your pieces by grade/cut specs.  For example a post is in compression and can deal with more knots and location of knots that a horizontal beam cannot.  Horizontal beams can be in tension or compression depending on the location and frame design.  Undoubtedly there will be some degree of bending stress.  Other factors to consider are joint designs.  You cannot have large defects in your joints especially if there is tension.  So you will need beams with enough extra to be able to adjust your joint locations to stay away from such defects.
This is just general stuff to give you an idea.  $1.50 to $1.80 seems to be the going rate, but some charge extra due to the extra handling of large timbers.

For $.50, be careful/wary you aren't getting the low or below grade wood or a fly by night kind of person.  Make sure you are talking the same language as far as specs and how it will be cut.  Sounds too low to me.

I bought reclaimed hardwood beams a few years ago, good stuff for $.90 delivered and I thought I got a steal there.  I'm sure it cost him more than that to properly salvage them, but I lucked out as he lost his storage and needed to sell.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Jim_Rogers

You may need to view each person's timbers to see if they are quality timber or not.

Prices are very region specific. What you'd pay $1.50 for in your area, could be $2.75 in my area.

It's hard to compare over a great distance over the Internet.

Jim Rogers

PS. welcome to the forestry forum timber framing section...
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Peter Drouin

Hi ziggy I cut timber frames all the time, pine or hemlock starts at .70 a bf to 16' long . then the longer beams $ a bf gos up. all the way to 4.00 a bf . like a 32' beam with no pith or sapwood, 4.00 a bf all day not delivered. now for hard wood, well that will start at 1.50 up to alot. and I can get that but the wood has to the best grade, and thats all I work with, some men work with the lower grade and the money is not there but the work is the same. but if you like big knots and some men do thats ok too just my 2 cents. good luck to ya :) :) :) :)
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Brucer

I charge $1.50 per BF for Douglas-Fir timbers, #1 structural, up to 8x10 boxed heart and up to 20' long. Above 8x10 the price will start to go up. Over 20' the price will start to go up. I buy the very best logs I can.

Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Kansas

In order to sell lumber at 50 cents a board foot, they have to be nothing more than pallet type logs. I don't cut railroad ties, but from what I have seen on the board, they get not far from that in price. And those are a lot shorter than much of what you would need. I don't build timber frames, but we have cut a fair number of beams for them. Intuition tells me you do want to go with someone that makes a good beam.

I do have a question for the timber framers. On an average house, what percentage cost is the cost of the timbers (not installation) to the total cost of all the materials for a house, and the percentage for the finished product? I get approached by people wanting to build timber frames from time to time. I suspect its a low percentage, but don't know for sure.

Jim_Rogers

I have heard that cost as a percent many years ago. And I don't remember it now.

It is one that should be revisited.
I'll see if I can fine anything about it.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Jim_Rogers

From another forum (TFG)
I found this post about the cost of the frame including joinery based on a bdft cost:

"For years we have been using a per board foot basis for estimating frame costs and it works well for us. Our feeling is we are timber framers so we base our price on how much timber we frame. Depending on job size, timber species and complexity of joinery we use $7-9/BF (US). I don't know how well that works in your situation but it would at least give you a WAG at the cost for framing."

I can't find it as a percent right now.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

logman

Too many variables, depends on who's cutting the timbers, what kind of wood, who's cutting the joinery.  Jim says one company quotes $7-9 per bd. ft. for a frame.  That's pretty close to what I could cut a frame for priced by the sq. ft. of the frame.  I worked alone and had very little overhead.
LT40HD, 12' ext, 5105 JD tractor, Genie GTH5519 telehandler
M&K Timber Works

losttheplot

The book "A Timber framer's Workshop" by Steve Chappell has some frame plans in it.
A 24' x 36' "Hammer beam Cape" has a ground floor of 864sqft and a loft of about 480sqft for a total of 1344sqft. (outside dimensions)
The cut list for the timbers has a total of 5918 bdft.

Using a price of $1.50 per bdft for a total of $8877 for the timbers.
Price of timber divided by sq ft of house $6.60 per sq ft

For a high spec house the appliances would likely cost more than the timbers.

However,  5918 bdft x $8 for some one to cut the frame would be $47,366.


DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU THINK !

Kansas

I think that tells me what I need to know for the cost of timbers for a moderate sized house. We get occasional queries, including wannabe do-it-yourself people. Sounds like the cost of beams is not really going to be an issue for the total cost of the house.

Brucer

And my price of $1.50 per BF for timbers is for rough sawn, picked up at my site. Planing and joinery are the big ticket items on the actual frame.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Stumpkin

I have found that having good quality timber, well sawn (boxed heart, square) may cost a little more, but it will save time and labor in the layout, cutting and assembly of a frame. Labor costs are a much higher percentage of the overall cost of the frame than the cost of the timber. Using better timber can actually save you money. This is especially true with more complicated frames with compound roof systems.

7-9 $ - Bd./ft. sounds about right. There are many different styles of timber frame and some designs use a lot more timber (bd./ft.) per Sq. ft. than others. Sq./ft. estimates for timber frames can be tricky because of so many variables.
"Do we know what we're doing and why?"
"No"
"Do we care?"
"We'll work it all out as we go along. Let our practice form our doctrine, thus assuring precise theoretical coherence."      Ed Abbey

logman

The way I approach pricing a frame is that I break it down to how many timbers I can complete in a day.  I figure out how many days it will take, add in the cost of the timbers, pegs and whatever else I'll need and come up with a price.  I could never justify charging $7-9 per bd ft.  I have a 10x18 porch addition to do which has about 1400 bd ft of timbers.  It would be great to get about 10,000 for it and I'm sure some people would pay that but I don't think too many jobs like that would come along. 
LT40HD, 12' ext, 5105 JD tractor, Genie GTH5519 telehandler
M&K Timber Works

Jim_Rogers

Quote from: Jim_Rogers on February 12, 2012, 10:42:41 AM
I have heard that cost as a percent many years ago. And I don't remember it now.

It is one that should be revisited.
I'll see if I can fine anything about it.

Jim Rogers

I just spent some time on the phone with a local timber framer friend of mine who has done more houses and barns than I have.

He said that the percent of the total cost of a house; that the frame is, can range from 10% up 25% of the total cost of the building.

It depends on everything else going on the frame. Door, windows, sips or not, roofing, size of frame, house or barn, heated or unheated. There are too many variables in order to get more specific then this.

He also said that on average a timber frame home would cost 20% more than a stick built home. But again it all depends on everything else.

If you have a plain frame without any fancy chamfers on timbers or other labor intensive items then the cost may be less.

I hope that helps you some.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

ziggy

Thanks for all of the replies.

I am going ahead with the cheaper mill, having felt more confidence after I spelled out some details with the fellow at the mill to make sure we were on the same page.

I made sure to specify that all the timbers would be free from knots/splits/etc. at the ends, the heartwood would be boxed, things would be straight and square, etc. He was confident that the quality would be what I was looking for.

The other day I went to see some of the first milled timbers (to inspect, and then to give the go-ahead for the remainder) and was pleased with the results. Granted, it's rough sawn, so it will take more work to make smooth and shiny (if that is what I am going for, that's not yet decided), but the timbers are straight, square, and knot-free.

All for a price of about $.60/board foot. I don't think I can beat that. It's all white oak, too, by the way.

Here's a picture: LINKS TO OFFSITE PHOTOS NOT ALLOWED

Jim_Rogers

Zigggy:
You're going to need to create a gallery and put your pictures in there, here on the forum.
Off site pictures are not allowed.
thanks
Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Heartwood

We pay $.75 to $1.25 per bd. ft. (depending on dimension and length) for mill run (#2 or better) Eastern White Pine, rough, in western MA. Excellent sawyer; within 1/16" of square and nominal throughout.
Frame prices are based on this cost plus a cost per joint, with three levels of adjustment factors (.5, 1 and 1.5) depending on the complexity of the joint.
We know how long it takes us to layout and cut a joint, so we base the larger part of the frame cost on the amount of joinery, not the board footage.

bill m

Heartwood,  Where in western Ma. are you?
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

Jim_Rogers

Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

meadowstream

Heartwood, where do you buy your rough-sawn timbers?  I am building a small timber frame and the mill I bought from last time (Cowl's) stopped their sawmill operations... Thanks!

bill m

Great Brook Lumber in Southwick Ma. can saw anything you want. They may even have it in stock.
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

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