iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Logging my own land in KY...where to start?

Started by kentuckydiesel, January 24, 2012, 02:45:19 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

kentuckydiesel

My wife and I bought a little 30 acre place last summer, about 20 of which is mature timber.  I have been considering logging the property, but if I do choose to do this, I would like to handle it myself rather than sell the standing timber to a logging company.

I come from an AG background, (was a plant and soil science major at UK until fuel prices got too high for me to drive to that school) have good experience felling trees, am a very capable machine operator, have a fair understanding of measurements for board feet, have some understanding of log grading, etc, etc...but the things I have no idea about are:

1) The legalities...The Kentucky Division of Forestry website says that any commercial logging site has to have at least one person who has gone through their "Master Logger" class.  Do these "commercial logging" rules apply to someone logging their own land?     

2) The sale of logs...What are the steps normally taken to sell logs? 
Do you usually have multiple buyers for specific species out of a mixed hardwood lot, or do you find one buyer for it all?  Do you buck the logs after a buyer looks at them, or do you have some common length that you usually go with?  I guess the underlying question here is, which comes first, the buyer or the log?

I'm sure I have more questions, but these are all that come to mind at the moment.
BTW, I tried to upload a picture of our property to the gallery so you guys could get some idea of what I'm working with, but it says I don't have permission...guess that will have to wait.

Thanks,
Phillip
Stihl 024 Woodboss
Homelite EZ-Automatic
Homelite Super 1050
John Deere 5200 MFWD w/540 loader
Northern Hydraulics wood splitter
'95 F350 CC DRW 4x4 Powerstroke
'85 F250 4x4, 6.9 diesel, Western Plow
'87 F800 w/dump, plow, and salter
Vermont Castings Defiant Encore 2190

Norm

You'll need to set up your own gallery to add pictures here.

Some good tutorials here. https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,23851.0.html

Hopefully someone from your state will be along shortly to answer your questions. My guess is the first one does not apply to you as it's not a commercial operation but I'll wait for those in your area to answer for sure.

Welcome aboard!

kentuckydiesel

Okay, unfortunately all my pictures of the woods are at home on my other computer, but here are a few pictures to start.


 


 


 

-Phillip
Stihl 024 Woodboss
Homelite EZ-Automatic
Homelite Super 1050
John Deere 5200 MFWD w/540 loader
Northern Hydraulics wood splitter
'95 F350 CC DRW 4x4 Powerstroke
'85 F250 4x4, 6.9 diesel, Western Plow
'87 F800 w/dump, plow, and salter
Vermont Castings Defiant Encore 2190

Raider Bill

The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

stavebuyer

Logging your own ground..under 10 acres harvest Master Logger exempt. You can get a temp Master Logger card before taking the class by signing up for the next class and paying the fee.

Know what your going to cut, who you will market your logs to and their specifications before you fell the first tree.

If it were me..I would only be doing a timber stand improvement cut unless my personal circumstances required me to harvest crop trees. The log lumber/market is pretty soft.


gspren

I have the same or a little more woodland as you and all the equipment needed to log but the best move I made 15 years ago when I wanted to sell some timber was to get an independent consulting Forester in to look things over and tell me what I should do. He told me what I should cut and what I shouldn't cut plus he knew what mills would be interested in buying. I then decided to let him handle the sale and let the mill cut there own timber. I then cut and sold some fire wood from the tops and junk trees the forester recomended removing. I think I made more money than if I would have tried to do it all myself. Good luck.
Stihl 041, 044 & 261, Kubota 400 RTV, Kubota BX 2670, Ferris Zero turn

stavebuyer

Your best bet is to contact the KY division of forestry and have them evaluate and mark your timber. As a non-commercial landowner the cost is very low and you'll learn alot. It's an exciting opportunity..just take your time..after you have sold them isn't the time to learn.

Shotgun

Quote from: gspren on January 24, 2012, 05:23:21 PM
I have the same or a little more woodland as you and all the equipment needed to log but the best move I made 15 years ago when I wanted to sell some timber was to get an independent consulting Forester in to look things over and tell me what I should do. He told me what I should cut and what I shouldn't cut plus he knew what mills would be interested in buying. I then decided to let him handle the sale and let the mill cut there own timber. I then cut and sold some fire wood from the tops and junk trees the forester recomended removing. I think I made more money than if I would have tried to do it all myself. Good luck.

gspren, Your observation is very astute.  Get a consulting forester involved up front.  Many folks think they know enough to get by, but if the truth were known, they lost more $$$ than they would have getting a forester involved.  You hear this time and time again.  Thanks for bringing it up again.

Bottom line here - "You go cheap, you get cheap!"       ;)

Good luck.

Norm
Joined The Forestry Forum 5 days before 9/11.

mills

Hello kentuckydiesel!

You can harvest timber on your personal property without a master logger license, but I think you are restricted to 10,000 bft per year. My dealings with the people running the kentucky master logger program have been very positive. There are a couple of contact numbers on their web page. Give them a call, and I'm sure they'll answer most of your basic legal questions.

I'm reading your post and getting the immpression that you are wanting to do this as a hobby. Take time to visit some local mills to learn what they need, how they buy it, how they want it bucked, and more important, who you want to deal with.

Oh, and a, be careful what you for, its got a way of getting in your blood.

Have fun!

kentuckydiesel

Thanks for all the advice! 
I do intend to do my research/learn all I can before any trees come down, aside from timber stand improvement of course.  I did see a number of trees which could stand to come down as I walked some of the property this evening...that and a whole lot of vines I need to take care of.  I also noticed that some asshat had nailed a bunch of boards to a nice hickory so he could have a shoddy tree stand.   >:(  Oh well, there are more trees out there.

I'm in no big rush...really just want to be able to do this over time to get some extra income, and depending on how it turns out, I may try to buy a 10-15 acre tract adjoining our place on the cheap, as it's kinda landlocked by the terrain. 

-Phillip
Stihl 024 Woodboss
Homelite EZ-Automatic
Homelite Super 1050
John Deere 5200 MFWD w/540 loader
Northern Hydraulics wood splitter
'95 F350 CC DRW 4x4 Powerstroke
'85 F250 4x4, 6.9 diesel, Western Plow
'87 F800 w/dump, plow, and salter
Vermont Castings Defiant Encore 2190

stavebuyer

I gave a lot of thought to this after making my initial posts. There is no "one size answer" and much of it depends on you. From a business standpoint most people would be better off letting a consultant handle the sale and the pro's handle the work. I bought a hundred acres of a 200 acre tract the landowner sold to cover the losses the landowners son LOST trying to log the the 1st hundred. Borrowed money on wore out equipment and no experience. At least no one got hurt or killed. Having said that none of this is rocket science and nothing a person experienced owning and operating equipment can't learn.

The positives of doing it yourself include doing the work when and how YOU want it done. Many times that has very little to do with most per bd/ft or forest management particularly on a small tract that may have mutiple uses. What works on a large tract is seldom practical on a smaller one. The state foresters in my district are very fond of using a "shelterwood cut" for regeneration. Works very well for regeneration but the handful of white oak veneer trees left as seed trees aren't going to be of much value unless the landowner can harvest them himself in few years.
If you do the work yourself you'll most likely end up with less cash in hand and hopefully equity in equipment. Only you can decide if thats in your best interest. Like any other small business venture you'll need to wear all the hats to have a sucessful outcome.

thecfarm

Big difference between ME and KY. But I think the idea is just about the same.When I was cutting on my own land no safety courses are required. But a good idea if you don't know how to cut trees down and buck to grade.But I have to follow all of the state laws that the big time loggers do. Intent to harvest,paper work to move the logs,and the end of the year report on what and how much was cut. No big deal to do all this,quite easy,just a phone call to the state. Keep all of your scale slips too. No hoops to jump thorugh. I myself found it was easier to sell to a place that buys it all. If  I was cutting softwood and a hardwood tree was in the way,I could get rid of it. All sawmills,pulp mills etc want it as soon as you can get it to them. They don't want it sitting around turning gray. They want it fresh. Which is kinda hard on a small scale. You really have to go to work and than come home and cut wood and spend just about all weekend on it too. I was only cutting about 5-8000 a month. I only have a tractor and I'm fuzzy REAL too. Takes longer to fool around with the small stuff. I use to cut so called roads for my big pine to fall into. I would cut all of the small wood and than cut the big pine down.I was lucky,my Father kinda knew what to do and our trucker helped us out a lot on where to take some of our junk logs to. I would not rush into this. takes alot of time to learn the correct way to cut wood. What do you have to get the logs out with? Need a good road for the trucks, a place for them to turn around,need a wood yard.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

kentuckydiesel

Part of the deal is the terrain.  Most of the good trees are on a steep hillside where they will either have to be winched up or down the hill depending on distance/safety factors.  I already have a tractor-JD 5200 4x4, 45hp, 540 loader with forks, flipped the two piece front and rear wheels for maximum width (tires are spread wider than the wheelbase is long), rears fluid filled, cast iron wheel weights too.  I'm used to 75-100hp tractors for utility type work, but this little tractor has surprised me.
I'm planning to build a nice winch for it (I run a fabrication shop during the day).

Given the terrain, I would much rather do this myself partially because I don't want things torn up like a logging company did on my grandparent's farm when I was a kid...even for similar cash profit.

Thanks,
Phillip       
Stihl 024 Woodboss
Homelite EZ-Automatic
Homelite Super 1050
John Deere 5200 MFWD w/540 loader
Northern Hydraulics wood splitter
'95 F350 CC DRW 4x4 Powerstroke
'85 F250 4x4, 6.9 diesel, Western Plow
'87 F800 w/dump, plow, and salter
Vermont Castings Defiant Encore 2190

submarinesailor

KD,

You need to check you manual on changing the front tires around.  If I remember correctly they don't like it if you run the loader with the tires in the wide position.  Something about messing up the front axle.  Don't know if it's that way on you bigger tractor, but I'm fairly sure it is on the JD 4520 with the 410 loader.

Bruce

kentuckydiesel

Quote from: submarinesailor on January 25, 2012, 06:55:50 PM
KD,

You need to check you manual on changing the front tires around.  If I remember correctly they don't like it if you run the loader with the tires in the wide position.  Something about messing up the front axle.  Don't know if it's that way on you bigger tractor, but I'm fairly sure it is on the JD 4520 with the 410 loader.

Bruce

According to the manual it's okay on the 5200...but maybe not the 2x4 as I heard they had problems breaking spindles with heavy loader work.

-Phillip
Stihl 024 Woodboss
Homelite EZ-Automatic
Homelite Super 1050
John Deere 5200 MFWD w/540 loader
Northern Hydraulics wood splitter
'95 F350 CC DRW 4x4 Powerstroke
'85 F250 4x4, 6.9 diesel, Western Plow
'87 F800 w/dump, plow, and salter
Vermont Castings Defiant Encore 2190

thecfarm

Just some more insight on logging. Sorry to hear of your grandparents land. A good neat job can be done. I had my logged at 2 different times by the same guy. I use to walk his jobs for 20 years when he was close to me. A nice job was done every time. Yes,there was some damage,due to heavy equipment and falling trees,but it looked good. Like I said I cut wood with 40 hp NH and I can go where he has cut. I am very fussy with my land and my trees. A 3pt winch is great to have. Lucky that you have the know how to build one. I use my alot.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Spalted Dog

We just did the same thing on our family farm.  I had similar questions.  We decided to hire a consulting Forester.  I feel that we made the right decision.  He marked the trees, I fell and skidded, he marked the logs, I bucked, he marketed and handled the sale.  It is a lot of work but you will get to know every square inch of your property and will see what all needs to be done in the future.  By cutting yourself you can decide if you want to keep a tree or two for whatever reason.   We worked ours in phases, it started with a cutting of the worst trees, not much value, but it will improve the stand greatly, also give you a chance to hone your skills or work the cobwebs out.  Then we worked the rest that were ready trees.  He has left us with a very nice stand coming that will be ready in only a few years.  We only are cutting the walnut this time, but we have a very nice variety as well as remaining mature walnut.

I now will be working on thinning the unmarketable trees (many species) for firewood, or some sawlogs.  This will help the next harvest grow much faster. 

I am now working with the Forester on small tracts of land that the larger companies do not want to work on in our area.

All in all it was a great experience.  I will also add- If you are not proficient with cutting and all the hazards involved, I will advise you to think strongly about hiring a professional-if you do it yourself work slow, methodical, and SAFE.
The older I get the less I used to know.

Thank You Sponsors!