Diesel truck, PU or CC?

[gspren]

 I will use Ford for the example but it's true for GM and Mopar also. I currently have a F350 dually PU that I use for hauling whatever needs hauled plus pulling various trailers the biggest being a 34 Ft 5th wheel camper. I thought about next truck getting a chassis cab with small aluminum flatbed with underbed tool boxes. Now the questions that dealers can't answer. First, why do chassis cabs have 20-25 percent less HP and torque than a PU with the same engine? Second, which will get better mileage and make me happier when towing the camper or equipment trailer? There must be a reason that the CCs all have detuned engines.

[snowstorm]

to make them last longer. i have 2 04 fords 6.0    the f250 makes 325hp the f550 makes 275hp. a 550 is wayyyyyy better than a 350. got one of those also. the 6.0 was built by ih navistar in there trucks they called it a vt365 there hp rating was maybe 225hp goverened at 3000rpm? in a ford at 325hp they spin to 4200rpm

[ScottAR]

What Snowstorm said.  They are detuned as they are likely to be hauling a load often/constantly.  A local I know has a
F350 with a service bed... The truck with his tools in it weighs over 10k. 

It's all about duty cycle.  A 5.9 cummins in a dodge pickup is rated over 300hp.  In a 1150 case dozer it's rated for 115ish. 

[scgargoyle]

Just a heads-up- I was looking at a hi-cube van to use for a couple years, and my insurance company required a whole different (and more expensive) policy for a 'commercial vehicle. They would insure up to an E-350, but only with 4 wheels. They will insure a dually pick-up, but not a flat-bed (????)

[TreeWinder]

Just a heads-up- I was looking at a hi-cube van to use for a couple years, and my insurance company required a whole different (and more expensive) policy for a 'commercial vehicle. They would insure up to an E-350, but only with 4 wheels. They will insure a dually pick-up, but not a flat-bed (????)

True for some,  State Farm hit me up with a commercial policy for a F-350 dually cause it had flat dump.  Told them it was for occassional use and they said it was commercial so 3x the cost.

Ed

[gspren]

  So which one is better while pulling the camper? It is a full profile 5th wheel 8ft wide 13ft tall and near 8 ton. Fuel economy is important but so is safety and comfort.

[Lambee10]

I gotta jump in on this one..

You will need to look at the insurance issues the guys mentioned.  I beleive a 350 with regular bed and a 350 with a flat bed will not show a differenece in the fuel economy while towing.  The wind turbulance is mostly around the truck and trailer and not between them.  You mention the hi profile front on the fw.  that is essentally a wall.  An air dam on the roof will really help move the air up and over the front of he unit.

I was in the RV industry for 15 years (dealership owner for 10) and sold many FW's from 5000 lbs to 18k.   The commercials you see on tv showing a 1/2 ton truck stating they can pull 11,000 pounds really bothers me.  Forget the fact that the truck does not have enough weight should the brakes fail and you need to stop a 10000 lbs (yes everyone buys as big as they can get) trailer on a curve, in the mountains, in the rain.  You will be looking out the drivers door into the entrance door of the camper- which will be beside you.
The problem that is not discussed is the ability of the frame of the truck to handle the weight.  If you have a fifth wheel or gooseneck with a load of horses or cows (whatever) going down the road at 50-60 mph and you hit a dip or go over RR tracks, the momentary downward pressure on the frame is tremendous.  Look around at trucks and you will see the gap between the cab and bed narrow at the top and wider at the bottom.  Bent frame.

Point is, get the right truck for the job and know the weight ratings of the vehicle.  The owners manual is the best bet for looking that up.  :P  There is a little discussed rating called the GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating).  It is the max amount the truck is designed to move- both truck, gear and trailer.   If the GCWR is 18,000 pounds (for example) and the dead weight of the truck is 7,000 pounds, then the trailer and gear that you carry should not exceed 11,000 pounds- max.  You would not imagine the amount of stuff people put in the units.  Not to mention the fresh water, grey water and black water (if they dont get rid of it) in the tanks at 8.33 lbs per gallon.  It all adds up quick.  I have see bent axles, blown tires, jack knife's, back windows busted out (short bed truck with a fw designed for long beds), and other stuff that would make you laugh and cry.  Ya know, I should have wrote some of that down for a book... ;D


  You state Fuel economy is important but so is Safety and comfort.  I would dare say that if they were ranked then safety would be the first concern.   ;) Sorry, gspren this is a bit off the thread but maybe some of it will help.

[gspren]

My fuel economy question is in regards to the engine tuning difference between the PU and the Chassis Cab, most people don't know that there is a difference but it is quite a lot. If the higher HP of the PU gets better economy I could get order a PU without a bed and have a flat bed built but the Chassis cab starts with a sturdier frame and bigger fuel tank. I am in no hurry to do this but I am trying to understand which makes the better all around truck. Thanks for the info, I appreciate it.

[snowstorm]

go big or go home as they say. i have a f350 that i plowed roads with 9' plow 9' wing 2 yd sander it worked pretty good. so thinking i needed something else bought a f550 same plows with a 5yd sander. its nite an day difference. put this truck on the scales bet it would be close to 25000 lbs. it hauls handles well great breaks plenty of power its a 6.0 6 speed. for a big camper a f550 mite be a little overkill . it will be stable and it will stop. frame is bigger breaks drive line. a new 6.7 is 400hp in the pickups in a 550 think its 300 but the touqre is close thats what counts. the lower the rpm it peaks the better. thats what pulls the hills

[snowstorm]

f450  550 uses 19.5 tires real truck tires. when they wear out have them capped an run em another 100,000 miles

[Bibbyman]

There is another class 4 and 5 truck on the block.  It's a new model by International called Terrastar.

http://www.internationaltrucks.com/Trucks/Trucks/Series/TerraStar/

It's more like a scaled down heavy truck instead of a beefed up PU.

Here is a company that customizes the Terrastar for those with BIG bucks!

http://www.agilevehicles.com/InternationalTruck_TerraStar-ITE_TerraStar_Truck-TerraStar_Hauler.html

[snowstorm]

There is another class 4 and 5 truck on the block.  It's a new model by International called Terrastar.

http://www.internationaltrucks.com/Trucks/Trucks/Series/TerraStar/

It's more like a scaled down heavy truck instead of a beefed up PU.

Here is a company that customizes the Terrastar for those with BIG bucks!

http://www.agilevehicles.com/InternationalTruck_TerraStar-ITE_TerraStar_Truck-TerraStar_Hauler.html

looks pretty good no 4x4?? gotta have that

[Bibbyman]

Suppose to be coming in 4x4. It keep getting delayed.

[Ironwood]

For mileage, hauling medium on a say 450 or 550 (my experience) you can "gear up". I had a 2000 F-550 I put 3.91's in it (factory was 4.88's) and WOW what a difference it made. Now I would not do that if you were hauling near max CGVW all the time, but it REALLY dropped the rpm's and no doubt increased the lifespan of the engine during my 100,000 miles I owned it. You can also bump to the 245 19.5 tires instead of the 225 19.5 factory, they are taller and so "gear up" a little.

Also, talked to several local gear shops, and the new Dodge has German axles and gearing them up will cost at least 2x's the domestic unit. My S-135 Dana on my 550 cost $2500 installed AND I put  Detroit Locker in it at the time, that price was for everything installed.

I have NO idea what the best current combo is, brand or engine, as I buy older used units. I will say from experience the Ford line CC has a thicker frame when you switch from a F-350 to a F-450 or 550. The CC frames on all are different than "standard" bed models, and the thickness goes to a 1/4" thicker as I recall. As for the axles, brakes, spring mounts, springs, there is alos a HUGE difference. I have changed ALOT of my F-350 over to F-450 "hardware" as I USE it alot.

Urea and modern "reburn" systems will also kill your mileage.

Ironwood

[snowstorm]

urea will increase fuel mileage not decrease.

[gspren]

There is another class 4 and 5 truck on the block.  It's a new model by International called Terrastar.

http://www.internationaltrucks.com/Trucks/Trucks/Series/TerraStar/

It's more like a scaled down heavy truck instead of a beefed up PU.

Here is a company that customizes the Terrastar for those with BIG bucks!

http://www.agilevehicles.com/InternationalTruck_TerraStar-ITE_TerraStar_Truck-TerraStar_Hauler.html

looks pretty good no 4x4?? gotta have that

I agree it looks good and when I went through the build part I selected crew cab and 4wd so they do have it listed. I'd like to see one in person, I hope they are not jacked up too high, bad for 5th towing.

[Bibbyman]

 

 

The frame height is just a little higher, no more than 2" I'd say, than on our 99 3500 Dodge cab and chassis.

The frame drops down where it goes under the cab to lower it something like 12" lower than the Durastar series.   The Terrastar has only one step up into the cab,  the Durastar has two.

[gspren]

Bibbyman, how does that compare in size to a Freightliner M2 buisiness class? It looks nice but its hard to gage size from a picture.

[Manorwood]

Something else to consider... I've put a two micron ABSOLUTE filter into my Dodge diesel.  Doing research, Bosch (who makes many of the injector systems) recommends no worse than 5 micron fuel filtering.  Factory Dodge (guessing it's true for the others too) is nowhere near this, but is probably going to get the truck past the 100K warranty period.  I added a filter between the factory cannister and the cp3 pump, so very easy install and maintenance.  I use a cat filter.  Be aware many filters offer a multipass rating rather than an absolute rating.  Good fuel/water seperation is an absolute must as well.

[Bibbyman]

Bibbyman, how does that compare in size to a Freightliner M2 buisiness class? It looks nice but its hard to gage size from a picture.

I don't know about Freightliner M2 class trucks, but looking at the Freightliner web site,  I'd say our Terrastar is much lighter.  It's meant to compete with the F450/F550 Fords, 4500/5500 Dodge trucks. 

Our truck was built with a 7,000 front axle and 13,500 rear axle (springs).  Total GVW of 19,500.  I don't know where it loses the other 1000 in the addition.

[snowstorm]

as to how much fuel it mine burn. had a little snow event here today 7" i plow and sand town roads. started at 3am got done at 3pm took 25gal. 04 f550 6.0 6 speed. as hard as i am on it i would say 2gal per hour was pretty good. as for the IH nice looking truck it uses the same motor that ford had in 08 thru 2010 a 6.4

[Bibbyman]

as for the IH nice looking truck it uses the same motor that ford had in 08 thru 2010 a 6.4

While Ford did use the IH engine, but I think in 2010 they developed their own engine.

The MaxxForce 7 engine used in the Terrastar is a new engine by IH - I understand it's not the same as the old PowerStoke.

http://www.truckinginfo.com/trucks-trailers/news-detail.asp?news_id=73650&news_category_id=66

[snowstorm]

i read the link its the same motor ford had. twin turbo 6.4. ford a IH got a divorce. ih is still building the frame for f650 750 that is due to end soon. ford will be builting there own i think in ohio. it was in fleet owner mag

[gspren]

Bibbyman,
      How do you like your Terrastar so far? Can you give a comparison to previous trucks as far as power, comfort, fuel mileage, Etc. Tell me anything you can.
gspren

[Bibbyman]

I don't have a wide range of experience to compare the Terrastar to.  We have and been using a 99 Dodge 3500 V10 gas since it was new.  Had a Chevy 1 ton before that. 

The Terrastar has a lot of power. 300 hp. The Alison transmission is fantastic.  We just found out that it has and overdrive/road mode that should improve mileage.  I don't know the mileage because Mary won't give me the numbers.  She records the numbers when she fills up but for some reason she has never made them available to me.

We have about 2,500 miles on it already.  Seems to be running stronger – what little I've driven it.

While most of it says "truck" there are a couple of flimsy things on it I find most disturbing.  There is a plastic trim panel below the door that you could rip off with your bare hands.  In fact,  I complained to the salesman about it and he agreed.  Said they sometimes blow off going down the road.  The grill is flimsy plastic too.  I doubt if it would stand more than a blow of a big bug or a small bird. 

The salesman said the biggest thing holding up sales on the Terrastar is that they have not made 4wd available yet.  It's cataloged, but they're not ready to build them. 

You can order it with class 4 or class 5 springs – same weight range as F450 and F550 and Dodge 4500 and 5500.  We got the class 5 springs – 19,500 gvw.  We're overloading it and there seems to be little difference in power – loaded or empty.  It rides smoother with loaded.  If you get one, get the air ride seat.



 

Here is 1400 bf of white oak - 14-15' long.



 

Here is the flimsy panel I was talking about.  The arrow is pointing to the engine block heater outlet and jump connection point.  It was balow the step and hard to get to.  I took the bracket off and remodeled it and bolted it on so it was above the step.



 

Here is the flimsy bracket that broke when I took the flimsy plastic panel off.  I think it's a good place for some polished aluminum diamond plate.

[snowstorm]

nice looking truck. havent seen any around here yet could be cause the 4x4 isnt out yet. theres a place just up the road from here that build snow plows and wings. he rigged up 5 new f550 fords. all said an done there are about $85000