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Bright green wood?

Started by gspren, January 11, 2012, 06:39:07 PM

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gspren

  I am cutting and splitting fire wood off of a pile of logs left from a pipe line crossing my land last summer so I am not the one that cut these trees down. The wood in question is bright green when first cut but starts to dull the next day. The ends of the logs that were cut last June are now deep red to purple and the bark reminds me of some of the maples, not smooth but not course like locust. The majority of the logs from the pipe line ROW on my farm are cherry and locust with a few maples and I am familiar with them. This green, turning purple wood is also very wet compared to the other logs off the same stack. I hope its worth burning next year. 
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SwampDonkey

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thecfarm

I feel anything can be burned IF it is cut and split and dried. Just might need more of it. But that is another whole topic.
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WDH

If the bark is smoother rather than rougher, it is probably cucumber tree, Magnolia acuminata.  It has the green heartwood, just like yellow poplar.  It is one of these two, for sure.  The leaves are very different.  Cucumber tree's leaf is a simple, entire leaf while yellow poplar has a truncated leaf which looks someone took some scissors and cut the top 1/3 of the leaf off.

Cucumber tree bark is ridged, just not as deeply or as rough as yellow poplar.  Young yellow poplar can have smooth bark that seems striped with lines that eventually become the furrows between the ridges in the bark.  What size was the tree?

There is worse firewood, but once dry, it will be light and burn up quickly with fewer coals than most hardwood.
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lynches lumber

Where do ya get one of these cucumber trees? Im getting tired of having to bend over to pick my cucumbers. ;D

gspren

I don't know if yellow poplar is the same as what we call tulip poplar which is pale green when cut and the cut ends turn grey after a few months but this wood looks nothing like the poplar I normally see. The biggest section of this wood was about 16" Dia. These trees were not from normal woodland but from a section of pasture that was too steep to mow so it tended to mostly locust and cherry. The ends turning dark red instead of grey is what puzzled me. There is even a chance that the pipeline crew brought a few extra logs here from somewhere else just to get rid of them, I told them where to pile anything big enough to cut for burning and the pile of logs I got was bigger than I expected from my land.
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SwampDonkey

Yeah, I didn't know how common cucumber tree would be up in PA, it seems to be the edge of the range, so I suspect sparse. But could be. I think those two are quite variable in color according to the ID books.

Of course we have no photos. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

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WDH

You see cucumber tree in the mountains and upper Piedmont.  It likes a little elevation. 

Lynches Lumber,

I have heard that money grows on trees, like cucumbers, but I have never seen one of those in the wild  :).
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Buck

Quote from: lynches lumber on January 12, 2012, 07:50:04 AM
Where do ya get one of these cucumber trees? Im getting tired of having to bend over to pick my cucumbers. ;D

+1 on the picking. Might be like taking the ole 22 out and getting mistle toe. Norm might even get into this 8)
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WDH

He shoots silos, so why not trees  :D.
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lynches lumber

WDH if I did ever see one of them money trees in the wild there sure wouldnt be any felling. Can you say transplant?

zopi

Be my luck that sucker would freeze.
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gspren

 When I stacked the wood this morning I kept a small piece with bark so that when I get around to figuring out how to get pictures on my computer and then on here I will post again. WDH, I see you are from Perry,GA. We spent a few days there the end of Sept visiting some relatives, nice country.
Gary
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OneWithWood

Does the wood have a distinctive odor?
One With Wood
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JohnW

Sounds like you're ruling out the poplar, and you're probably right to do so.  Yes, yellow poplar = tulip poplar.  It's the only green wood I've seen, but I wouldn't call it bright green.  It's not green on the ends.  When you split it, you're likely to see green in the center, on the side of the piece of wood.  A dull green.  Otherwise, the wood is quite white.  The bark is slightly rough.  Poplar trees usually grow large.  If you have black locust and cherry, I'd expect the poplar to be 20" trees and larger.

gspren

Today I went past that stack of wood that has now been split for a bit over 2 weeks and it is now a light brown color, the bright green doesn't last long. These are fence row trees, I don't see them in my woods. I am going to send a piece with a friend to show his son that is a forester for the state. I don't NEED to know, I just WANT to know since I never cut any before. If I get a positive ID I will post it. Thanks everyone!
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OneWithWood

Green to brown sure sounds like tulip poplar.  The only other wood that I have seen that goes from green to brown is walnut.
One With Wood
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tyb525

Black locust can go green to brown also
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WDH

So will cucumber magnolia. 
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metalspinner

I've cut into poplar that must have been mold or fungus infected becasue it had plenty of red in it.  But it also had lots of black and stunk to high heaven.  For fun, I called it Tennessee Ebony. It was a log I marked to cut stickers from, but after seeing it opened up, we cut thick bowl turning stock. :)
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WDH

I just had a guy call me looking for black-heart poplar.  He was a bowl carver, not a bowl turner. 
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SwampDonkey

We have lots of black heart maple in the woods up here. I wonder if that would do. :D
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Okrafarmer

Sometimes we find 4-colored tulip-tree (yellow poplar) wood. It can have yellow, green, red, and purple all in the same piece of wood. That we refer to as Rainbow Poplar, and I have sold pieces of firewood of that stuff for $10 each to turners.
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gspren

  I sent a piece by way of a friend to a forester who says definatly Osage Orange, I have about 3/4 of a cord cut and stacked so next winter I'll see how it burns.
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Okrafarmer

Well, be sure not to put too much of it in your stove at once. Unless you want to melt the stove.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

gspren

Quote from: Okrafarmer on April 14, 2012, 08:29:03 PM
Well, be sure not to put too much of it in your stove at once. Unless you want to melt the stove.

Is that a problem in an OWB that shuts down the air when it reaches the set temp? I thought maybe it would burn like black locust.
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Al_Smith

Osage gets hard as a rock when it dries  .Heavy wood .Mulberry a second cousin is just about the same .Tulip poplar is a soft wood that gets very light when it's dry .

Osage won't get any hotter than oak or hickory unless you run the draft wide open  on the stove .All three are heavy dense woods which just produce more BTU's over a longer period of burning .Tulip poplar is a very poor choice for firewood but like all wood it will produce heat you just have to burn more of it .

WDH

Actually, I bet that what you have is black locust.  The heartwood has a greenish tint.  Osage orange heartwood is bright, and I mean bright, sulfur yellow.  Otherwise, the wood grain, density, and structure is almost exactly the same. 

The green color that you originally indicated does not point at all to osage orange.  If it is black locust, there will be at most only several rings of sapwood on the outside (three or less), and all the rest will be the greenish-brown heartwood.
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Okrafarmer

That's what I was thinking, WDH, but was leaving it up to the experts (this time!). Osage should look yellowish to orangish but not green or dull brown, if I understand correctly.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

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Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Al_Smith

Osage will indeed be an orangish color when it's first green cut that will turn brown after it dries .

SwampDonkey

Tyb also mentioned it as a possible at the beginning. We have black locust up here as yard trees. Never seen it sawed though. Often times these and other locust trees get brought here when family members move to the states and bring ma and pa something from the south. Bristly locust was a big fad many years ago in this area.
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1 Thessalonians 5:21

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gspren

  I have a lot of black locust and it is a pale green when cut and the bark is entirely different than what this was. The person that made the ID is a forester that graduated from Penn State with some type of a degree in Forestry so I figured he should know. Bottom line is next winter it will be burnt.
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Okrafarmer

We have black locust growing naturally in the mountains near here, and I noticed that the bark on these looks a bit different than the big yard trees up in Maine. I tried to sawmill one log, and quickly gave up on the species after grinding through it.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

SwampDonkey

The black locust actually look like they winter well up here. But bristly locust in the area get knocked back by the cold winter. They always look half dead. The one saving grace for them is the flowers or they would have been eradicated long ago. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Al_Smith

Black locust is another hardwood like osage that is very rot resistant .

Now honey locust is a different breed of cat so to peak .Gets thorns that look like small elk antlers .Can get quite plump also .A couple years ago one of the trimmers dropped off chunks nearly 4 feet in diameter .It doesn't have a color variant and once split for firewood looks about like split oak only lighter in color .

Dodgy Loner

Quote from: gspren on April 15, 2012, 04:48:39 PM
  I have a lot of black locust and it is a pale green when cut and the bark is entirely different than what this was. The person that made the ID is a forester that graduated from Penn State with some type of a degree in Forestry so I figured he should know. Bottom line is next winter it will be burnt.

I am very curious about this. Your description of the wood sounds nothing at all like osage-orange. Is there any way you would be willing to saw off a small cookie from one of the logs and send it to me? I will pay for your shipping. Send me a PM if you want and I'll give you my address.
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WDH

It sure does not sound like osage orange.  The wood of black locust and osage orange looks almost exactly alike except for the color of the heartwood.
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Dodgy Loner

Hopefully I will get to see it in person soon to settle this once and for all :)
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Okrafarmer

Quote from: WDH on April 16, 2012, 09:25:30 PM
It sure does not sound like osage orange.  The wood of black locust and osage orange looks almost exactly alike except for the color of the heartwood.
Quote from: Dodgy Loner on April 17, 2012, 01:52:11 AM
Hopefully I will get to see it in person soon to settle this once and for all :)

:P :P :P :P :P :P

Looking forward to the result!  ;D

According to Peterson's Guide, we are at the very edge of honey locust range, but I have found several about, especially in Pickens County. We also are near the edge of black locust natural range, and have it in the mountains. People also sometimes plant it in their yards. Osage I have never found here yet, except maybe once or twice a long time ago.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

WDH

There is not much osage here either.  What is here is in the fence rows and re-defines gnarly.
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SwampDonkey

Another trait of osage is to soak a wood block in water and the color will bleed out into the water.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

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doctorb

Just wanted to know if there was any new info on the wood in question.  I have split plenty of black locust and osage orange, and, at least in their appearance in my neck of the woods, they are easily distinguished.  Locust is really very green when split and the osage is strikingly orange/brown.  The green of the locust fades over time.  I think the osage retains an orange hue forever.  You said this tree was from a hedgerow.  A lot of osage orange was planted that way for fenceposts.

Once again, I am awed and jealous of the knowledge of trees and forestry residing here.  And, once again, I have a home remedy to see if this wood is osage orange.  When it's dry, burn some.  If it sparks and pops worse than any other wood you've burned in your life, it's osage orange.  Great heat potential, but terrible for open fires or fireplaces due to the sparking.  Use in an OWB or a wood stove.
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Jeff

I changed the topic title on this from solved, as it certainly is NOT Osage orange if it was bright green to start.
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gspren

  I started this and thought I knew when a forester said Osage. I shipped a chunk to Dodgy Loner so I hope he knows and settles it.
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Okrafarmer

Quote from: gspren on April 26, 2012, 01:40:38 PM
  I started this and thought I knew when a forester said Osage. I shipped a chunk to Dodgy Loner so I hope he knows and settles it.

No harm done, I'm sure.  :)
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

WDH

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dodgy Loner

Well I received the wood sample a couple days ago but didn't have the time to take a close look until this afternoon. I started out with the intention of proving that the sample was black locust, as that was my initial impression after opening the package. However, a comparison to known samples of black locust indicated otherwise. The sample had bark on it, and the bark did not look at all like osage-orange. Soaking the shavings in warm water did not reveal any of the "high-lighter yellow" extractives that are typical of osage-orange, so I was able to positively rule that out as well.

I would like to post pictures of the wood with known samples for comparison before revealing the identity, but I will have to wait until I get some problems with JUpload resolved first. The tension builds....

;D
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Jeff

Dodgy, dont use the jupload, use the regular flash upload instead. It works better.
Just call me the midget doctor.
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Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
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WDH

Excuses, excuses  :)     ;D.
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SwampDonkey

If it's not one thing it's another.  ::)  :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

gspren

  Well if it's valuable I hope it's valuable in pieces 20" long and split! :D
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OneWithWood

Dodgy, will you include close ups of the endgrain pore structure?

I have my Hoadley's out waiting  ::)
One With Wood
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Dodgy Loner

Okay, OWW. Game on ;D

I will post some pics and let the guessing games begin!

Here's a pic of the bark from gspren's Mystery Wood:


Here is a face-grain lineup; Mystery Wood is on the far left, along with some other likely candidates for comparison.


And finally, the end-grain: Mystery Wood on top. The rest are in the same order as the face-grain pic. Can you ID them all?
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

WDH

I am going with:

#1).  Mulberry

#2).  Mulberry

#3).  Black Locust

#4).  Osage orange
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Okrafarmer

Quote from: WDH on April 28, 2012, 10:56:49 PM
I am going with:

#1).  Mulberry

#2).  Mulberry

#3).  Black Locust

#4).  Osage orange

I pretty much agree with WDH except wondering about the mulberry. He is probably right-- I am learning not to bet against him....
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Dodgy Loner

It is a good idea not to bet against WDH when it comes to tree and wood ID. He nailed it :)

I was surprised to find out that the wood was mulberry, because I have cut quite a bit of it, and I've never seen any that was bright green upon first cutting, but all the diagnostic characteristics are there. The wood is now bright yellow, the grain is strongly ring-porous, the pores are occluded with tyloses, and the sapwood band is only 3 rings wide. This description can fit 3 woods that I am aware of: mulberry, black locust, and osage-orange.

To narrow it down to one, I planed the endgrain smooth to compare it to samples of known identity. The true identity of the Mystery Wood is plainly evident upon examination of the endgrain. Black locust and osage-orange have a single solid line of large pores at the beginning of each annual ring, with gradually a little more space between the pores the farther you move into the latewood. Mulberry, on the other hand, has a wider band of pores all nestled together in the earlywood, with the pores abruptly becoming smaller and more widely spaced in the latewood.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

SwampDonkey

Nice job on the pictures Dodgy. Helps a lot to see them end grain pictures.  ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

gspren

 Originally when I looked at the log before I cut it I thought mulberry but the bright green color threw me off so I googled mulberry and decided against it and posted the question here. The adjacent pasture was recently plowed and had soil tests done which showed high magnesium, could this or some other soil condition cause the green? I really need to take time to learn how to post pictures.
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doctorb

Cool.  thanks.  I learned a lot!
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

OneWithWood

Late to the game, as usual.

I concur with the analysis above.  Largely because you all know a whole lot more about it than I do  :D
One With Wood
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Dodgy Loner

Thanks to gspren for sending me the wood sample. I had fun with this, and it was nice to get a firm resolution.

To answer your question about what could have caused the unusual coloration, I can honestly say that I don't know.I just identified a sample of mulberry for hackberry jake that had atypical coloration, so I do know that mulberry can have a wide range of color. More variation than I realized was possible beforehand!
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

WDH

Those tyloses always clog things up  :D.

Dodgy,

Nice tip about the distribution of the earlywood (Before-Dawn-Wood (Thanks David!))) pores.

Mulberry is a chameleon like black oak  :D.
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Okrafarmer

 :o  Maybe there's a mulberry revolution going on out there-- things could get real sticky, folks! Be sure to have your bunkers in order, your larders well stocked, and plenty of ammo on hand! Those nefarious mulberries are morphing into who-knows-what!
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Dodgy Loner

Quote from: WDH on April 29, 2012, 11:34:19 AM
Mulberry is a chameleon like black oak  :D.

Quote from: Okrafarmer on April 29, 2012, 04:01:35 PM
Those nefarious mulberries are morphing into who-knows-what!

Yes, I definitely wasn't expecting to identify two mulberry samples in one week! Mulberries are coming out of the woodwork! (;D) And the seem to have berry bad intentions! (::))
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

WDH

I will take it out on my favorite berry tree tomorrow  :).
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Roxie

Very scientific, but the easiest way to identify Mulberry, is to mow under it wearing any light colored clothing.  If the brilliant orange of Osage doesn't warn you away, walk (or drive) under a grove when the seed pods are dropping.  Can you say concussion? 

Like reaching the end of a very good book, the build up of suspense has left me a bit sad that the mystery has been solved, but it has been fascinating. 
Say when

WDH

Roxie,

I will have to give those two methods a try  :D.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

I don't know if she's picking osage or coconuts.  ;D ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

tyb525

We have several mulberry trees on the edge of a field, when the crop is heavy the ground becomes saturated with fermented fruit. If you mow or walk under them they literally squish, smell like a brewery, and get your shoes/tires all wet with almost-alcohol.
LT10G10, Stihl 038 Magnum, many woodworking tools. Currently a farm service applicator, trying to find time to saw!

JohnW

Yes, I've seen and smelled the fermented mulberries before.  Some people have told me that it will get the critters eating the mulberries drunk.  I haven't seen that though.

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