sapwood or knots?

[hackberry jake]

I was wondering when you guys saw for grade, if you take the side with a lot of sapwood first or the side with a knot or two first? What do you prefer to see in a set of cabinets, flooring, fine furniture, etc? I am mainly concerned with woods that have a substantial color difference between sapwood and heartwood like cherry and walnut.

[Larry]

When you say grade that implies the clearest board possible irregardless of sap.  Almost all walnut is steamed and I think some cherry.

Walnut, I waste the sapwood and go for clear.  Plenty of knots show up on there own a few cuts down.  Cherry, its all good.

The last house I built we put in a #1 oak floor and were proud of it.  After 18 years we were tired of it because it was so boring.  The house I am building now has a #2 oak floor which admits sap, mineral stain, small knots, and even a bit of spalt.  Really colorful...I suppose we will get tired of it too after a few years.

Lumber is sawn for the cabinets in the new house.  Its all clear red oak, sapwood free.  Also sawed some blackjack oak.  It has a little of everything.  I need to dream up something rustic to utilize that stuff.

[WDH]

I am with Larry.  Cut for clear faces.  As to the contrast between the sapwood and heartwood in cherry and walnut, that is a feature that makes them special to me.  I love the contrast.  Who wants boring furniture store, same same brown?

If some want to cut out the sapwood, this is a free country.  Go for it  .

[hackberry jake]

The main reason I asked is because I don't mind sapwood in my woodwork. It adds character. I hate how walnut is steamed in commercial applications, it also decreases the vibrance of the grain and figure in my oppinion. I have never built anything with visible knots, I have however been wanting to build something that is loaded with knots for the rustic value. I am going to have to try that if I find a good knotty walnut or cherry. Cherry is self de-limbing so I will have to use center heart wood or young trees.

[T Welsh]

As Larry and WDH said, sawing for grade is just that! 80 to 90% clear face. when I saw for myself,I like character and go for it while sawing. Tim

[Kansas]

Depends on what your preferences are. Depends on the species.

Personally, I think walnut with some sapwood is beautiful. Nearly all of our customers don't want it. They want unsteamed walnut because the dark wood is darker. But they don't want the white. So when I built my house, with an eye towards using it to sell different lumber, I went through the walnut pile and got all the white/dark walnut and had it put down for the floor in the great room. I like it, only wish there was more white wood. Turns out there wasn't as much as I thought there would be.

I went with select and better hickory for the kitchen/dining area. The reason was, I wanted the light/dark contrast and knew I needed to get the better outside of the log area to get that. And I did. They ran a little short of that and finished with some hickory we had at the mill, of lower quality. Some people who see the floor love the select area more. Personally, I like the rougher stuff.

The most boring that I used was the quartersawn bur oak wall in the great room. Virtually no knots. Its boring to me anyway. Some people who see it think its the best one.

I went through the piles of red and white oak at work and used what I knew wouldn't sell well for the loft areas of the house. Probably averaging 1 and 2 common. I like the look. Most people do.

I used the very best cherry with no sap for the cabinets. Couldn't have turned out better. Cherry has enough character that knots aren't needed, at least to me.

When people come into this house, they are invariably drawn to the board that is spalted, the one that has a big knot in it. There are a few 2x12's oak that hold up the loft that the log had metal in. They love the dark iron streaks. Go figure. I very nearly discarded those, plus I expected the carpenter to cut around the knots on the wood covering the walls and ceilings. He is an older guy that has built all his life. He put every knot out in the most prominent of places. I understand why now.

[Cedarman]

If ERC was clear I don't think it would have the appeal that all of the knots give it.  If am with all of you that like the white walnut sapwood to give that visual whack when the two go together. 
Some people like the white vinel fence, but I would rather have a wooden one with the character.

[SwampDonkey]

I am not all that struck on perfect either. ;D I refuse to high grade my woods so some mill can take all the best. ;)

[bandmiller2]

So much you buy today is wood grain on plastic glued to sawdust board all looks the same and too perfect.Real wood has faults ,knots,streaks and charicter they are the proof its real. Frank C.

[ladylake]

I've seen a lot of laminate bar top, tables etc that copied the knottiest junk wood  out there.  Sure wish I could sell some.     Steve

[WDH]

Knots, mineral streaks, etc. immediately draw the eye, just like a tree bent over in the woods in a C-shape.  You can look across the landscape and immediately see that bent over tree from a quarter of a mile. 

[MotorSeven]

Clear wood has always bored me, it's one of the reasons I bought a sawmill. Give me knots, spalting, contrasting grain, etc and I am happy.

One of the cedar logs for my walls had a very large inclusion(8" long x 3" deep). I had some help that day and one of the guys said "I guess your going to have to cut that part off the log". I set it off to the side and waited until it we were at eye level, then studied it a little. Flipped the right way it looks like a Orca, and everybody that walks in comments on how "cool" it is.

[SwampDonkey]

A lot of that has to do with "we want it cheap". I know a cabinet and cupboard shop that had to move in that direction or close the shop. The mass market is "cheap".

[CalebL]

The main reason I asked is because I don't mind sapwood in my woodwork. It adds character. I hate how walnut is steamed in commercial applications, it also decreases the vibrance of the grain and figure in my oppinion. I have never built anything with visible knots, I have however been wanting to build something that is loaded with knots for the rustic value. I am going to have to try that if I find a good knotty walnut or cherry. Cherry is self de-limbing so I will have to use center heart wood or young trees.

I haven't cut a cherry log yet that looked clear but had several knots under the bark.  Maybe I am just not that good at reading the bark yet but cherry is the only logs I have had trouble with. 

[Cedarman]

I love it when someone visits the mill and wants something with character whether it be crooked nasty logs or wild looking lumber.
Many years ago the Bronx Zoo in NY sent an e-mail titled ugly cedar.  They wanted a full truck load of crooked, gnarly, branched , weird cedar for a walkway.  It was fun getting all that stuff that I had stuck here and there because it couldn't be run through the mill and too good to throw away. My motto is, I can always make firewood out of it if I need to.
A local guy wants crooked stuff to make bed posts.
Think Jeff's bed. It is one nice piece of furniture.  I think he has some neat stuff near his pool too.

[Kansas]

From a marketing aspect, there is no such thing as cheap lumber. There is wood with character,  wood with grain and figure, and the best of all is rustic wood. If it is cheap wood, you would have to lower your price. With the other ones, you can raise it. The more rustic you can find, the more you can raise your price.

[Dodgy Loner]

Let me preface my response by saying that I saw most of my lumber with the intention of building furniture - rather than say, flooring, paneling, construction, siding, etc. So for me, knots are not character, they are a defect. Knotty boards tend to cup and bow and twist and split, which leads to more cull for the same amount of work expended on an equal amount of lumber. They weaken the wood and reduce the usefulness of a given piece of wood by restricting its end use. I cannot cut a 2" rail or stile or a piece of molding out that contains a knot, because the narrow width of the board would mean that the integrity of the piece would be compromised. Knotty boards can be used for wide panels (with great effect, I might add), but then you run into another problem: they cause tearout when planing. This leads to lots of extra sanding or hand-planing or scraping from different directions to remove the tearout. Knots are bad news, and I don't like them!

Sapwood, on the other hand, can be used to produce great visual effects in furniture-making, with almost none of the downsides. The exception to this is that sappy boards (especially from cherry) will cup and bow more so than all-heartwood boards. So given the choice between the two, I will always choose clear, sappy lumber over knotty heartwood. But as the resposes above have demonstrated, there is really no "right" answer. It depends on your wants and needs.

[SwampDonkey]

Knots are not a problem so much if they are only on the surface of one face. I flip the board to the inside out of view and I just saved a usable board. Cherry and butternut and maybe others have pin knots that show up, I have used those boards just as if they were knot free. When dried good, they never make a fuss.  But as far as through and through knots on a fine piece of work I am like you Dodgy, they have no place in my handy work. Put them on the barn siding or walls. That being said, the white cedar on the walls here is full of knots, almost impossible to get a knot free white cedar as those limbs hang on a wild tree for ever. ;)

[WDH]

The most pronounced cupping and bowing that I get in lumber is when one side of a walnut or cherry board has sapwood and the other side has heartwood.  They don't always cup, but they do always bow. 

Knots in furniture have to be well placed.

[5quarter]

   When I saw a log for cabinet grade, say 24" dbh x 8', (walnut or cherry) I cut it in a very particular way. I will find the worst face and take an 8" slab and set it aside. rotate 90° and skim a slab to obtain a flat surface. Rotate 90° and take another 8" slab and set aside. rotate 90° and saw down to the bunks. Then I stand up the two side slabs and saw them 90° to the opening cut. The result is a stack of mostly flatsawn, ring centered boards that can be numbered and bookmatched for wide panel stock and anothe pile of narrow, rift and quartered boards that are ideal for face frames.

   Personally, I'm with others in that I prefer wood that is not steamed and will always opt for the most interesting boards, which often involve defects. Having said that, cabinet shops need the highest grade available. select and better  grades have less movement in service, generate less waste and have a predictable appearence; all good things when  your clients, who are paying alot of $$, are more interested in color than character. I have had a couple clients like this, but more often than not, I have built for people looking for something unique.

   Jake...if your cutting for sale to cabinet shops, find the best logs and saw for grade. If your market is more artsy, saw for character. Keep in mind though that cabinet shops are a hard sell, because they require reliability. when they put in and order to you, they have likely aready signed a contract with the client and have taken a deposit. if you can't deliver what they need when they need it, even once, they're gone. I have 2 cabinet shops that have occasionally bought stock from me. I keep both of them informed of what I have available and always remind them to call me before they sign anything. So far, no problems.

   As an aside, I think the highest profit potential for the small shops like myself lies not in selling lumber, but in producing finished products from your own stock.

...I'm sorry, what was the question again?

;D ;)