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Beware of zoning laws!

Started by Bigdogpc, February 06, 2004, 01:56:45 AM

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Bigdogpc

As of yesterday, Feb 5th, we were issued a "cease operations" order from the Marion county zoning department.  We have until March 1st to remove all evidence of a sawmilling operation.  This action was prompted by a busy body neighbor (anonymous obviously) who called and complained.  The A2 agriculture zoning and the county business license (yes, we have a license) did not hold water with the code enforcement gent (I use this term LOOSELY).  He maintains that a sawmill has to be on M2 zoned property (heavy equipment).  This flys in the face of common sense when the whole bloody mill doesn't weigh 1500lbs.

In all fairness, we have gotten logs from a tree trimmer who has a large truck.  We do have a bobcat on the property off and on (belongs to a friend who helps out).  We do have about 30 logs on the ground and it does look like a sawmill.

Florida has some odd laws and 90% of the time you can't fight them.  We have a couple of calls in that might help us but is doubtful since zoning enforcement pretty much has the last word.

I'm not crying in my beer....I did that last night! :D I just thought I would post this and maybe save somebody else some serious headaches.  Ya'll have a good one!  I got a mill to move.

DanG

Well, RATS, Bigdog! >:(   Busybodies rank right up there with vandals and thieves on my list.  Do you know where you will set up, now?  I hope it works out for you in the long run. Since the place is zoned for ag, maybe you should put in a big, stinky pig farm. ;D

I have a busybody neighbor, too. She has caused trouble for everybody in the area, except me.  I knew of her before she moved in, so when they bought the place, I put the word out in the local grapevine. I let it be "known" that, if they messed with me I would make sure they lost their SSI Disability checks, their Medicaid, and their Food Stamps. I guess they believed it, or ain't takin' the chance. It's been 6 years and I ain't heard a peep out of'em. :)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Neil_B

Bigdog,
I'm currently going through all that stuff now. Rezoning. Luckily no one complained, I'm just trying to do things right and they(municipality) are giving me a bit of a run around but not too bad. In my area I believe a sawmill is allowed on an agricultural use. It is classed as a farm accessory. I'll check the by laws again and see what they say.

Right now though, I'm getting a site specific zoning to allow a sawmill on a Rural zoning. It is allowed normally but it has to be in accessory to a house on the lot. There is no house. Things are looking good with that.
I tried to get a "temporary" zoning to allow it set up on my house lot, 2.75 acres, but they would not go for it. This is where my problem lies because they expect me to have the money this spring to level the rural lot, put buildings up and install hydro and whatever else needs to be done to get all my stuff set up there. I'm trying to explain to them that I need my garage and workshop on the house, as well as the office in the basement, in order to run the business until I can do this on the rural lot.
I have another meeting Feb 25 to get them to reconsider so will see how that goes.
Timberwolf / TimberPro sawmill, Woodmizer edger, both with Kubota diesels. '92 Massey Ferguson 50H backhoe, '92 Ford F450 with 14' dump/ flatbed and of course an '88 GMC 3500 pickup.

woodmills1

Don't get me started. :o  Lets just say I spent thousands to get back something less than I was told I had approval for in the first place.  Due to ex-neighbor/political enemy busy body.  But in the end it was he who moved and me who operates.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Neil_B

Bigdog,
I just checked my by law book and Agricultural is not allowing a sawmill, only a rural zoning with a house.
It may be worthwhile for you to buy a copy of your bylaws, sometimes there are things in there that they don't look at deeply enough before they accuse you. You may find a way out of it.

Another thing is if you are doing this for your own personal use, such as making lumber for  barns and fences on your property, it is usually allowed. Only problem is actually running a business on it. But you could just tell them everything is for you. Just dont get caught selling stuff off the property  ;)  ;D
Timberwolf / TimberPro sawmill, Woodmizer edger, both with Kubota diesels. '92 Massey Ferguson 50H backhoe, '92 Ford F450 with 14' dump/ flatbed and of course an '88 GMC 3500 pickup.

Corley5

Cheboygan county has much the same rules.  A sawmill can be set up on an ag zoned piece of ground but it can only saw material cut on the farm for farm use or material brought in to be cut and used on the farm.  No lumber can be sold.  I can however under Michigan's Right to Farm Act run up 750 hogs with no special permits ::)  I'm moving my mill this summer to this farm and am not concerned about it.  I don't need any permits to build anything farm related and once it's setup it's done.  I don't plan on sawing a lot anyway but if the urge should hit me I will.  I already warned one neighbor that if he kept it up he'd have a hog barn in his side yard and haven't had any problems with him since.  There's only one other one that might complain and there are several things that can be done to him including ruining his scenic view of my farm for starters.  There go the property values ;)
Bigdog Where ya at in Marion Co?  Grandma's got place just south of Forest Corners off SR40
  
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Neil_B

It boggles the mind how they can dictate what we can and can't do on our own property. I can understand noise issues but they could just as easy work with us instead of against us.
I had tried the arguement that my mill was only a 1/3rd the horsepower of the other mills in the area but it doesn't matter to counsel if it's 1 hp or 250. Everything is based on the older circular mills as to how they determine the noise, dust and waste issues.

I had asked about setting classifications as to size and production but they didn't seem interested in working with me on that.
Timberwolf / TimberPro sawmill, Woodmizer edger, both with Kubota diesels. '92 Massey Ferguson 50H backhoe, '92 Ford F450 with 14' dump/ flatbed and of course an '88 GMC 3500 pickup.

Tim

The problem, in both countries, is the lack of property rights. Be it our problem here with the Ministry of Environmnet and the fight we have had with them for the last year+ or building inspectors, zoning what have you. The "leadership" has forgotten where the power comes from within a democracy. Futhermore, they have also forgotten what has built both of these countries.

You buy, build, save and pay for your property... defend it. Stop the takings by various government agencies and special interest groups.

BTW... there are no wastes in the lumber manufacturing industry, everything has a use...
Eastern White Cedar Shingles

jwood

 >:(  DanG  Big dog  i hate to here about havein to move..i hate busy bodies with a passion. had the same problem in orlando..every jack leg that moved in had more say so about the use of my 5 acres than i did..so i moved to a skeeter infested river ..let me know if ya need help moving ..i'm only an hour an a half from ya..i could come down for a day..ya'll
keep your chin up there should be some place out towards the forest that you cld. hide your mill..good luck ..

Fla._Deadheader

 I want to reply to this thread so bad. >:(  I been countin to 10 since I read it the first time. >:( We had one of the biggest liars in Fl. get us kicked outta the first ramp site we had permission to use. >:( I get so hot, this is all I can type >:( >:(
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Frickman

I'm like Deadheader, I've been biding my time so I don't spout off too much. Grandpa always said that the problem with troublemakers is they've got too much time on their hands. If they went out and cut logs all day they'd be too tired at night to raise much of a fuss.

One of the big problems we're having around here is city people moving to the country and then bringing the city with them. They want to look at the cows, but not smell them. And heaven forbid they have to slow down their BMW or Lexus to pass your tractor. They manage to buy 1/2 acre somewhere and then think they can tell you what to do with your place. I had one fellow complain to me that living in the country is nice, but there isn't any fancy coffee shops, dry cleaners, theaters, and all sorts of other things he had in the city. I said then why don't you move back to the city and leave us alone.

The reason the newcomers have been pushing zoning is they are uncomfortable allowing people to mind their own business. In the city they were used to taking every major and even some minor decisions before a committee and letting the community decide an individual property owner's fate. I think that they can't handle the independence that comes from living in the country and want to recreate the environment they had left. O well, I'll get down from my soapbox.
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

Tom

I could talk about this for hours.  

Our property was once zoned OR or Open Rural.  Anything was allowed.  It was a catch all for agriculture.  The Florida's 20/10 plan was put in effect and the county changed the zoning to Agricultural.  Cattle and trees are the only thing allowed now and you have to prove to the powers that be that you are a bonafied venture.  .....and prove it .....and prove it.

Sawmills nor other generally assumed to be agricultural ventures are allowed anymore without zoning exceptions and that costs money and bowing down to the councilmen.

I'm through.  Let me know if you need help Bigdogpc.  What we can't move, we can cut up. :)

Fla._Deadheader

 HEY, there's an idee !!!!!  We could have a sawmill convention. Could you picture about 10 different mills pulling into the log yard. That griper wouldn't know WHAT to think ;)

  Count us in 8) 8) 8) 8) :D :D :D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

DanG

 8) 8) My MD has wheels on it. I could make them appreciate how quiet your mill runs. ;D   Get some more logs in there and we can change the "Swamp Shenanigan" into the "Marion County Cut-up."  ;D   We can roast the pig over the sawdust pile. :D
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Frank_Pender

DanGed if guys don't all have a great deal of class.  I sure wish I lived clsoser, I would bring 3 MD mills and help make som sawdust.  

  I had one of them code inforcement fellas show up here one time only for an alleged issues he never even got to looken at.  He had heard ther could be a problem for him if he did, so he brough along 3 or 4 deputies just incase.   His showing, still cost him his job , before I got done with him. 8) 8) 8)
Frank Pender

steveo_1

What i would like to know is what happened to "Love thy Neighbor"? It seems to me that your neighbors these days are your worst enemy.We have had our share of run ins with ours, mostly over old junk farm equipment and cars with no license,not junk cars just out of date plates.Fortunatly we are agriculture zoned so we only had to move the cars, and we brought in more old farm machinery and big round bales of hay to "junk up" the scenery more.We just recently got our sawmill going regularly so i guess we will hear about that soon.        DanG neighbors!!!!
got wood?

Oregon_Sawyer

Possible zoning and neighbor problems are why I moved my mill to a industrial site that has always been a secondary wood products business ( used to be a stake mill )

My 48 acres are zoned forest farm.  At one time it was zoned 20 acre then before I bought it was changed to 40 now it is rezoned to not allow a house on less than 80 acres. (I got grandfathered in).  We have been milling on site off and on for over 5 years but the neighbors knew we were building a house.  I had room to build a shop for an expanded mill business but was concerned the neighbors would not be so appreciative with log truck coming in and out after our house was built.  Oh yeah,  we are on a private gravel road, 5 parcels with us being the last one.

The second and biggest reason was my wife said she didn't want to be able to see anything that had to do with the sawmill as she came and went to the new house. :D ;D

So we are moving out, the mill anyway 8) 8) 8)

Loren

Sawing with a WM since 98. LT 70 42hp Kubota walk behind. 518 Skidder. Ramey Log Loader. Serious part-timer. Western Red Cedar and Doug Fir.  Teamster Truck Driver 4 days a week.

pigman

None of my neighbors complain about my sawmill. I still have my state permit to have over a thousand hogs on the farm  :o. I thing they would rather have a hobbie sawyer than a full tine hog farmer  8)
 Bob the ex pig farmer
Things turn out best for people who make the best of how things turn out.

woodrat

Wow, I bet your neighbors don't complain about ANYTHING... :D
1996 Woodmizer LT40HD
Yanmar 3220D and MF 253
Wallenstein FX 65 logging winch
Husky 61, 272XP, 372XP, 346XP, 353
Stihl 036, 046 with Lewis Winch
78 Chevy C30 dump truck, 80 Ford F350 4x4
35 ton firewood splitter
Eastonmade 22-28 splitter and conveyor
and ...lots of other junk...

DanG

 :D :D  Pigman, you orter milk that situation a bit. ;D  You could whine, just a little, about the sawmill business being slow, and you might hafta go back in the pig business.  You'd have neighbors for miles around beating the bushes for customers and hauling in free logs. ;D 8) 8) 8) :D :D :D
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Bigdogpc

Thanks for the advise guys and the offers of help!  I ain't laid down and died yet.  Worst case I'll tow the mill to my place and park it while I look for some cheap property closer to me.  I've already got a place to stash the mill up there as well as the few logs I've got.  What really toasts my cookies is the fact that it is portable makes no difference.  I've been doing a lot of dry reading online and cannot find a sawmill specifically designated as agricultural equipment.  If I could find that then one of the exemptions allows agricultural related activities on agriculturally zoned land.  Small loophole but it could be enough...

I suspect a chainsaw mill would have gotten the same response from this code guy.  Apparently he has a hard..whatever for sawmills in general.

Anyway, I've still got a little time so I am going to use it to fight as best I can.  Things were beginning to shape up nicely too.  It was beginning to look like a real sawmill...maybe that was the problem.  Have a good one!!!

woodmills1

Here is the new hampshire statuatory definition of farm and farming that I have been able to hang my hat on to survive in my location.  Specifically it defines a farm as including the growing of trees and then states logging and lumbering operations as activities included as operations of the farm.  When put together with some of the other allowed operations my lawyer is confident that I can continue to win any future battles.  The problem gets worse as the town gets more and more restrictive and wants things like burger king style site plans for small operations like mine.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/I/21/21-34-a.htm
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Ron Wenrich

Zoning laws protect and hurt people.  It depends on which end you're on.  

We had one guy who wanted to put in a high density hog farm next to a KOA campground.  The township said no, after a huge public outcry.  He went and put in a poulty house instead.  The township "took" his hog business away, but he was very willing to take the KOA business away.  Which one was for the greater good?

We also had a bunch of lawyers who decided they were going to do high density hog farming.  Their "nutrient management" would involve all farmland within 5 miles of the farm.  Who killed their plans?  Other farmers who didn't like the idea.

They are now planning to ram high density farming through the legislature where local townships can't prevent it, anywhere.  Not a pretty picture.

We also have a galvanizing plant placed right next to our elementary school.  I sure hope there isn't some sort of industrial accident.  It doesn't seem to be a good fit, but the township supervisors made out pretty well.

The biggest problem we have isn't so much the zoning, but the control of development.  I hate seeing developments put in on fertile soil, be it industrial or residential.  Our little town will triple in population thanks to some developers who put up shoddy houses and move on.  The problems in years to come are going to be staggering.  

We also have a local government who has used emminent domain to take a horse farm.  Why?  To put in a golf course.  That one's still in court.

We now have laws that give us the right to farm and the right to practice forestry.  The state is in the process of buying development rights to preserve farmland.  They can't buy it fast enough.  Developers have deeper pockets.  Our state loses 120,000 acres per year to developers, and we have a declining population base.  

Zoning laws are OK if applied with some common sense.  That seems to be in short supply nowadays.  There has to be a balance someplace.

If you get a variance, is that permanent or temporary?  
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Norm

I have never figured out why a small sawmill has to be lumped in with Weyerhauser type operations. Went up to Weilands sawmill and I'd rather have them for a neighbor than the 6,000 hogs I have now but I live in the country and the smell of manure is to be expected occasionally. Loss of farm land is an old scare tactic, they run it out every few years so they can controll what you can do with your property. Farmland in production goes up every year. Loss of land to ag use goes up every year too. I'm clearing 15 acres of scrub black locust that was pasture but left to go feral. The neighbor behind is pithed because I'm taking out the trees. Why, because they can see his place from the road now. It's my property and I'll do what I want with it. No nosey neighbor or self appointed council is going to change that.

Bigdogpc

I've sent an email to Bush...obviously to be read by some of his help but I figured it can't hurt.

The lack of distinction between small sawmills and big ones makes it tough.  The factory claims 500-800bf per day for my mill.  Technically, this is little more than a hobby mill for an avid wood worker.  Seems kinda harsh to lump that in with a big mill.  I don't own a big truck, I drag logs behind a Ford Bronco that has a boom welded to it.  Everything is manual.  On a long day I might get 1000bf.  The noise level is comparable to a large lawn tractor unless I'm running a chainsaw.

As it stands right now I am going to go look at some property south of me that sounds pretty good.  If I can wrangle a deal I'll be moving into Frostproof.  Hopefully my luck will be better there.

OK, I've moaned and groaned enough.  Thanks again to all of ya!!!

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