Adirondack logging

[rockman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Frp0egKBkXA&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLF040645AA8A6E8AF

Thought you might enjoy this short history from where I will always call home.

Kevin

[mad murdock]

thanks for posting.  interesting vid. 

[T Welsh]

rockman, Thanks for posting, I first visited the park as a boy scout on a canoe trip in the early 70,s and my last visit was a couple of years ago on my motorcycle with my best friend just wandering through the park exploring the beauty! Tim

[FFLM]

Thanks for posting, a real nice vid and from the college I went to.  Lots of great times spent in the ADKS.
Hope everyone have a great christmas

[celliott]

Very interesting video, thanks for posting.  FFLM, my school too (current).

[JDeere]

Thanks for posting. I have a good friend who is a logger in that area and I will forward the video to him.

Merry Christmas

[rockman]

MY in-laws made a cd of thier old photo's for us for Christmas, some of them are of my father-in-law with his new Pettibone skidder in the late 50's and some of the sawmill they moved into the woods where they were cutting. If I wasn't such an Idiot I'd post the pic's in this post but until I learn you'll have to view them in my gallery.
Merry Christmas,
Kevin

[Ken]

Thanks for posting.  Great video.  My grandfather who is now 89 spent many years working in the winter bush camps in the Nashwaak watershed.  He has some great stories to tell.  I can only imagine the bravery of the river drivers. 

[Beefie]

Thanks for posting Rockman, Very interesting video. Going out East is in my bucket list for things to do in the next 5 years. Looking forward to more pics.

Beefie

[John Mc]

I used to live in the Syracuse area, and spent a LOT of time backpacking through the area in all seasons of the year (-20°F in the high peaks was "interesting'. Sleeping wasn't so bad, since we had good tents and sleeping bags rated for the temperature. Cooking dinner was not much fun.)  A really beautiful part of the country.   One of the areas we parked the vehicles was labeled as "sled harbor" on our trail map... way off the end of a barely passable dirt road. I'm told the area was where they pulled the log sleds out to.

[rockman]

Let's see if I have this photo thing figured out.

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

 

[rockman]

Hot DanG, I think I got it..

[rockman]

 

  

 

[KBforester]

I worked as a forester in the ADK's for two years and miss the beautiful landscape.

But I'll tell you, there's nothing in forestry that bothers me more than thousands of acres of "Forever wild" scotch pine plantations. They may not be officially invasive, but they should be.

[John Mc]

Yeah, those Scots Pine were kind of a bust, weren't they? Our neighbors had a small planting of them on their property when they bought the land. The farmer who owned it was going to sell them as Christmas trees. He never sold a single one. In fact, never harvested any of them for anything. The neighbors took them all down and turned it into pasture for their horses.

[rockman]

 It's my  opinion that the "Forever wild" concept needs to be re-evaluated. I sure do have fond memories of logging the Adirondacks in the 70's-80's, didn't make much money but had some great times.

Kevin

[tapper2]

I currently live in Queensbury N.Y. Just on the edge of the Adirondacks, but I'm from the Gore mountain area and still own a woodlot in Wevertown. It's really an awesome area. It's the southern zone. Every weekend I try to just go up and look around, still quite a bit of logging. There are some areas up there owned by the state that are still old growth. Some areas near Speculator still have trees 5&6 foot across. We usually stop to check them out when snowmobiling. Next time we're up there, we'll grab some pics. Really awesome.
My in-laws harvested some oak from their lot this year and some were 30" & really straight.
Forever wild is quite an annoyance for us here. Many camping sites are no longer accessible because the state's giving up on trail maintenance and when asked if we could fix the trails, they claim "FOREVER WILD" means no.

[celliott]

I was told that the scotch pine that was originally imported and planted was from poor genetic stock, before genetics was really understood I guess. That's why all the scotch pine have the twisted tops and poor form. In Europe it does have good form.

As for the forever wild label, I agree it could be re-evaluated, but likely nothing will come of it.  There is a bill being pushed in the NY senate to allow harvesting on one section of land that will be acquired by the ADK park agency.  The land in question is former Finch Pruyn timberlands, a forest that's been managed for years.  The Nature conservancy bought the land from Finch Pruyn and then NY state bought the land from TNC at 3.7 million more.  I am not sure if this bill has passed or not, or if it is still in the works.

In any case, the ADK's are a great place to be, regardless.

[rockman]

Tapper2, I am from Minera, my wife was the bank manager in North Creek for a few years.

[tapper2]

Small world, I went to Johnsburg Central. I'm sure you know my family, my grandparents are The Allens from Edwards Hill rd. in Bakers Mills. My grandfather was a teamer/sawyer/tapper/electrician....... he grew up in the time when work was all that....work.
When he was young he worked out in Foxx Lair, on the way to Wells NY. Those guys used steam shovels and water driven mills to build roads and bridges in that area.
He doesn't think much of the money grubbing politicians of the area. He's got a lot on the edge of a huge "forever wild" state lot of over 1000 acres, and they tried to claim eminent domain on his 2 acre lot!! >:( He's 87 now and still runs his sawmill/tractors/dozer and all quite often.
I'm sure your wife will know him.

He's got some beautiful spruce on his back lot that he wants to get some day, I'll have to get up there and help with the skidder.

[rockman]

Tapper2, Would your Grandfathers name be Earl? Yes my wife knows him. Back in the day I used to haul logs to Duane Dunkley's mill. Wow, that was about the time you were born. It is a small world.

Kevin

[tapper2]

Yeah, that's him! He bought a lot of lumber from Duane... Duane's mill got bought up by a Canadian outfit. They came in, disassembled all equipment and hauled it away. I remember watching them run the mill when I was a teenager.

Gotta love Dogtown!!  ;)

[rockman]

Back in the 80's I hauled wood for Butch Thissel, I went to school with his wife Wanda. And I have spent a few evenings at J&J'S..

[tapper2]

Butch is still goin'!! I too have been dragged out of the double hook. Great to hear some old time stories from the old timers at the gin mill. There used to be so many mills up there. Grist Mills, Sawmills, Shingle mills, you name it. Most were water powered. (Think you could get APA approval for one now?)  ;)

My grandfather still has the lineshaft and waterwheel assembly hardware from the mill that was on the creek on Edwards Hill rd. just above Duane's mill. He's tried to sell it a few times. Noone really wants things like that anymore.

[HiTech]

I agree forest and watershed protection is a must...but to a degree. Once you get a canopy forest...nothing grows new...not even wildlife. I can show you many places in the Adirondack's that sunlight never hits the ground. I feel some sort of low impact logging would prove beneficial. Perhaps with horses and very select cutting or smaller skidders that leave smaller footprints. Neatness does matter to more people than you may think. Mother Nature thinned some of the Park in "95". I can't begin to fathom the amount of lumber left to rot. The Emporium and Rich lumber companies were in the Cranberry Lake/Wanakena area years ago. My grandfather worked for many of these companies. With diving equipment you can still see some of the monster trees that are in the bottom of Cranberry Lake that were left from the logging era. I still have two of my grandfathers crosscut saws. My father had them sharpened my an old gent at the Ranger School in Wanakena back in the 50's. He used them to clear a lot for his camp. They weren't XP saws but they drew nice shavings.

What used to take all winter now can be done in a week or two. Harvesters and huge skidders that pull a truck load at at time. Is big really better? Would timber prices be better if the market wasn't continually flooded? Many go to chips but that isn't the answer either. By the time everything is paid for, it is just cash flow. Diesel fuel prices are outrageous not to mention repair bills and insurances. I sometimes wonder what the future will bring and where we are headed. The good thing is there are places in the Adirondack's that will take your breath away.
     

[rockman]

Hitech, I agree the "Forever Wild" needs to managed although I doubt it will happen in our lifetimes. As far as the equipment being bigger and operators doing more with less (employees), it's the same in every industry.
When I was growing up there was a sawmill or two in every town in the Adirondacks, most of the construction workers would cut wood in the winter after the construction season, I'm afraid those days are gone forever.
It is fun to see the video and old photo's of the way it used to be.

Kevin

[HiTech]

Rockman, back then you could get real lumber...not the undersized toothpicks they sell today. I can remember when you could buy 24" boards that hardly had any knots in them. Yup, every  town had a sawmill. Some had tanneries also. Even the bark wasn't wasted.

[wilson_tree]

That video is good. I work with the wife of one of the guys on the cross cut saw.  Last summer my kids and I hiked up to Roaring Brook Falls outside Keene Valley.  On the trail above the Falls is a stand of old growth Hemlock.  It took three boys to reach around that tree.  It was a sapling when Samuel De Champlain was exploring Lake Champlain.  I believe Forever Wild should stay that way.  There is a difference between a forest left on its own and one that's managed even a little bit.  I grew up logging the woods around Keene and Lake Placid and I would not trade the Forever part of Forever Wild for some cash in hand today.   I still do some small woodlot thinning and harvest the occasional load of sawlogs for private landowners.  Last year I worked in a small sawmill.  I'm not disconnected from the forest economy, but I don't think it can provide an economic fix for the region or the state.  This is a great discussion and I love hearing from other members in the Adirondack Park.  Thanks and Happy New Year. 

[JohnG28]

Rockman, thanks for posting that video.  I have seen it before somewhere, I want to say that it is part of a display at the ADK museum, but I'm not positive.  There is a great display of old Adirondack Logging at the museum.  Trapper2, I have an uncle that lives in Queensbury, it's a really nice area there.  Wilson-tree, I see your from Keene.  My wife and I are going there in a couple weeks to the Dartbrook Lodge for a little break.  I look forward to it as I have never been there before.  My family has a place in the southern Adirondacks, on Otter Lake.  I can't think of much better place to spend my time, when time permits.  There is the remains of a former Veneer Mill close to our camp, on the bank of the Moose River in McKeever.  There's not a whole lot left now.  My brothers and I have been through there many times though.  I have a few photos of it then and now though.  Wish I could have seen this place in it's day.


 


  


  


  


 
The little peninsula in the foreground of the last photo is where a dam once stood, creating a huge pond for logs to gather for the mill.  I can't seem to find that picture at the moment. ???

[rockman]

johnG28, thanks for the photo's, I love to see any and all photo's of the old days. The museum in Blue Mtn. Lake sells a video called Adirondack Sky Pilot all about the logging camps, log drives, tanneries etc. it is an awsome video if you get the chance.

Kevin

[rockman]

I was incorrect about the name of the video, the correct title is Lumberjack Sky Pilot.

Kevin

[JohnG28]

Kevin, thanks for the tip on the video.  I'll have to look for it next time I'm up there.  My wife and I stopped in Sep on our way down from Lake Placid.  I'll have to look for some more pictures, I know I have some more on my computer somewhere.  I love anything from the old days too.  I also agree with the forever wild concept, although the APA does have some work to do on other policies IMO.

[HiTech]

The Adirondack Park will never be the Virgin Timber it was it the late 1800's to early 1900's. I agree management of the Park is a must but is over management a good thing? When I was a kid I would drink out of any creek or stream up there...never got any disease. Today it could put you in the Hospital. I feel if we don't do a better job of managing it...Mother Nature may and we will probably not like what she does. She has a way of reclaiming and rejuvenating that can be devastating. One of the reasons she put beaver and porcupines on earth. The beavers flood and area killing all the trees and then leave when the food is gone. The damns eventually break and the flooded area turns into lush vegetation for the animals to dine on. The porcupines will girdle trees killing them, thus doing some thinning. Also they will chew off little hemlock branches in the winter and the deer feast on these. Logging serves a purpose other than putting $$$ in someone's pocket.

[KBforester]

You can still drink the water our of Adirondack streams. Can't tell you how many times I ran out of water lugging two gallons of tree paint on my back in the middle of July. Just gotta make sure the terrain doesn't flatten off above you... those beaver are the ones that will make you sick.

[rockman]

You can still drink the water our of Adirondack streams. Can't tell you how many times I ran out of water lugging two gallons of tree paint on my back in the middle of July. Just gotta make sure the terrain doesn't flatten off above you... those beaver are the ones that will make you sick.

Did you work for Finch or I P ?

[wilson_tree]

Those old pictures are great.  Thanks for sharing them.  I used to drink the water when I was a kid, too.  I still don't understand why Giardia is worse now then 30-40 years ago.  Is it from more human traffic in the backcountry or just from animals?  If it's from animals, why wasn't it a problem in the past? 

I do think the Adirondacks can have virgin growth again, just not in our lifetimes.  As the forests go through their natural cycle of regeneration, new timber will grow that hasn't been managed by anything but mother nature, and our great grand kids will have an Adirondack Park filled with old growth and wild places.  It sounds hopelessly romantic, but it's important to leave nature some place to thrive.  I look at the trade off for not protecting the Park.  Is it worth it to mess with the woods on a big scale for a short term economic gain?  Look at Tupper Lake as an example.  The town boomed on the timber industry for many years, but now that the timber money is gone the town is struggling to create a new future.  Can you create a sustainable timber economy?  How many people does it need to support in order to make it worth the cost of the impact it has?  The APA is a big gorilla, and I have dealt with their regulations and hated it, but I still think it's better to have the gorilla.

[HiTech]

Before white man came and really started to screw up the country..the Indians used to manage the forests with fires. Once they burned an area then they would have berry crops and vegetation for the game animals they used for food and clothing. I guess huge trees are nice to look at if that's all you want...like I said I can show you places in the Adirondack's that the sunlight doesn't hit the ground. What good is having a mature canopy forest? No saplings, no berries, nothing grows under these trees. I sometimes think people might better be more concerned with the salt the State spreads on the roads like Holy Water. What is that doing to our environment. Drive through the Adirondack's in the summer and see where the trees and vegetation have been burnt by the salt.

[John Mc]

I agree that NY state seems to have a love affair with salt. When I lived in the Syracuse area, the roads were white all winter long... but it was from the salt, not the snow.

I have to disagree with the characterization that nothing grows in a mature forest. In an earlier it was mentioned "not even wildlife" grows there. That is not true. Changing the makeup of the forest will change the species of wildlife that use it, but there are a number of species that use mature forest, just as there are a number of species that use early successional forests, and everything in between. There is a place for "forever wild" in this world. Has the Adirondack Park struck the right balance between forever wild and working forest? Probably not, but I'm not sure who is to say what the "right" balance is.

[HiTech]

Ever try to follow the Albany Trail? I tried a few times when I was younger. That was before the GPS. It took me to some magnificent spots in the Adirondacks. I found some stuff that was left along the Trail. Never sure if it was from old logging outfits or something from the Albany Trail days. In places you could see where a road had been at one time. Legend has it that a gold shipment sunk somewhere out there...never to be found. Along this trail exploration I found many places sunlight didn't hit the ground. I found evergreens that 4 or 5 men could barely get their arms around. These trees were huge. Not sure what type of creature uses this type of forest but I didn't see any. It looked like most of these trees came over with Columbus. I found Brook Trout out there that would easily break the State weight record. I had to cut some in 3 to 4 pieces to cook them in my fry pan. I was probably the only person out there as there was no trail to follow or camp sites set up. I saw no signs of trees ever being cut in most places. This was probably as close to Forever Wild as you could get. A compass and a map as your trail. I often thought it would be nice if the State opened the old Albany Trail up for hikers. Albany to Ogdensburg just think of it...you would see some Forever Wild and some would probably have houses on it. Just like the Erie Canal...progress has destroyed much of that. The Adirondack's are sort of a "Catch 22" situation.

[sailorman]

HiTech, What is the "Albany Trail"? Never heard a refernce to that. I live in Queensbury and have spent a great deal of time in the park, hiking, climbing, camping ect but never heard a refernce to that. Do you have any links to info on it? I take it that it is an abandoned road of some sort?

[HiTech]

From what I read it was a means of getting supplies from Ogdensburg to Albany or vice versa. I think mainly it was a Military Route. Another piece of our history in growing America. I think I found the map in National Geographic when they did an article on it. I am talking 40 years ago. Perhaps you could find something in a Library on it. I know it took me into some uncharted lands as far as I was concerned. There were times I was a little nervous if I would find my way out again. I found a huge iron box somewhere out there. It must have been 8 foot long, 4 foot high and 4 foot wide. It was flat on top for about a foot then hinged and took a downward slant. I did manage to get the top up a little and with the use of my flashlight found it contained compartments of various sizes. It was all riveted together...so I took it it was old. Never had a clue what it was used for. There was nothing inside and I could find no markings on it. I am almost positive I don't have that map anymore, but I am an awful pack rat so I may. If I run across it i will let you know.

[Bret4207]

Rockman and Taper, I'm from North Crick too! Knew Mr Earl Allen and Rev Daisy. Pansy, etc. Went to JCS, I'm sure we all know each others relations. Left there, went to wrenching on saws in Newcomb and Tupper, got a cushy state job ( worked with a Dabala guy) and have been up in the Ogdensburg area for close to 20 years. Getting back to wrenching on saws for a part time living. One brother still lives in NC and works at Gore.

If you ever went to J+Js you probably went to my folks place too, Basil and Wicks or Ridings depending on how long ago it was.

Small world, eh?


As far as the Adirondacks go there used to bee what? 8-10 mills in the North Creek area alone, plus IP and Finch. You couldn't get through down town most days with out almost getting squarshed by a log truck. Newcomb, Tupper, Old Forge, Racquette, Long Lake, Conifer and Piercefield were all booming from logging and mines. Now it's welfare, prisons, a few skiers that would just as soon be in Vermont if they could afford it and welfare. The total mismanagement, or lack of management, is a sin and a crime against the people living there. It drove me out as much as anything else. Remember Cuomo Srs 21st Century Bond Act? When they started talking about the restrictions he wanted, roof color etc, I'd had enough.

Ah, enough whining. Time to go through some wood on the fire.

[rockman]

 Hey Bret, it's like old home week here. Interesting to see how small the world has gotten.

Kevin

[tractorhal]

A little further North. Grew up in Whiteface area. Haselton Lumber,Ward lumber, JJ Rogers of Ausable Forks was big user of pulp. Both lumber cos. still going but do not know if they saw or truck it and resell. Tupper Lake also had a wood bowl?? co and the wood wood be stacked for 1/2 mile along Rt.3 headed west.Have some pictures of working in woods,all with horse, someday post. Remember when the first trails were cut for Whiteface Mt. ski center. Put Marble Mt. out of business. Plattsburg had paper cos. Tie still does some.

[wilson_tree]

Nice memories.  My brother worked for Sam Haselton for 10 years.  They don't mill any more, but did do some molding for a while.  Ward Lumber is still big.  I think they are one of only two pine mills in all of New York State.  Tupper Lake does not have a mill any more and the Wooden Bowl Co has been closed for a while.  A Vermont mill had a concentrating yard in Tupper, but I don't think that is even open any more.  There is a small mill in Lewis that does pallet stock and some dimensional lumber.  I'm headed there tomorrow.   There are still lots of small mills that are one or two man operations.  Lots of low grade being chipped now and trucked to Burlington, VT, Ticonderoga, and I'm not sure where else.  There are only a few of the little ski areas open now.  Mt Pisgah in Saranac Lake is operated by the town and Big Tupper is operated by volunteers.  My grandfather logged in the Lake Placid, Keene, and Redford areas in the 50's and 60's.  Then my dad and my brothers logged in Keene in the 70's and 80's.  Do you ever come back for a visit?  Joe Pete Wilson

[rockman]

Wilson_tree,  Yes, We travel back every summer for a week or so to the in-laws in Schroon Lake, no matter where I live Essex county will always be Home.

Kevin

[tractorhal]

I get back to the "North Country" occasionally, not as much as I should, or like to. I know where your(Grandfather, Father's) place is,was in Keene. Gordon's? JD? Who is JD in Plattsburg? During 40's 50',2-3 of my uncles worked for Willard and Charles. One worked his whole career there. Planer. My Grandfather and I cut pine by hand, skidded to landing with horse and Uncle would get truck on weekend, drive to landing through the woods from mill, saw, on his time? We would us for fences, barn repairs.   

[wilson_tree]

Rockman, Schroon Lake is a beautiful place.  We spent a summer in Paradox once when I was a kid.  We used to love going to the Sugar Bowl.  TractorHal, that was my grandfather and uncle Gordon who started the JD dealership.  My dad was younger and worked for them.  My dad was talking about cutting and peeling pulp when he was a kid.  I thought cutting and stacking 4 foot pulp sticks was bad, but at least we didn't have to peel it.  JD in Plattsburgh is Nortrax.  JD forced all the independent owners to sell to big regional congrlomerates so they could control pricing and inventory more effectively.  My dad is selling the last bit of property in Keene that is left over from the old JD days.  I pulled some chainsaws out of one of the barns: a Strunk, a Reed-Prentice Timberhog, and a couple Malls from the early 50's.  The R-P still had a tag on it, but I couldn't read the price.  It would be great to see some pictures from those days in the Adirondacks.  I don't think those guys ever thought of taking pictures of work, though.  Why the heck would you want to remember all those hours of busting your back? 

[Bret4207]

There are people around with photos and film from back int he 40's, 50's, 60's. Finding them is tough though. IIRC the Northern Logger had a mess of that stuff but it might have gone to the Blue Mt museum. Rev Frank Reed "The Lumberjack Sky Pilot" had a big bunch of film he shot. The Watertown PBS station had aVCR they offered at one time of Bill Saifs "Cabin Country" episode that they were giving away with a pledge. Not sure if it's still available.

ETA- Hey! Here it is! http://www.adirondack-books.com/wpbspilots.html

[Dave VH]

awesome history, guys.  I wish that google earth could go back 100 years so we could see what it was like back then.

[AdkStihl]

JJ Rogers


  

Ward Lumber