iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Silviculture work pays off

Started by Ken, December 18, 2011, 08:34:23 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Ken

Here is New Brunswick our government and industry has been doing pre-commercial thinning for the past 30+ years.  We are now beginning to see the benefits of this activity as many of the earliest treated stands are reaching merchantable size.  Over the next few years we will be spending most of time harvesting in these previously treated stands.  The piece size will be fairly uniform and there will be fewer unmerchantable stems than you may find in a natural untreated stand.

I have approximately 50 acres to harvest this winter that was thinned in the early 80's.  The area was agricultural land 45 years ago and when it was abandoned it regenerated to predominately white spruce.  The merchantable volume in these stands run between 40 and 50 cords/acre.  Although the piece size is not large the operating conditions are ideal. 





 



 
Lots of toys for working in the bush

jocco

I agree and did quite a bit of it in the states they could not seem to justify it or afford it in many cases. Pluss it brings in a lot of fill in work.
You may check out but you will never leave

Clark

So this is ~40 year old white spruce that is yielding 40-50 cords/acre?  That's pretty good!

It would be interesting to see some more PCT done here state-side.  I think for the ambitious land owner there is potentially great gain.  Private industry will never try it because the time value of money comes back to bite you and with no guaranteed results they are obviously hesitant to put their money on the line.  I think the gov't could justify it if they wanted to.  One way would be to see some sort of CCC-styled program brought back.  Certainly there are plenty of young men who aren't working right now.  The potential research projects that could be undertaken would be enormous.  The benefits for future forest production?  Look to Canada!

Are there any papers, studies or bulletins showing the changes between a forest that has had PCT work carried out vs one without?  I would be very interested to see them if they are out there.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

SwampDonkey

The returns are there. For those interested in improving quality and growth rate to sustain harvest levels without pulling out and moving onto the next patch of forest, then it's simple, you spend the money. It's money in the bank if your planning for your future existence on that land base.  You want to treat your best stands however, and not apply it to every acre in a blanket prescription. Not all soils support the returns. But like so many outfits they are impatient with their money and as you get older in life your end is getting near, so to some the benefit is for someone else so the investment wanes. Northern Europe is so far ahead of the game that it would put most outfits over here to shame.

The structure of the forest does change as you target certain species, like softwoods over hardwoods. So hardwoods are cut out. But it doesn't have to be that way if the government and mills didn't set the pecking order in their criteria. Up here spruce is king. But, when I thinned my woodlot I targeted all species. If there was a nice rock maple or white cedar beside a fir, the fir got cut. Fir is like weeds, no shortage of'm.

I took inventory of recent thinning I did over the last 6 years on the woodlot and with a lot of larger fir and aspen in the plantations I averaged 2.5 cords/acre of wood. That's with 2500 st/ha and no time yet for any self thinnings. I suspect there is a lot of suppression runt trees and dead snags in that stand. Just in front of that buncher, in the first pic, I see 4 stems that would probably not be of much value and the two closest usable stems look to be 18 feet apart.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

It pays off big time too in the South, although the first thinning is a commercial thinning.  I have commercially thinned as young as age 12 down here.  Thinning on time and thinning to the proper density has a dramatic impact in SYP. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

jocco

I would add to it that in some cases replanting is good also.
You may check out but you will never leave

SwampDonkey

Over the years up here what I have observed is that thinning has to be done every 25 years after planting or the first pre-commercial to keep the growth rate up. If you wait, say ten years beyond this, your stands suffer. That's what we do wrong here, we don't keep the thinning going. We seem to do the ground work during establishment and weeding and don't follow up with semi and commercial thinnings. There are hundreds of acres right now on private woodlots that need another thinning. The trouble is we are in a down swing in the economy, so the attention wanes when prices for wood are suppressed. Planning is long term, but short sited cash wise. I believe last year the marketing boards where developing criteria for the next stage or two of thinnings. Working out some tangible targets and subsidy rates with time studies. Probably a small percentage as there are a lot fewer outfits around to experiment with.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ed_K

Here in Ma.I have been doing TSI work for private land owners for 6yrs w/the state paying for a portion of the work. We just finished a 20 ac. parcel where it was cut 5yrs ago and now theres new oak/white pine regeneration.We spent our time cutting any other species from 1" to 10" and bad formed w/pine.The forester will have a logger come back in 2-3 yrs and finish the over story.Then it will start again.I hope to have a forwarder by then so I can bid on it.
I do find satifaction in this work,but wish they would do some pine suckering to may some great logs down the road,60-80 yrs.
Ed K

snowstorm

a clearcut ken?? are you wacking every tree in sight? nice looking wood just the rite size the chainsaw can stay in the truck all winter. so now that you have been ctl for a while you like it? i told you some days it would seem to good to be true. heat ac no flies. other days

Ken

Without doing silviculture work our forests would be a tangled mess of unmerchantables and thickets.  On average our forests regenerate with 10-15000 stems/acre.  Eventually a merchantable forest would take shape from those densities but the time before it could be harvested would take longer.  When we thin today our target densities are around 1000 trees/acre.  When the stand pictured above was thinned the practice was to leave 12-1500 stems/acre.   Therefore the crowns in many areas of those stands are narrow and may not respond well to a commercial thin.  Also, our market conditions do not allow for making a profit doing a light cut at todays rates.  If we had a strong pulp and stud market the opportunity would be there to do more commercial thinnings in these stands. 

The stand we are cutting now is mostly studwood quality with pulp out of the tops and smallest stems.  I agree that the stand would continue to develop into a higher quality (larger piece size) stand if left alone but I'm not going to argue with a client wanting to cut his/her property if that is their desire.

Clark,  There have been numerous studies done that have shown the differences between thinned and unthinned stands.  I'm not sure where exactly to find a link to some but will have a look when I find some time.   And yes the volume of 40+ cords/acre is there.  The basal area is averaging over 50 m3/ha.  Not sure of conversion to sq ft/acre.

snowstorm,  We are clearing the site.  You are right when you say that wood is just the right size for the harvester.  My machine is not nearly as large as many in our forests but works really well in that type of stand.  I do thoroughly enjoy cutting wood from the cab of a machine although I may be getting a little soft from sitting around pushing buttons and pulling levers.  Had to use the skidder and saws to clear a power line easement in a subdivision the other day and it nearly killed me.  The largest downside to running the machines is the fuel bill and trying to troubleshoot electrical problems when they present themselves.

Lots of toys for working in the bush

Ianab

I'm surprised how little importance is placed on early Silviculture in the US.

In this part of the world it's considered Vital to prune and thin in order to get a commercially viable harvest. Now we are usually growing plantation pine on a short rotation. But if unpruned logs are worth $50 a ton, but properly pruned butt logs are $300 / ton....

Assuming harvesting costs are the same, an un-pruned  tree may be worth $100. A pruned tree might be worth $350. Assuming $50 to harvest and transport. Unpruned tree is worth $50, properly managed tree is is worth $300. Cost per tree to prune and thin, $10?. Good investment? Sure is.

Now this is in NZ where you can harvest good pine sawlogs in 25 years. So an investment in silviculture pays off in your own life time. Different forests probably have a longer return, but a bit of careful work early on can certainly improve most forest types.

The local species are pretty much non-commercial, 200-400 year rotations is just a bit too much. The timber is fantasic and very valuable, but very limited supply. Sure they will regenerate, just not in our lifetime.. or our children's, or even our grandkids.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

snowstorm

ken dose your tj use a 6 wire boom cable or 26? mine has 6 and from what i have been told its the way to go. with 6 there is 2 hot 2 ground 2 can high and low they control everything the valves the length dia. troubleshooting can be a bit of a .......you know. jd dealer up your way are they good on ctl? as you know i was on my own with my keto

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Ken on December 20, 2011, 05:12:22 AM
the crowns in many areas of those stands are narrow and may not respond well to a commercial thin.  Also, our market conditions do not allow for making a profit doing a light cut at today's rates.

I agree that the stand would continue to develop into a higher quality (larger piece size) stand if left alone but I'm not going to argue with a client wanting to cut his/her property if that is their desire.

I agree on both counts Ken, you have to look at the economics and what the "boss man" landowner is going to do regardless of advice. Also, It's hard to eat when you turn jobs down. ;)


220 ft2/acre = 50 m2/ha  Would SYP grow that thick for 45 years? ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

No, it would self regulate through mortality from competition plus the beetles would get it if it was that thick.

Could you thin heavier initially and produce larger stems versus leaving so many trees?  I thin my SYP to about 175 trees/acre at the first thin. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

WDH, they don't seem to recommend below 600 st/acre in PCT work from years of density studies. But that has now been raised to 800 as a minimum in the last 3 or 4 years of the program. Spruce and fir are shade tolerant and the density helps self pruning. Manual pruning is not recommended because of cambium damage and they don't heal up as fast as pine, thus fungus and rot. I will be doing a thinning in 10 years in some sections of the woodlot and I will pay close attention not to be too open and cause dormant buds to limb out of the trunk. I've always said 1000-1200 st/acre is way too thick in spruce. Out west they plant 250-600 st/acre on the coast if you look at the silviculture guides. They are not planning on thinning, but letting the trees grow a longer rotation. They also have no hardwoods for competition to speak of besides alder, which does more good than harm probably.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Stephen Alford

Great thread,thanks for posting.   :)
logon

Clark

Ken - I know there are numerous studies on thinning and the benefits of it.  I was looking particularly for the benefits of pre-commercial thinnings.  Most of the studies I've run across deal with either central/southern hardwoods or pine. I can't seem to find much written about PCT in spruce/fir, northern hardwoods or the like.  There is some written about aspen but my mind tends to switch off when I hear that word!

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

SwampDonkey

There is a bit of literature tied up in scientific journals, thesis, and government reports. A lot isn't online. A lot of this literature you will only find with leg work and visits to brick and mortar. ;) If you search "thinning densities in spruce" you'll get some hits, look beyond the first search page. ;)

Oh, and don't forget the jobs. ;)


And aspen thinning isn't of much benefit, it self thins quickly. The only time to thin aspen is when it's mixed with other commercial species.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Furu

Nice discussion to stumble upon, considering I have recently completed PCT on  a stand of alder. Also did conifer release/thinning on a stand of Doug fir. Age of both stands is 10 years.  The alder (which used to be a junk tree but seems to be more valuable today) showed the last two years of growth had slowed significantly over the previous years (by as much as 50%)  It is going to be very interesting to continue to monitor these stand's growth rates post thinning.

Cutting Edge

Quote from: Ianab on December 20, 2011, 05:42:54 AM
I'm surprised how little importance is placed on early Silviculture in the US.

Assuming harvesting costs are the same, an un-pruned  tree may be worth $100. A pruned tree might be worth $350. Assuming $50 to harvest and transport. Unpruned tree is worth $50, properly managed tree is is worth $300. Cost per tree to prune and thin, $10?. Good investment? Sure is.

The local species are pretty much non-commercial, 200-400 year rotations is just a bit too much. The timber is fantasic and very valuable, but very limited supply. Sure they will regenerate, just not in our lifetime.. or our children's, or even our grandkids.

Ian

Guys I am no where near the level of what you fellas are at, but I learned alot of what I know from cruising timber, marking for thinnings, then followed by crop tree releases, prunings and alot of reclaimation work...sure planted alot and I hope to go back and visit and see how they are now.

But one thing I have noticed around here, and this may go for other parts of the country...private landowners are not looking to the future, they want the $$$ NOW.  They don't seem to understand the benefits of proper forestry practices, and in alot of cases think its a waste of money.  They can't see how $10 dollars now, will turn a profit 35-50 yrs down the road, or longer.  You try to explain it, and they look at ya like you're crazy.

Being predominatly hardwoods around here, that does put a damper on return vs time.  But there is so much that can be done, even by the landowner.  Easy stuff too.  I dunno, its all back to the buck.  They mostly seem to want to cut it all NOW and screw the next generations.  When it should be "Leave the best, Cut the rest."  IMHO  We all gotta eat.

I have had the pleasure of doing several private stands, and its amazing if you take before and after pictures...Landowners are shocked and it sure makes ya proud to know ya had a hand in it!
"Winning an argument isn't everything, as long as you are heard and understood" - W.S.


Cutting Edge Saw Service, LLC -
- Sharpening Services
- Portable/Custom Milling and Slabbing
- On-Site Sawmill Maintenance/Repair Services

Factory Direct Kasco WoodMaxx Blades
Ph- (304) 878-3343

jocco

Quote from: rwthom279 on January 07, 2012, 12:28:09 AM
Quote from: Ianab on December 20, 2011, 05:42:54 AM
I'm surprised how little importance is placed on early Silviculture in the US.

Assuming harvesting costs are the same, an un-pruned  tree may be worth $100. A pruned tree might be worth $350. Assuming $50 to harvest and transport. Unpruned tree is worth $50, properly managed tree is is worth $300. Cost per tree to prune and thin, $10?. Good investment? Sure is.

The local species are pretty much non-commercial, 200-400 year rotations is just a bit too much. The timber is fantasic and very valuable, but very limited supply. Sure they will regenerate, just not in our lifetime.. or our children's, or even our grandkids.

Ian

Guys I am no where near the level of what you fellas are at, but I learned alot of what I know from cruising timber, marking for thinnings, then followed by crop tree releases, prunings and alot of reclaimation work...sure planted alot and I hope to go back and visit and see how they are now.

But one thing I have noticed around here, and this may go for other parts of the country...private landowners are not looking to the future, they want the $$$ NOW.  They don't seem to understand the benefits of proper forestry practices, and in alot of cases think its a waste of money.  They can't see how $10 dollars now, will turn a profit 35-50 yrs down the road, or longer.  You try to explain it, and they look at ya like you're crazy.

Being predominatly hardwoods around here, that does put a damper on return vs time.  But there is so much that can be done, even by the landowner.  Easy stuff too.  I dunno, its all back to the buck.  They mostly seem to want to cut it all NOW and screw the next generations.  When it should be "Leave the best, Cut the rest."  IMHO  We all gotta eat.

I have had the pleasure of doing several private stands, and its amazing if you take before and after pictures...Landowners are shocked and it sure makes ya proud to know ya had a hand in it!
Very well said on private land owners not investing I think they need to be forced Example if land is in a tree tax program they have to do something to it. Many just let it set ideal.
You may check out but you will never leave

SwampDonkey

I don't think anyone should be forced into anything. Sounds like someone trying to drum up business based on government regulation. I just equate it to changing times. People don't rely on the woodlot for their income. It's mostly an emergency source of funds, heirship liquidations for cash, or source of funds for that new car or it's just land with trees they enjoy. Many that I deal with are detached from their woods and not interested in how it's growing, but that they have "woods" and land. Most of the time around here if a parcel of land is for sale the owner will liquidate it before the sale. Or it was cut within the last dozen years or so before the sale. If they had to pay for silviculture it would never get done. They have no money for it with day to day living expenses. Some don't even have the will or enthusiasm to thin it themselves, the armchair is much more comfortable. I've seen a number of woodlot owners take on a project like PCT, never done it before, then quit after the first acre or two because they lack the tools and experience to work smart.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Cutting Edge

Education is the Key!!!!! :P  Many landowners really don't know whats out there, better harvesting methods, etc.  If a stand could be done, or have an example to take them to...nothing like touch and feel...I think the attitude would change.  IMHO, WV's Forestry Dept. is lacking all many fronts...and has for years, but underfunding, cutbacks, etc. over the last 30 yrs is to blame, not the people.

Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 07, 2012, 09:04:56 AM
If they had to pay for silviculture it would never get done. They have no money for it with day to day living expenses. Some don't even have the will or enthusiasm to thin it themselves, the armchair is much more comfortable. I've seen a number of woodlot owners take on a project like PCT, never done it before, then quit after the first acre or two because they lack the tools and experience to work smart.

I'm sorry, but I call alot of that just being LAZY.  Again...EDUCATION.  There are programs that will help a landowner "Cradle to Grave".  But like you said "Armchair is more comfortable"... No money to get it done is no excuse either....Dept. of Nat'l Res. has stuff where the landowner can possibly have no capitol investment...WE NEED MORE EDUCATION!!!! dadgum you, Charlie!     

I'll shut-up, gettin' pithed just thinkin about it.   >:(
"Winning an argument isn't everything, as long as you are heard and understood" - W.S.


Cutting Edge Saw Service, LLC -
- Sharpening Services
- Portable/Custom Milling and Slabbing
- On-Site Sawmill Maintenance/Repair Services

Factory Direct Kasco WoodMaxx Blades
Ph- (304) 878-3343

SwampDonkey

Yeah, I read your point of view. But, you overlook the scenario where there are no handouts. You can't always go to the government for your job. If it's out of pocket, one will buy bread and milk before spacing bushes for no pay. ;)  The armchair guys will never do anything, except wait for the logger to deliver the cheques.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Phorester

Quote from: rwthom279 on January 07, 2012, 12:28:09 AM
Quote from: Ianab on December 20, 2011, 05:42:54 AM
I'm surprised how little importance is placed on early Silviculture in the US.

Assuming harvesting costs are the same, an un-pruned  tree may be worth $100. A pruned tree might be worth $350. Assuming $50 to harvest and transport. Unpruned tree is worth $50, properly managed tree is is worth $300. Cost per tree to prune and thin, $10?. Good investment? Sure is.

The local species are pretty much non-commercial, 200-400 year rotations is just a bit too much. The timber is fantasic and very valuable, but very limited supply. Sure they will regenerate, just not in our lifetime.. or our children's, or even our grandkids.

Ian

Guys I am no where near the level of what you fellas are at, but I learned alot of what I know from cruising timber, marking for thinnings, then followed by crop tree releases, prunings and alot of reclaimation work...sure planted alot and I hope to go back and visit and see how they are now.

But one thing I have noticed around here, and this may go for other parts of the country...private landowners are not looking to the future, they want the $$$ NOW.  They don't seem to understand the benefits of proper forestry practices, and in alot of cases think its a waste of money.  They can't see how $10 dollars now, will turn a profit 35-50 yrs down the road, or longer.  You try to explain it, and they look at ya like you're crazy.

Being predominatly hardwoods around here, that does put a damper on return vs time.  But there is so much that can be done, even by the landowner.  Easy stuff too.  I dunno, its all back to the buck.  They mostly seem to want to cut it all NOW and screw the next generations.  When it should be "Leave the best, Cut the rest."  IMHO  We all gotta eat.

I have had the pleasure of doing several private stands, and its amazing if you take before and after pictures...Landowners are shocked and it sure makes ya proud to know ya had a hand in it!

I started to reply with the same observation, but can't say it any better.  I have had practically no success in getting private landowners in my counties to cut trees if they cannot sell them for a profit.  (precomercial thinnings, crop tree release, etc.) 

They just think the woods will take care of themselves.


jocco

Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 07, 2012, 09:04:56 AM
I don't think anyone should be forced into anything. Sounds like someone trying to drum up business based on government regulation. I just equate it to changing times. People don't rely on the woodlot for their income. It's mostly an emergency source of funds, heirship liquidations for cash, or source of funds for that new car or it's just land with trees they enjoy. Many that I deal with are detached from their woods and not interested in how it's growing, but that they have "woods" and land. Most of the time around here if a parcel of land is for sale the owner will liquidate it before the sale. Or it was cut within the last dozen years or so before the sale. If they had to pay for silviculture it would never get done. They have no money for it with day to day living expenses. Some don't even have the will or enthusiasm to thin it themselves, the armchair is much more comfortable. I've seen a number of woodlot owners take on a project like PCT, never done it before, then quit after the first acre or two because they lack the tools and experience to work smart.
Swamp: I respect you on here but we differ a little bit. Here in the states there are tree/forestry programs that give a tax break many just enrole and (set it and forget it) There does need to be some standards. Here are examples that tick me off Some conservation group buys land and has no intent to do any forestry, small parcels get put in it that are not commercially viable for forestry all get tax breaks. Last there is no after tought from harvest like replanting  tsi etc.
You may check out but you will never leave

SwampDonkey

Wood land taxes here are very low, it costs more for the government to make out the paperwork and send it for their $27 on my 70 acres. :D

I can't get my head around tying up land unless it's a unique area that maybe represents a past era or something that they want to make parkland out of. Some day, when all the land gets tied up, then someone will come along and ask themselves why they are importing wood.  ::) It just goes to show you like I've said, people don't rely on woodlots as they once did for income.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

OneWithWood

Here, in Indiana, there is a lot of talk about booting folks out of the classified forest program if they do nothing.  With the pressure counties are under to squeeze as much as they can from property taxes the talk is starting to become more of a rumble.  Personally I would like to see more teeth in the program which I believe will result in more active mamagement of the resource.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

Cutting Edge

Having a woodlot is like having a garden.  If you don't weed it out, all you end up with is a big pile of trash, and little crop.  People gotta eat?  Well I'm sorry but they would already have viable income from their woodlots if they, or previous generations, would have treated the woods like a garden.

Alot of private holdings are now "weed patches" cause no one did any work!!!  Now the costs/labor involved are extremely out of ratio compared to recovery of QUALITY timber.  Most of the good timber is gone, and now we're stuck with OSB, MDF, etc..  Grant it, these materials have come about from waste recovery technology, but they've also come about from nessesity...not enough good timber coming in. 

I'll shut up, maybe I should stay outta this one.  *steps off soapbox*
"Winning an argument isn't everything, as long as you are heard and understood" - W.S.


Cutting Edge Saw Service, LLC -
- Sharpening Services
- Portable/Custom Milling and Slabbing
- On-Site Sawmill Maintenance/Repair Services

Factory Direct Kasco WoodMaxx Blades
Ph- (304) 878-3343

beenthere

I'm on the side of the Gov't butting out for the most part.
Way too much of "forcing" the landowner to do what someone else thinks they should be doing with their land.
Our early goals in WI with woodland in the tax program (early 60's) was to stop farmers from grazing and burning their land. Those were the only two qualifications to enter the program. A forest management plan was approved by the DNR to enter land in the program, and it could be written by the landowner.
Then the jealous ones started to get their oar in the water and slowly changed over to needing more and more Gov't control over the lands in the tax program. As the libs became more aware that they could foster more control over their neighbors property, so the program rules have changed to now require a full blown professional forester management plan that costs minimum of a couple thousand dollars. Along with the changes came the certified forests to fit the other liberal program that Gov't needs to control where the wood products came from, etc. etc. adinfinitum.
To counter the decision that the landowner would opt to keep his/her forest out of the tax program, the tax base of forested land jumped three fold, so any woodlot of any size is assessed at close to residential land and corresponding high taxes. That is how the Gov't takes your land from you.
The last forester that wrote my woodland plan decided my large red oak trees must be removed as well as some walnut trees needed to be bulldozed so the aspen could come back as aspen was good for deer (but we already had an overpopulation of deer). I preferred to keep the large oak for wildlife until they fell over and then I'd turn them into firewood. I preferred to manage the walnut over putting up with the short lived aspen. I don't think the forester had any idea or could care what I wanted. He was writing it so it looked warm and fuzzy to whoever else might read it. Maybe for a career feather in his hat.
I suggest not looking down our noses at the way someone else is enjoying their land, even tho it isn't how we would do it or want to see it done. i.e. don't covet thy neighbor
'nuff rant.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

jocco

Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 08, 2012, 11:21:01 AM
Wood land taxes here are very low, it costs more for the government to make out the paperwork and send it for their $27 on my 70 acres. :D

I can't get my head around tying up land unless it's a unique area that maybe represents a past era or something that they want to make parkland out of. Some day, when all the land gets tied up, then someone will come along and ask themselves why they are importing wood.  ::) It just goes to show you like I've said, people don't rely on woodlots as they once did for income.
swamp: taxes are low  Originally in my state the program was started to encourage land to be in forestry and to stop a wood lot from being turned into a subdivision. It has worked but there are always issues. My whole problem is  many areas use tsi, pre com thinning, replanting and there is very little of that here. Sems like cut it and forget it. I do a lot on my land as well as cut others but i believe in This type of work (and enjoy it) I due think some people buy wood land but do not realize what it entails its not a get rich quick thing. I do feel dome of this work will pay out in 30-50 years and landowners need to contribute. Look at how much employment all this silverculture brings in.
You may check out but you will never leave

Wood Doctor

One thing for sure; we will make mistakes! Silviculture is not a mistake. It is a proven practice with promise for our future. Forcing the issue may be out of bounds. Promoting and educating will gain headway to avoid a crisis or prevent some of the harmful practices we have allowed in the past. I am a novice and am just on the beginning of my journey into forest. My hope would be to make something of my efforts and labor, and not just "moola". A forum like this with sharing and understanding, even arguments will teach us all. It will help our Mother Earth keep us warm and breathing.  Yeah! F.F. ~m~   8)

Doppelganger

I use to do thining for profit.

Had more work that could handle and the profit was successful.  you have to be geared to do it and not take too many trees out.  In NZ wuth the growth rates of pine on can do two thinings, the second is for saw logs.   The final harvest is the most profitable as the size of trees means less handling under 10 logs to fill the bunks. 

the first thingings is pulp, firewood, Fence post and fence timber, boxing for concrete work.  low grade useof timber.  this can be done at any time here at 10 to 15 years.  There is no profit for the grower but can be done at no cost to the grower.
The second is 25 to 30 and is saw logs   About 2 feet in diameter and as the trees have been pruned and thin these are clears .  can be used for every purpose. 

The final and anything up to 60 years are trees at 4 feet in Dia.  less trees to cut down to make a load.this gives the greatest profit.  the amount of wood is about the same as if had not been thined.  Basically you loose no volume in thining to a stand that is not thinned overthe same preiod of time.

Thank You Sponsors!