Sawing with steam

steamsawyer · December 15, 2011, 05:40:31 PM

I didn't want to risk derailing simplicityguy92's thread about circular saw blades and I've been trying to get the time to come back and answer some questions about my sawmill.

First, thanks for the welcome to this forum.

Magicman,
The boiler does not have to be certified since it is on private property and not in public and yes, three steam whistles.

bandmiller2,
There is no coal around here in Florida, I fire with wood. This old engine has a firebox 4 feet long so you can pack a lot of slab wood in there. The best guess we have is that the engine was made between 1910 and 1918 maybe as late a 1921. The engine is very stable, it weighs nearly 16,000 pounds empty and hold 550 gallons of water. In my videos you see on youtube you can see everything runs pretty smooth. One video shows us splitting some utility poles in half, some are about 18-20 inches. I was getting a little belt slippage on them. I usually put a chain and come along tied off to a cypress stump behind the engine but since we had to take the halves off with the loader I had to leave the chain off so the tractor could pass behind the boiler. The mill is a J.A. Vance I'm guessing about 30s or 40s vintage. I can't find much information on Vance sawmills. I am turning a 52" 36 tooth blade at 500 RPM. There is 60' of track an a 16' carriage. I have cut 20' lumber on it that was only off by 3/16" end to end.... That's close enough for fence boards and cow pens.

This thing just started out as a hobby but now I have people lining up for custom sawing jobs. I stumbled into this site trying to find an idea what to charge for this kind of work. At least maybe I can get back some of my investment and some new bits once in a while. I think we all know that I picked the hard way to do things but that's what I get for being born in the wrong century.

Let me know if anyone needs more info or pictures... Check out my gallery and look up my youtube channel.... steamboatal.

Again, thanks to everyone,
Alan

Coon · December 15, 2011, 05:57:19 PM

Pictures of sawmills and steam engines are always nice to see. ;) Video is always nice to watch as well.

My Great Grandfather built his own steam engine along with many of his own pieces of equipment around the homestead. The steamer is a working downsized model of a Case. He has passed on now and the family has donated the steamer to the local museum. I have a copy of the article about it here from the local newspaper but when I scan it it don't come out very clear.

bandmiller2 · December 15, 2011, 09:00:22 PM

Alan,you have a big boiler there,my old Farquar held about 300 gal. and was probibly about 35 hp.What pressure do you run?? my boiler was an 150psi boiler when young, I didn't push things and ran at 80lb.Plenty of power for pine but 100psi or more would be better for oak.I'am a tad heavy and never enjoyed crawling into the firebox to replace tubes.Suppose if you painted the boiler flat black the Florida sun would almost get up steam,any trouble getting good draft when its real warm.? Frank C.

nas · December 15, 2011, 10:20:51 PM

Most of my slabwood goes to a local steam museum. They have a bunch of traction engines, mostly sawyer masseys because they were built locally. They have an open house around new years every year and I hope to attend this year. I will take pictures. Here is a couple from the steam heritage show last year.

Nick

mad murdock · December 15, 2011, 10:40:08 PM

Welcome steamsawyer and might I add you have got one awesome mill setup 8) I checked out you're vid on YouTube, all I can say is TOO COOL smiley_clapping smiley_clapping smiley_clapping smiley_clapping smiley_clapping I have been accused by my better half of being born in the wrong era as well. Seeing you're setup makes me want to put my dream to reality all the more! Thanks for sharing.

steamsawyer · December 16, 2011, 02:33:27 AM

Quote from: bandmiller2 on December 15, 2011, 09:00:22 PM
Alan,you have a big boiler there,my old Farquar held about 300 gal. and was probibly about 35 hp.What pressure do you run?? my boiler was an 150psi boiler when young, I didn't push things and ran at 80lb.Plenty of power for pine but 100psi or more would be better for oak.I'am a tad heavy and never enjoyed crawling into the firebox to replace tubes.Suppose if you painted the boiler flat black the Florida sun would almost get up steam,any trouble getting good draft when its real warm.? Frank C.

At the best educated guess by looking in old sales catalogs we think the old James Leffel engine was rated to be about 30-40 hp but would actually produce about 70 hp on a prony brake. It is a 9 1/2 x 10 engine. The boiler has 34 3" tubes 120" long. The Leffel engines in this size range had 150# boilers. Right now I have a 135# pop off valve on it. My very good friend Jeff Smith fires the engine. Born in West Virginia, he has been working steam most of his life. Jeff can keep the pressure just below pop off at 125-130# all day. No problem with draft, there is a 2" exhaust nozzle from the engine inside the base of the stack. Hang onto your hat when the firedoor is open.

That paint job has got to go too. The owner before me said he put the gray Rustoleum on it because that was the cheapest paint that Home Depot had. I do plan a facelift and a complete repaint in the near future. also repipeing most of the steam lines to the injectors and stuff.... Just as a footnote.... Back in the day it was common practice to brush the tubes and catch the soot then mix it with boiled linseed oil and use that for paint on the boiler and stack.

Alan

SwampDonkey · December 16, 2011, 04:53:29 AM

I like those old machines steamsawyer and nas.

In Maine I know they used steam on some type of over land yarder/train. Then of course all the steam locomotives across the country. Back here in New Brunswick there isn't much for old iron to go look at. It was most all taken out of here. Seems they take everything away from NB. :

In my mother's generation their was steam locomotives here and she's 68. But, we also had coal, one old mine has been worked for over 300 years. Now we aren't using coal anymore, so that mine is shut down. Here in the heart of farming country where we actually produce something from the land, we lost our trains to.

bandmiller2 · December 16, 2011, 06:27:14 AM

Swamper,you are refering to the Lombard log hauler made in Maine.The log hauler was the first to use catipillar tracks. Linked tracks on the rear and steering skies on the front took a crew of three to operate.There are still several laying on there sides in the Maine woods.I can remember visiting my aunt in Susex NB and watching the steam locos pulling the grade had no trouble knowing when they were coming. Frank C.

shelbycharger400 · December 16, 2011, 07:26:23 PM

those cams/levers look striking similar to the lift linkages on old case 3 bottom plows ( i have the lift arms and cams from a 1920's out back!) i plan on using them for #3 mill someday lol.

jueston · December 17, 2011, 03:59:17 PM

The history of early steam powered sawmills is really interested, I don't pretend to be an expert but in the book "a splintered history of wood"[a great read for anyone with sawdust in the blood] the author talks about how the biggest problem the early steam sawmills had was the competition destroying them with axes in the night. I believe the first steam powered sawmill was built around a steamboat which had run aground, and only ran for a short period before sawyers from a nearby mill destroyed it in the night....

I guess that's what happens when you mess with the livelihood of a group of huge men who have axes....

Al_Smith · December 17, 2011, 04:29:09 PM

I showed antique tractors for several years and went to several shows . It always amused when somethng like a John Deere 820 had to give it all it had on a big thresher or saw mill and a 40 HP case steamer pulled it with ease .

Once I had my 70 JD gasser on a baker fan and could crank about 400 rpm on it .A big Russel steamer got on that thing next and pulled an 8 inch belt into like is was nothing .Needless to say steam is very impressive .

Woodchuck53 · December 17, 2011, 08:13:58 PM

Had a chance to watch your video's. That is a nice set up. Only thing made me nervous was the young boy and open pulley's. I am still building guards for my place with the 10 year old grandson running around. Enjoyed the show.

bandmiller2 · December 18, 2011, 07:26:41 AM

As Al says steam engines will punch well above their weight class.The big factor is the boilers reserve energy, for a short time you can put a 2 or 3 hundred percent overload on them,their like a large battery.Insted of a short impulse like a gas or diesel the steam engine has force applied to the piston most of its travel boath ways.High pressure steam is not to be taken lightly, your handling dynamite. Frank C.

steamsawyer · December 18, 2011, 01:28:23 PM

What I like about steam is the speed and torque does not drop off so much with load. I had this engine on another sawmill right next to a Cat D8800, the steam engine would out pull the Cat. When you dive into a deep cut the diesel will loose a little speed then the torque starts dropping off, the harder you pull it the more you loose. Steam is much like an electric motor, the torque is nearly constant almost down to stall. This way the rpm stays up and blade speed stays up... Remember torque is the amount of work done and horsepower is how fast it gets done... By the way, I still have the 3-71 Detroit that came with the sawmill that I don't need, in case anybody needs one.

I don't know why I didn't have the stakes and rope up around the main belt and pulley that day but there is one to keep anyone from walking into it. The youngster running around in circles is Jacob, Jeff's son. Jeff drives up from Port St. Lucie (about 30 miles) to run the Leffel when we are sawing. Jeff is my engineere/fireman buddy and he keeps Jacob busy with firewood and oil can. Jeff has a 1/2 scale Case traction engine and Jacob helps him run it at shows. The little guy knows his way around a steam engine but he is still a little boy and he does little boy things, so we all keep an eye on him. Around a mill like this there are a lot of different things going different directions at the same time. You often have as many as four or five people working, sometimes people that want to help but don't know what they are doing. You always have to make yourself aware of each other and everyones safety.

Steamenginesmitty · March 15, 2012, 08:37:30 PM

Hello,

Alan don't forget that Jacob gets a 30 mile safety lecture both directions each trip...........

but we should put up a safety fence around the belt. I agree that he is a boy and does boy things, but I'm more worried about the drive-by visitors that stop and walk around the belt than Jacob because he has grown up around belts at my place and Grandpa's. He is also a scout so he has a pretty good head for safety at his age. I used to take corn shellers to his school to teach the children and I had to watch the parents and teachers more than the kids for sticking their fingers in where they don't belong.

As for Jimmy (that has been the James Leffel's nickname for years), it had a 4" grid U.T. on it, a hydro and a good visual by three different "Steam Men" in the area and deemed good to go. It is one of the easiest free steaming boilers that I have fired and is actually overkill for this mill in my opinion. I am positive that an edger and separate cut off saw could be belted overhead via an overhead line shaft and I would still not have any problem keeping up steam and engine power to the mill. The mill I grew up on was a Frick 01 with a 56" blade with a Frick 8-1/2" x 10" portable steam engine with a second steam engine operating the cut off saw and I had to be on my toes to keep at 150psi with that set-up, especially in some of the white oak logs that we sawed that were nearly 4' in diameter. I think this boiler could actually support two separate additional steam engines, one operating an edger and one on a cut off saw, but since Jimmy is old, I would rather only see him operate one additional engine or just another line shaft and not operate all of the items at the same time. If I didn't think Jimmy was a safe boiler, I would not put a fire in it or even be there watching. I am big on steam engine and boiler safety, and it won't be long now until everything around the mill has safety barriers.

Jeff

bandmiller2 · March 15, 2012, 09:52:12 PM

Steamsmitty welcome,I ran a mill with an 8 1/2x11"ajax mounted on a A B Farquar boiler,probibly in the neighborhood of 35hp.When you fired the Frick back home did you have trouble keeping 150 psi with wood.My boiler was designed for 150 psi in its prime, due to erosion of the stay bolts over the crown sheet I only ran 80lbs.I would hydro it to 160 lbs.Found it hard to keep pressure up with wood,had to keep right at stoking.I ran a 35hp Copus gear reduction turbine to power my shingle mill,felt like it was blowing steam out a window.Kept the fireman busy I could tell on the saw if he dropped 5 psi.Love the smell of compounded cylinder oil and the sounds when it was pulling.Frank C.

b dukes · March 15, 2012, 10:20:00 PM

Steamsawyer,
I am in need of an engine to free up my tractor. PM me., what part of FL are you from. I do work in the panhandle and across the northern part. I would like to come by and see her run. Never seen a steamer in action.

Steamenginesmitty · March 15, 2012, 10:42:17 PM

When you fired the Frick back home did you have trouble keeping 150 psi with wood.

I had some great mentors to teach me. For a very long time I just got to turn the injector on and carry wood, but in time I got to start firing. One time they were sawing really large white oak and they had to stop the mill for me to build up pressure and they razzed me so much that I never let that happen again. After a few science classes in school I realized what my mentors were trying to teach me about the smaller scraps in the holes to fill the voids and also so it would burn faster for instant heat when headed down on the needle. After I understood that concept better, I would split a lot of the slabs into smaller pieces because we always used the green slabs coming right off of the log and there was not enough heat as a full slab because it would take so long to burn so I was younger and had a lot of energy so I would split stuff just because I enjoyed splitting stuff with the axe. Now that I am older I don't use the axe as much and I use my mind more and "select" the right piece from the slab pile so I don't have to split as much............ ;D
I had to use the slabs from the mill and if I tried to use the coal from the coal pile for the burnside stoves I would catch flack, although I do know how to fire with coal because I also fired a steam locomotive for many years as a volunteer. I did give Alan a small load of coal and I found humor that many of the people in Florida had never seen coal until I dropped off that load. We have not used any of it yet, but I will use it in my much smaller steam engine when I bring it up to Alan's mill for a turn with my little engine. I hope to make some paint sticks with it since the mill is so large......... :D

Steamenginesmitty · March 15, 2012, 10:48:07 PM

Quote from: b dukes on March 15, 2012, 10:20:00 PM
Steamsawyer,
I am in need of an engine to free up my tractor. PM me., what part of FL are you from. I do work in the panhandle and across the northern part. I would like to come by and see her run. Never seen a steamer in action.

You have many nice steam mills in Ga. Mr. Norman has one in Hinesville, and there is one on 75 at Tifton (Agriroma) and also in Cumming to name a few.

zopi · March 16, 2012, 12:16:05 AM

coool thread...I am huge fan of steam..one day, I will either find a little engine to play with or build one...set of plans sitting here...vertical marine engine with reversing gear..once I get to be a good enough founder, I will turn her out in bronze and cast iron...three inch bore..

it is really true...there is alot of art in firing a wood boiler...

steamsawyer · March 16, 2012, 12:29:50 AM

Welcome aboard Jeff,

I was wondering when you were going to show up. I think you will like it here. We need to get some of the other steam sawmill guys over here from Harry's Old Engine... Smokstak...

"Alan don't forget that Jacob gets a 30 mile safety lecture both directions each trip........... but we should put up a safety fence around the belt." You haven't seen the new stakes I made with all that re-bar you gave me... but you hnave seen the yellow rope... The barrier will be up next time we run. At times I wish some of the grownups were as safety concious as Jacob.

So Jeff, if I get time tomorrow I will call Mike at Stellar Industries and order some new hand hole gaskets. I want to order some new gauge glass to. We are about overdue for another saw day.

steamsawyer · March 16, 2012, 12:34:15 AM

Quote from: zopi on March 16, 2012, 12:16:05 AM
coool thread...I am huge fan of steam..one day, I will either find a little engine to play with or build one...set of plans sitting here...vertical marine engine with reversing gear..once I get to be a good enough founder, I will turn her out in bronze and cast iron...three inch bore..

it is really true...there is alot of art in firing a wood boiler...

Thanks Zopi,
Let's see if we can get Steamenginesmitty to post some pictures of his traction engine.... Jeff is literally a treasure trove of all things steam.

zopi · March 16, 2012, 12:39:03 AM

fellow up the road brings his little tractio engine to the Chippokes plantaion every year...I always enjoy watching him..

I would love to build a small scale sawmill to match the model engine...prolly never happen though.

steamsawyer · March 16, 2012, 12:50:18 AM

Quote from: b dukes on March 15, 2012, 10:20:00 PM
Steamsawyer,
I am in need of an engine to free up my tractor. PM me., what part of FL are you from. I do work in the panhandle and across the northern part. I would like to come by and see her run. Never seen a steamer in action.

I am still trying to figure out what to do with that 3-71. I can't decide whether to keep or sell it. I suppose if started getting some real lumber orders I should hook it up and use it myself.

I'm on the central east coast. If you go to my profile map and zoom it all the way in my mill is right under that big oak tree. You can see the track and cariage sticking out in the open in the white spot of new fill dirt.

Steamenginesmitty · March 16, 2012, 02:53:53 AM

Thanks Zopi,
Let's see if we can get Steamenginesmitty to post some pictures of his traction engine.... Jeff is literally a treasure trove of all things steam.

http://www.smokstak.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=69307&d=1260952656

This is actually a new engine with a code boiler and first steamed in 2009, but I like the "work clothes" look of it not being painted yet. I gave Alan another pulley to machine the bore and add to his arbor so that I could make paint sticks on his mill with my engine. This picture was taken in Fort Pierce where I took it to the P.A.L. "Toys for Tots" run one Christmas. I would like to find an old Fowley Belsaw mill to operate with it someday. The one I found in WV the man wouldn't sell and I kept trying to buy it and then when he called me back the last time he said he had sold it but wished he had kept it.