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DIY Fellerbuncher

Started by northforker, December 14, 2011, 11:48:42 PM

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semologger

northforker you didnt stop at the red light in your first video.

barbender

Northforker- I have seen that Danzco website. I'll look into it more when I get more serious about the project. BTW, I wouldn't make any apologies about your fabrication skills.
Too many irons in the fire

Taylortractornut

Northforker I d say you fall into the Fabricator bracket to.   I have a 14 gpm loader Id like to build a bar sawhead for it.     I worked in a yard that had  one that ran  was set up on one circuit.  for the saw.  The saw bar had a line teed to the cylinder it then  went to the motor.   The bar would push out as the motor had a restrictor orifice  it that let the fluid go to the cylinder first.  Then the chain hit the trun the chain would run.    The return for the bar cylinder was run off the  grapple opening.
My overload permit starts after sunset

barbender

Taylor, what was that bar saw on?
Too many irons in the fire

northforker

How well did that bar saw work Taylor? I wondering in the split hydraulic circuit you describe, what would happen if the saw started to bog? It seems to me that more PSI would push the bar out faster in that case and then cause the saw to slow even more. Wouldn't you want the bar feed to slow as sawing becomes difficult? I guess if the saw has plenty of power it's not an issue.

Ron Scott

Well done on the DIY Fellerbuncher. Do you have a lot of mountain beetle killed trees to work it on where you are located?
~Ron

northforker

Thanks Ron. The beetles are not quite here yet but are getting very close. I wouldn't be surprised to see them here next summer. Anybody have any luck with Verbenone?

Taylortractornut

They had it on 2 setups.  THe first one was a  small shear head frame on an old Melroe Bobcat.  Then later had it on a  knuckle boom grapple one tim for bucking logs.     I haven seen it in a while. It worked out pretty good.    When the bar slowed down a the cylinder pushed a bit harder then the resistance from the cylinder would make the motor spin faster.    It seemed to work really well.   I think the one line and the set up actually metered itself better than 2 circuits. 
My overload permit starts after sunset

northforker

Thanks Taylor. That's intriguing. Anyway, it's simple enough to give it a shot and I'm all for simplicity. I use a simple circuit for the hydraulic chute rotator on my snowblower that might work too that used a single circuit. I run the auger through the valve body of an old log splitter valve. This would be in the P-T circuit so it's running all the time that I have the Aux circuit engaged. The motor that rotates the chute uses the work ports on the valve. By feathering the valve lever, I can move the chute fast or slow without robbing the auger motor of much flow at all. I think this could work for a bar saw setup as well, where I would use a bar cylinder in place of the chute rotator motor.

mad murdock

Quote from: northforker on December 18, 2011, 01:48:46 PM
The beetles are not quite here yet but are getting very close. I wouldn't be surprised to see them here next summer. Anybody have any luck with Verbenone?
We did 5 years of research application for private timber co's and the USFS on test plots in CA, WA, ID, and MT using verbenone, the results were very good.  When the first large(ish) job came up for bid in 2010, The Government awarded the job to a company that had never applied the product, but because they had written a book on how they were going to do a good job, they got the bid, even though we were a bit under them in price.  I don't know if it was because of poor application results on that upscaled job, or if it was because of the government funding woes, either way, there has not been any more of that work.  The results on all of the test plots we had done, were excellent.  The disrupter flakes worked very well it stopping the beetle propagation.  BTW, I would not be ashamed of your fab work either!
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

jr-transport

Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on December 15, 2011, 08:34:48 AM
Quote from: Piston on December 15, 2011, 07:28:25 AMI'd get in trouble with one of those things!  ;D

Very nice work. I too would get in trouble with that. I would have the entire farm treeless just because it was so fun to play with. hahaha  8)


Ditto.
Looks good, and welcom here!
If it's worth doing,it's worth OVER doing!

snowstorm

Quote from: northforker on December 19, 2011, 05:08:25 PM
Thanks Taylor. That's intriguing. Anyway, it's simple enough to give it a shot and I'm all for simplicity. I use a simple circuit for the hydraulic chute rotator on my snowblower that might work too that used a single circuit. I run the auger through the valve body of an old log splitter valve. This would be in the P-T circuit so it's running all the time that I have the Aux circuit engaged. The motor that rotates the chute uses the work ports on the valve. By feathering the valve lever, I can move the chute fast or slow without robbing the auger motor of much flow at all. I think this could work for a bar saw setup as well, where I would use a bar cylinder in place of the chute rotator motor.
a priority valve would help.load sensing pressure compensated valves would be even better

northforker

Thanks Murdock. I've not heard of the flakes and will have to read up on that. Good, so the Verbenone works. The downside is that it's a bit pricey, at least for consumers. It seems cost ~ $20+ for a 2 pack. I read somewhere that you should hang 35 per acre. The $ adds up quick!

Quote from: mad murdock on December 19, 2011, 05:18:42 PM
Quote from: northforker on December 18, 2011, 01:48:46 PM
The beetles are not quite here yet but are getting very close. I wouldn't be surprised to see them here next summer. Anybody have any luck with Verbenone?
We did 5 years of research application for private timber co's and the USFS on test plots in CA, WA, ID, and MT using verbenone, the results were very good.  When the first large(ish) job came up for bid in 2010, The Government awarded the job to a company that had never applied the product, but because they had written a book on how they were going to do a good job, they got the bid, even though we were a bit under them in price.  I don't know if it was because of poor application results on that upscaled job, or if it was because of the government funding woes, either way, there has not been any more of that work.  The results on all of the test plots we had done, were excellent.  The disrupter flakes worked very well it stopping the beetle propagation.  BTW, I would not be ashamed of your fab work either!

northforker

Quote from: snowstorm on December 19, 2011, 08:17:18 PM
a priority valve would help.load sensing pressure compensated valves would be even better

Good stuff for me to think about. Now you guys have me half starting another project! I get how a priority valve apportions the flow between the saw motor and bar, but would this work if the bar is moved by a double acting cylinder, or would you have to put in a directional valve downstream of the divider on the bar circuit? I'll have to do some more reading on the load-sensing pressure compensated valves. The ones I'm familiar with are used in conjunction with a variable displacement pump. Without knowing anything else (which I don't) ideally you'd be in tall cotton if you had a valve that could sense delta-P across the saw motor and inversely meter flow to the bar cylinder - so that if delta-P increases, bar advances slower and vice versa. Thoughts?

snowstorm

rexroth made load sensing pressure compensatered valves  valmet used them. with an open center gear pump. am surprised you have power enought with only 25gpm. what psi are you at?

northforker

Thanks Snowstorm. I'll look into the Rexroth valve. The saw seems to have plenty of power. Bear in mind that I'm not cutting down 20" hardwood or anything, just up to about 14" softwood. The aux. high-flow hydraulics on my machine are rated for 3000 PSI, but I'm sure I never get close to that. The saw is designed to cut mostly with angular momentum, just a disc weighing a couple of hundred pounds spinning at nearly 1000 rpm. By the time the disc start to lose momentum, I'm already through the tree. I use small teeth (1-1/8") for a relatively narrow kerf too which cuts down on the power requirements.

Quote from: snowstorm on December 20, 2011, 05:17:24 PM
rexroth made load sensing pressure compensatered valves  valmet used them. with an open center gear pump. am surprised you have power enought with only 25gpm. what psi are you at?

customsawyer

Nice looking work. You certainly do fine on the fab work IMHO.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

sjfarkas

Nice job.  I like your ingenuity.  I wish I had time to build attachments for skid steers.  A bar saw would be cool too.
Always try it twice, the first time could've been a fluke.

John Mc

Quote from: snowstorm on December 20, 2011, 05:17:24 PM
rexroth made load sensing pressure compensatered valves  valmet used them. with an open center gear pump. am surprised you have power enought with only 25gpm. what psi are you at?

Wouldn't the flow rate just affect the speed? I'd guess the torque would be more a function of pressure.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

snowstorm

Quote from: John Mc on December 23, 2011, 10:08:23 AM
Quote from: snowstorm on December 20, 2011, 05:17:24 PM
rexroth made load sensing pressure compensatered valves  valmet used them. with an open center gear pump. am surprised you have power enought with only 25gpm. what psi are you at?

Wouldn't the flow rate just affect the speed? I'd guess the torque would be more a function of pressure.
well sort of. on a cyl. the more the gpm then it should be faster. with a hydr. motor a little different. lets say you have a pulp loader with a 25gpm pump 2100psi. the main boom will lift a lot. but the bucket rotator dose not have a lot of turn power. most full size hot saws run what 70gpm??? at 4500psi???. at one time i had a morbark shear 14" rapid buncher it stood up well worked good and was happy with 25gpm. there used to be quite a few around here

northforker

Quote from: snowstorm on December 24, 2011, 07:49:20 AM
well sort of. on a cyl. the more the gpm then it should be faster. with a hydr. motor a little different. lets say you have a pulp loader with a 25gpm pump 2100psi. the main boom will lift a lot. but the bucket rotator dose not have a lot of turn power. most full size hot saws run what 70gpm??? at 4500psi???. at one time i had a morbark shear 14" rapid buncher it stood up well worked good and was happy with 25gpm. there used to be quite a few around here

It's all a matter of scale. Let's look at it this way, a Quadco C series 52" disk (their smallest) weight with teeth and holders is 604 lbs. My 36" disk with teeth is ~ 200 lbs. We can calculate the moment of inertia (discs' resistance to change in rotation) with the formula 1/2*mass*r^2. The Quadco's moment of inertia works out to be ~1409 lbft^2 whereas my disc's moment is only 225 lbft^2. The Quadco disc's moment is 6.26 times greater than mine. Now, given that torque=moment of inertia*acceleration, it follows that to accelerate either disc to any equal speed requires the motor driving the Quadco disc to supply 6.26 as much torque as my motor, and that much more torque to keep the disc spinning at a constant speed when encountering any resistance during cutting. So the big hotsaws require much more power and torque just to get them up to speed compared with mine, this is before anything is cut.

Obviously, the moment of inertia works in the larger saws favor as once that sucker is spinning, it's going to take that much more cutting resistance to slow it down. Once my little saw starts bogging down, it will rely more on the torque of the motor as opposed to disc momentum. That's why if I scaled it to cut let's say 20" trees it probably would not work well - I wouldn't be through the cut before the disc lost momentum. I would probably have to stop halfway through to let the blade speed up again. However, for the small timber I'm working with, softwood up to 14" or so, this hasn't been an issue so far.

Thanks again to everybody for the comments. Have a Merry Christmas and Happy sawdust-filled New Year!


snowstorm

all the math makwes my head hurt. i know the vp at quadco. interesting guy

northforker

Yeah, mine too. I was hoping someone would check it for me! What a cool job it would be to work at a place like Quadco. Imagine getting paid to do this stuff.

Quote from: snowstorm on December 24, 2011, 06:47:19 PM
all the math makwes my head hurt. i know the vp at quadco. interesting guy

John Mc

Northforker -

I believe those moment of inertia formulas only work if all of the mass is concentrated right at the rim of the disk. To find the true moment, you have to do integration (integrate as r goes from 0 to 26" for the Quadco disk). It's been too long since I've had to do that to even attempt it.

Also, you may be missing a time variable in your torque calculations: "to accelerate either disc to any equal speed" in the same amount of time...
With identical torque, if you were willing to wait a whole lot longer for the Quadco disk to come up to speed.

The last time I dealt with this stuff was a couple years out of college (and I probably had to look it up then), so I may be all wet on this...
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

northforker

 Thanks for checking John! Nope, it's not that complicated. Start here. Moment of inertia for a point mass is just the mass multiplied by the distance between the point and the rotational axis squared, that is to say I=M*r2. The same equation can be used for an infinitely thin hollow cylinder with mass M with radius r, no? Okay, one step further. Let's suppose we have a hollow cylinder with a finite thickness rotating about its axis. It's moment of inertia will be the mass of the cylinder multiplied by the radius of the average thickness of the cylinder or I=1/2M*(cylinder's inside radius2 + cylinder's outside radius2) or I=1/2M*(ri2+ro2). Okay? Now last step, let's look at a solid cylinder (a disc in our case). Let's take the last formula and substitute "0" for ri since our cylinder is no longer hollow. That leaves us with I=1/2M*(0+ro2) or as I put it earlier I=1/2M*r2  ;) .

Yes, you are exactly right about the time variable that is what I meant to imply "in the same amount of time." There's no doubt that I could get the Quadco disc up to speed eventually, but life is short. Plus, what would I do once I cut through a 20" tree grasped by my little ASV loader... :o? Okay, enough geek stuff for 2011 already.

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