Marking timber

[rfm7fxfox]

Heres my gripe/question...when you guys mark trees what do you look at besides one side of the tree you're marking and do you look up the tree or just eye level? What I mean is why would you mark a tree with a heavy lean thats surrounded by other large trees  and not mark them? Or mark a tree thats heavy over the landowners shed, pool, house, etc...why even mark it?  In many cases I have seen trees marked and there is no way possible to fell the tree and have it 

A. Not hang up in surrounding unmarked trees and smash/break other trees
B. Take off down the side of a cliff with no way to retrieve the felled tree.
C. Have to fell 10 other unmarked trees just to get to one
Or
D. Smash a house, shed, powerlines or anything else surrounding it

A good chopper can lay trees where they want them for the most part but sometimes there is just no possible way to get it to the ground..


Seems like to me many foresters dont have actual in the field logging experience, maybe that should be a requirement?

Any ways im not saying that every forester does it but I have seen many wood lots that look like a child ran through it with a can of spray paint, trees that are too small to be log trees but are marked as log trees, rotten garbage trees that every woodland creature in the forest lives in, trees that are marked but you have to take down 10 other unmarked trees just to get that one, trees marked in the middle of a swamp (howd you get to it by boat?) trees on the side of a cliff with a heavy lean over the edge...why would you even mark that its not like I have a hellicopter!
So what I would like to know is how many foresters actually have logging experience? What I mean by logging experience is how many of you guys actually have been in the field with a chainsaw and chopped trees for a living? (not a equipment operator) Cause from what ive seen lately the forester who has been marking the lots ive been on doesnt see anything or take anything into consideration other than one side of the tree at eye level and the tip of their paint can..

[beenthere]

I'd say the trees are marked that need to come down for the management plan, whatever that is.
Up to the faller to get the tree out, not up to the forester to avoid marking a difficult tree.

And to use your words "Loggers do it best in the woods".

[WDH]

You make some good points.  Marking is a real skill.  You have to think about the equipment and how the trees will be removed.  Understanding how the trees will be removed comes first in my opinion because it has to be practical to remove the trees or why mark them in the first place. 

A Forester does not have to be a logger to do a good marking job; the Forester has to understand how the logging will be done and fit the marking to the removal.  In the South, everything is mechanical, so you have to understand where the loading decks will be and how the wood will be skidded out so that you know which side of the trees to mark so that the fellerbuncher operator can see them and fell them so that the skidders can make the pull back to the deck.  It should be about planning, but many Foresters do not understand this well enough as you point out. 

[SUNYESF]

Up where I'm marking, most harvests will use mechanized equipment, allowing me to mark trees with lean without planning for felling. Of course, a whole bunch of different occurrences have to be planned for than would normally occur with the guy running a chainsaw and small skidder.

As for having to log, it's an interesting idea, but not really necessary. I've worked with foresters from cities that learned strictly from college and foresters that worked their way up from company crews (no education requirement in NY). In my opinion, it's easy enough to walk the site during harvesting and talk to the operators to get a feel for any comments/complaints they may have. No one should be too proud to ask "how could I have done this better".

[Magicman]

I have seen trees marked that the logger refused to fell, even with mechanical means.  Close to a roadway or power line.  I got paid for them with the contract and the buyer simply had to "eat" those trees.  They are marked and still standing.  I guess they will be sold again next time.

My Forester's job was to mark and scale the timber for a sale.  The buyer had to take into account any potentially unharvestable trees and make any allowance for them with his bid.

[Ron Scott]

I agree that there is a skill to timber marking just as there is to falling trees. Some loggers can fall the more difficult trees with little effort and others can't.

We usually mark the trees to be cut with a painted ring around the tree at breast height and a painted stump mark, so we are looking around the entire tree and at the tops since we also cruise the topwood. The marked trees are to be removed.

We mark as though we have to fall the trees and consider what damages might result to other trees,regeneration, etc. affected by the falling. Landowners often want us to cut difficult trees around their buildings, roads, powerlines etc. If there are any risks involved we do not mark such trees and refer them to the tree service people, power company, county road commission etc. who are equiped to handle such trees and any resulting damages.

Leaners and hazard trees in the general forest areas being logged are usually fallen by our "experienced" loggers without any problem. We work as partners with our loggers and if they should have a problem with falling any particular tree that we have marked, they are to bring it to our attention and we "work it out" so that it can be safely fallen.

They just don't go off on their own picking and choosing which trees that they can easily  fall. They are responsible for cutting the marked trees as specified in their timber harvest contract as marked by the forester.

If a logger determines that they can not fall the trees as marked, they should discuss it with the forester before they purchase the sale. ;)

[stavebuyer]

I agree that there is a skill to timber marking just as there is to falling trees. Some loggers can fall the more difficult trees with little effort and others can't.

We usually mark the trees to be cut with a painted ring around the tree at breast height and a painted stump mark, so we are looking around the entire tree and at the tops since we also cruise the topwood. The marked trees are to be removed.

We mark as though we have to fall the trees and consider what damages might result to other trees,regeneration, etc. affected by the falling. Landowners often want us to cut difficult trees around their buildings, roads, powerlines etc. If there are any risks involved we do not mark such trees and refer them to the tree service people, power company, county road commission etc. who are equiped to handle such trees and any resulting damages.

Leaners and hazard trees in the general forest areas being logged are usually fallen by our "experienced" loggers without any problem. We work as partners with our loggers and if they should have a problem with falling any particular tree that we have marked, they are to bring it to our attention and we "work it out" so that it can be safely fallen.

They just don't go off on their own picking and choosing which trees that they can easily  fall. They are responsible for cutting the marked trees as specified in their timber harvest contract as marked by the forester.

If a logger determines that they can not fall the trees as marked, they should discuss it with the forester before they purchase the sale. ;)

Having worked as a logger, procurement forester, and marking timber for landowners I appreciate Ron's approach. As a buyer..any tract of timber was worth x dollars at the mill less harvesting and hauling costs. The bid to the landowner was the remainder. Pulpwood marked as sawtimber, trees marked for veneer that weren't, hard leaners that were impractical to harvest etc. were all valued accordingly. I have a bought more than a few sales that would have netted the landowner more had a realistic logging plan been considered. If tree service work or TSI work was bundled into the sale either I didn't bid or reduced what I paid for the actually merchantable trees.

[SwampDonkey]

I've seen some loggers get excited just because a lot was marked at all. They wanted free range. And their work reflected their ethics. :D

One phrase that comes to mind was: "If the landowner wants it a certain way, tell him to come out and do the supervising."

Around here, most landowners never visit the woods operation, they just wait for the cheques.

[woodtroll]

I have chased marked trees with a saw and wondered which goofy stick hit the marker.
I have marked trees after being hit with the goofy stick, going back and wonder what I was thinking.
I've missed patches of trees, some times intentional a few times not.
When I mark a stand I have specific goals for that stand. That may mean removing/cutting the junk, cull, leaning, hard to get trees.
If a buyer doesn't want them then bid accordingly. I factor them in to my appraised price.
There may be a buyer with a market for the junk tree you do not want.
I do know that lower value trees don't ever get cut by mistake, but high value trees do.
I have left patches of timber within a cutting unit, the buyers and loggers could not understand why they were left,
I had another market for the wood, by thinning them and making posts I could get 4x's the money. That happens sometimes.
So when your out sloshing around, cursing us dumb foresters, remember we may need special care, we have likely been hit in the head by a goofy stick...
swung by a logger who doesn't understand our marking.

[Gary_C]

You make some good points.  Marking is a real skill. 

I work on mostly DNR contracts and because of what WDH said, all DNR timber sales are required to have the foresters name on the sale along with the supervisor that signed off on the bid sheet. And this way you know and can bid accordingly or not bid at all. And yes, there is a huge difference in marking abilities of those foresters. 

And through meetings and forest management guideline training sessions, the loggers have educated some of these foresters in how not to mark timber sales. And one of the best changes is on most conifer thinnings where only boundaries are marked and the job is left as an "operator select" thinning to a specified basal area number. And on hardwood thinnings, the foresters usually do a better job of marking trees so the marks are visible from any direction, and not just in the direction the forester was walking thru the stand. And knowing that loggers are able to know and grade their work has made for better marking jobs on all sales.

But the problem is right now, the state has given early retirement to those experienced foresters and the skill level has suffered. And along with that, the timber sales are no longer looked at as a means to manage the states forest lands, but a means of generating revenue. So now with a smaller work force and more demands for revenue, the attitude has become more of "quit whining and just cut the DanG'ed thing and pay us the money." Just so many mistakes, inaccuracies, etc. that it's unbelievable. The last job that I cut had one species not marked that was supposed to be cut, trees marked that were not possible to get to, a marked red pine thinning that made no sense at all, etc. And it was marked by a forester that is now a supervisor in the main office. It's sad.

So it seems the best thing to do is just what they expect. Bid accordingly and quit whinning.   

[Ron Scott]

The timber markers need to walk in the loggers shoes since the logging job that they want implemented to meet their silvicultural and landscape management objectives is controlled by how well the timber marking is done so that the logger can complete the job in a satisfactory manner.

I agree that there are many young timber markers these days that need to gain more experience in the woods to see "how the trees fall".

[Texas Ranger]

The alternative of not using a forester is leaving the harvest to the tender mercies of a logger.

I agree that foresters need to follow the loggers and learn from them.  At the very least, a marked sale of any nature levels the playing field for the buyers.

[Gary_C]

The alternative of not using a forester is leaving the harvest to the tender mercies of a logger.

Yes, there are pluses and minuses to both depending on the circumstances. But both alternatives are better than leaving the decisions to politicial whims or mother nature.

[pineywoods]

You guys are pointing out to me just how fortunate I am. I don't sell that much timber, but when I do, I never use a forester and almost never ask for bids. I use a local logging co run by 3 brothers. They are 4th generation loggers, I know them, I knew their parents and grandparents. When it comes to thinning pine, they are the best I have ever seen. Nobody else sets foot on my timber.

[Texas Ranger]

I had a client, now dead, that in his 80's ask me to mark and sell his timber lands.  He had been a buyer and seller in timber and land all  his life.  The sort of guy that that played his cards close to his vest.

The first of some 8 tracts that we marked was a very good stand of southern yellow pine.  I took the proposed bid sheet to him and told him we expected a bid of $235,000 or better.  He said "No, there ain't that much timber on that tract, I been buying and selling timber all my life, and there just ain't that much there".  The tract sold for over $250,000 taking advantage of a rising timber market and strong competition.

Of the eight tracts, the first three received the same response when I presented the proposal and estimated value to him.  After that, he never questioned the sales.  I can only believe that after that third one, he saw how he may have been taken advantage of for prices all his life.

A second story.  Marked and prepared a bid for a local guy.  When presented to him, he said "No, no bids, sell it to so and so brothers.  I have worked with their family, and them with mine, all their lives, sell it to them."  After a week long argument, I sold it to the "friends".  They cut and paid for Number One logs only, every thing else went to pulp.  The finale payment was less than my estimate, by a bunch.  The client was unhappy, and I reminded him that it was his choice, not mine.  We went to binding arbitration.  I presented my case, the brothers presented theirs, and the client his.  The brothers walked away, I walked away, and the client was pithed beyond reason when the verdict was that the client did it to himself. 

The timber market needs a leveler for the clients benefit, and an out and out sale of timber with no volumes, no tree tally, no controls, is asking for what you get.

Most land owners have no concept of volume or value, the loggers do, shaving 10% or more off the stumpage adds up, and not the advantage of the land owner.

I tell the locals, mostly cattlemen, do you sell your cows by telling the buyer go out and get 100 head and pay me what you think they are worth?  Uniformly the answer is "No, are  you crazy?"  Yet timber they sell that way.

Do what you want with your timber, give it away, sell it, or let the professionals help you.  You'll get what you deserve.

[SwampDonkey]

In my experience the biggest complaint was the taxes they owed the government. I've had a couple instances with loggers who didn't believe a cruise. Then they cut it and their attitude changed. Soon I was cruising some of their timber to.  :D :D Haven't cruised much in a long while now, the prices are so poor. Had a couple landowners in the last year, but I was too busy thinning. Can't be two places at once. Plus what little cruising is done now is done by marketing board staff. I don't consider them competition, because if there was demand for it two board staff couldn't begin to cover the ground, simple as that. Woodlot owners no longer rely on their woodlots like they did 25 years ago unless it's liquidated for farm bills and heirs. Easier and cheaper to make withdrawls than manage I guess.

[Clark]

rfm7fxfox - It sounds like you may need to have a little walk though the woods with some of these foresters.  I doubt that they were trying to set you up for failure.  Educating them as to your abilities is important.  And don't ask them why they marked this or that tree but tell them you would like to cut it but you can't because of X, Y and Z but if they had done or could this then I could cut it.

You should cut them some slack.  I know I have marked some trees thinking "I hope they can get that one and if not, oh well."  Yes, spraying the paint on trees is much easier than cutting them down!

Clark

[KBforester]

As a young forester with only 4-5 years of professional experience, I'm fresh off the boat with a lot of the tings discussed here.

rfm7fxfox- I agree with a lot of what you said. I personally do some of those things, mark the impossible tree for example, knowing well enough that they may not be able to get it. I think its important for a forester and logger to know each other well, and for everybody involved to understand what the expectations are. I'm fortunate enough to work in "industry", without bids, just using the same logger for years at a time. I know all about their habits, their capabilities, not to mention theirs friends and families. If they don't cut a tree that I assumed they could have gotten, then I'll ask them why. More often then not their is a good reason that I didn't think of. And I learned something. If I see a cut tree left standing but it was a tree I thought was a shot in the dark anyway, Oh well. It will never come down unless I try. I think it would be neat to be a logger for a year. I like hardwork and I cut my own woodlot a bit, but I think I would get fired my first day for nit-picking  :D

I understand that some leave tree will get marked for trails. I have heard of other foresters being real hard-asses about that too though. Not me, that part of the game.

If its timber out to bid, things get more difficult. It should be made clear to the logger what the foresters expectations are, or the forester needs to layout all the trails and be very realistic when marking. Otherwise, I think its the loggers responsibility to bid according to the "crazy" stuff he sees marked.

I think this thread needs a photo

[rfm7fxfox]

I'd say the trees are marked that need to come down for the management plan, whatever that is.
Up to the faller to get the tree out, not up to the forester to avoid marking a difficult tree.

And to use your words "Loggers do it best in the woods". :)

Im not bitchin' about "difficult" trees just some of them that are marked are absolutley idiotic, when you have to fell 15 unmarked cull trees because if you dont the one marked tree will smash the tops outa all of them its just pointless to fell it. Now i dont know about some other "loggers" but i take pride in the jobs i do, dont leave the woods looking a mess and the way some "foresters" mark wood is just rediculous and would leave the woods lookin like a hot mess! Difficulty isnt the issue here its the incompitance of certain foresters that has come into question. There are some great foresters out there that take EVERYTHING into consideration and they make it obvious then there are others who dont seem to care. When it takes 30+ minutes to fell one tree (when i could if felled 20) seems like a waste of time to me and ill just walk by it. Any tree can be laid down but i also take into consideration the man behind the machine, if i fell a tree and it lands somewhere that the skidder operator is going to have a hard time getting too thus wasting time (time = $$$) its pointless to me. Northeast has a lot of rocks and hilly terrain, if the land was flat then half of this wouldnt even be an issue. Just seems to me certain foresters need to open their eyes a little more and see the forest, not just the tree in front of them.

Thank you all for your input it was greatly appreciated...well most was!!

[rfm7fxfox]

Heres an example: recent job forester marked 230,000 board feet, 120,000 board feet came out of the job. Sadly the other 110,000 bdf was rotten at the stump with holes through out the tree a blind guy coulda seen the holes but they were still marked as log trees some even veneer trees then some of the rest were located on the other side of a swamp that we are not permitted to cross with no other way in and the forester knew this but marked them anyways and this so called forester is a seasoned "veteran"... maybe time he retire!

Again thank (most) of you guys for your responses most were GREAT and very knowlegeable makes me love being a member of this community!!!

[bill m]

It's not the foresters that leave the woods a mess it's the loggers. When I am faced with a problem tree ( one that will cause more damage to good growing stock,not cull trees,then I care for ) I discuss it with the forester. Some times he will say just leave it and find a different one in place of it. Also sometimes the forester will not waste time and paint to mark all of the cull trees that need to be taken to get a saw log tree out they know a good logger is smart enough to figure it out on his own.

[bill m]

Did you bid on this timber or just cut it for the mill that bought it?

[rfm7fxfox]

Did you bid on this timber or just cut it for the mill that bought it?

Subcontracted out by other logging companies or mill get paid by the thousand so its discouraging when you see the bid sheet saying there is 230000 bdf and you come out with less than half, i dont recall saying the foresters leave the woods a mess but the way some mark timber causes too much unproductive work to leave the woods looking nice, ill get some pictures up of jobs ive done and i promise you they look beautiful, im not a hack by any means like i said i take a lot of pride in my work and like to have a good reputation with landowners and mills. Can honestly say ive never had a complaint about any jobs ive finished. Even though i get paid per 1000 i make sure to slash my tops down have the skidder run them over, pull any firewood i can get even though i dont normally get paid for firewood and at the end of the job i take the skidder and a saw and remove any rubbed treas or any hangers leaving the woods safe and beautiful for the landowners to enjoy for years to come and also leavinv them able to have their property logged in years to come. In no way shape or form do i "rape" the wood lot. Every lot i cut i walk through sometimes taking days before i start the job to make a proper harvest plan for myself and machine operator and even invite the land owner to come with and express any opinions he or she might have. I look at it that if youre curtious to the woods it'll be  curtious to you...

And by the way bill you seem to
have a poor attitude...

[bill m]

Poor attitude about what?

[WDH]

rfm,

You seem to have an issue with a Forester that you do not approve of in the way he/she is doing the job.  Have you talked to them about it?

I feel that Bill added good perspective on the subject and do not understand your "poor attitude" comment.