Board thickness with woodmizer lt-40

[Peder McElroy]

Is there any trick to getting each board the same thickness using the mill mounted scale,is it just by eye? Other than to buy the accuset attachment. I'm used to the Lucas set works that is the same every time. Any help would be great.
I'm loving the fact that I am lucky to have two mills,both with different uses.
Thanks  Peder

[T Welsh]

Peder McElroy,Its just bye eye! the trick is to use the pointer or indicator and use one spot as a constant reference. Tim

[Stephen1]

I agree, it is hard but it as I was told a little practice and you`ll get it.
I would also like to get some sort of automatic system. I also find mine head will drop an 1)8th . Maybe someone else has added a setworks to a 1993 LT40 like mine. And if so how much.

´

[zopi]

That is one problem I will have when I move up from the fifteen to a forty...had not thought of it...the setworks on the fifteen is very positive, and tells you exactly where you are, by feel...hmm...guess I better get a mill with setworks...lol

[bandmiller2]

Peder,prehaps you could afix a cheap magnifier to the pointer bracket.My  bandmill uses hydraulics to raise and lower the head most accurate moving down,have no problem holding 1/32" tollerance.I could see where electric could be a problem with the size of the increments. Frank C.

[zopi]

Was thinking about this one last night...not sure how you would go about adapting set works...but a carriage travel digital readout off a metal lathe to display head height as an absolute above deck, or relative to a reference point would be coool....not sure if they can he found in twelve volts, or of they could be adapted easily..

[Chuck White]

I've found that I must be consistant with the point where I adjust the saw height, and I must stay at the same attitude when looking at the pointer.

If I am level from my eye to the pointer, I'll get one thickness of cut, but if I duck a little or stand on my toes, I'll get a noticeable difference in board thickness.

I had thought about putting another pointer, perhaps a piece of wire in front of the pointer (about an inch) and using it in a similar manner as one would use the sights on the rifle.

You would line up the add-on pointer and the one originally installed on the mill and align them both with the mark on the scale.  It would have to be accurate then!  ;D

[Marc Thornton]

That is an awesome idea chuck and seems like it would be a pretty simple modification. 

[zopi]

That is an awesome idea, could make a small  box with lexan in each end and a pair of hairs placed a half in apart or so, and mounted to the original sight mount...heh...the geek in me is already thinking of ways to make it eliminate parallax without ducking, althoug it is probably not practical...

[dovetails]

If they have to be exact size,buy a planer to make them all the same thickness
It's called RUFF cut for a reason afterall!

[Marc Thornton]

If they have to be exact size,buy a planer to make them all the same thickness
It's called RUFF cut for a reason afterall!

I think the point is if you go 1/8" heavy on every cut, 10 boards later you have wasted a board in extra thickness. 

If you go light from what the customer wanted, that is worse as you lost the board. and you have another 7 chances to lose another. 

I would say that if there is a simple way to ensure you are getting what you desire, most people would implement it.  Heck, a solution this simple I would think the mill manufacturers would adopt. 

[DR Buck]

Was thinking about this one last night...not sure how you would go about adapting set works...but a carriage travel digital readout off a metal lathe to display head height as an absolute above deck, or relative to a reference point would be coool....not sure if they can he found in twelve volts, or of they could be adapted easily..

Zopi,   This wouldn't work.  You'd need to account for kerf loss.   That's the bigggest benefit of Accuset.  The manual scale by default allows "automatic" kerf compensation if you align the mark that same way on every board.  A straight linear digital readout indicating height above deck will not.

[Bandmill Bandit]

practice is the only way I got it to the point where I get consistant results. Have to make sure the line on the ruler is lined up with the little bar on the marker the same every time. I like it to show just a smidge of black above bar with eye level to the marker bar.

I used a  thin stick about and inch wide duct taped to the back of the control box, top leveled to the little bar for a few thousand BF to get the feel for eye level to bar.

Also I have found that stoping on the up stroke of the mill head makes for more consistant cuts as well.

My next mill will have the accuset system on it.

[sgschwend]

Using a clear lens of about 1/8-3/16" thick, scribe two lines one on each side of the lens. 

When you use this lens you move your eyes till you only see one line.  That will eliminate the viewing angle error. 

[zopi]

Oh you would have to do some mental math, but a Dro would not be without use..

A better solution might be a backlit crosshair projected onto the rule...LED light would do it, and aligned as the visual crosshair...or maybe a laser diode aligned the same way..

[Magicman]

Or you could build an electronic gizmo with a sending unit telling it how far it was from the log deck.  You could just program it for board thickness and kerf thickness.....oh wait, Accuset II.   

[Peder McElroy]

I moved the pointer to the back side of the bracket that holds it on and it is about 3/16" closer and easer to see. I think that it will work. Peder

[zopi]

Yeah, magic, but accuset won't adapt to older mills...

[Magicman]

Yup, tongue in cheek only, sorry.  I was needing a cup.

Seriously, the newer WM indicators are skeleton metal instead of Plexiglas with a line scribed on it.  I'll bet the two of them could be used in tandem with a spacer between.  That way, you could adjust for your standing height and should be very accurate.

With SetWorks, I have to look at the scale to determine my starting point.  I quickly found that the newer metal indicator was more accurate for my use.

[zopi]

Lol...'s ok...what I was thinking of is a small box with two pieced of plexi, and a scribed line
On both sides...but with a housed reflector inside which reflects Led light onto the scale, and happens to center to cast a shadow onto the scale at the height of the head...no parallax...if the led goes out, just line up the two marks visually and keep sawing...good for those last late evening logs too.

[Chuck White]

ZOPI, I think either the pointer or the plexiglass box you're talking about would work very well and not an expensive mod either.

I also like the idea of an LED shining through the plexi and casting a shadow onto the scale.

[Dan_Shade]

I put my chin on the flip up cover from the console.  that keeps my eye in a pretty consistant spot to reduce parallax problems.

[zopi]

ZOPI, I think either the pointer or the plexiglass box you're talking about would work very well and not an expensive mod either.

I also like the idea of an LED shining through the plexi and casting a shadow onto the scale.

I thinks so too...originally, I envisioned something like a compound bow swing sight aperture, and when they were x raying my arm today I was looking over the machines aperture, with its backlit crosshairs, and it occured to me that that was probably the answer to this problem, couple of ways, the box with the crosshairs makes a failsafe that allows the led to fail and you can keep sawing...have really not figured out the mechanics yet, the electronics are easy, but I am not sure how it should go together. I am thinking a piece of uhmw or teflon plastic sandwiched between the two peices of plexi, and a hole bored in the side for an Led....the other possibility is making a mount for a laser...which appeals to me, but powering amd switching an inexpensive laser is something I have yet to delve into...and the grand or so the laser from wm costs is a bit much.

Something else occurs, a projection dot lens sight made for a paintball gun would certainly give the desired accuracy amd eliminate parallax, but still requires the operator to stoop or stretch.
Whatever the device, it needs be simple and easily replaceable...

[caveman]

Our lt 28 came with a magnetic 1/4 scale.  I just ensure that it is lined up with a mark, then without moving my head, lower the saw head to the next desired mark.  It works well enough.  For dimensional lumber, I got a piece of magnetic strip and stuck some white tape on it and made a scale to make 2x4's, 2x6's, etc.  It takes into account for saw kerf.  Caveman

[Brucer]

I've never had a problem with consistent board thickness --- except when the cant moves due to changing stresses. Consistency is the key.

Always raise the head up to your reading. This means each time you drop down for the next cut you have to lower the head "too far" and then raise it to the final reading. If you overshoot and go to high, drop down below the reading and come up again.

This is based on a common principle for all mechanical systems -- adjust against the dominant force (which happens to be gravity with a sawhead). If you lower the head to the final height, friction between the head and the mast may keep it from sinking all the way down. That leaves a little slack in the support system, whether it's a chain, screws, or even a cylinder. When the sawblade hits the wood,the vibration will slowly take up slack and the head will sink slightly.

Keep your head at the same height relative to the mark on the indicator. You can minimize the effect of having your head in the wrong place by moving the indicator as close to the scale as possible (without actual contact).

While it's true that having your eyes too low or too high with respect to the indicator can throw you off a little, it shouldn't have that big an effect. Say your indicator is 1/16" away from the scale, and your head is 24" away from the indicator. That means varying your head up or down over a 6" range will give you a vertical error of 1/64".

Often the real culprit with variable thickness is our ability to stop the head exactly where we want it. If you're off a little, drop the head down and try again. Do it several times if you have to. Eventually you get a feel for how to bump the head up just enough.

Mills with faster head adjust speeds are harder to get just right.

[terrifictimbersllc]

This is based on a common principle for all mechanical systems -- adjust against the dominant force (which happens to be gravity with a sawhead). If you lower the head to the final height, friction between the head and the mast may keep it from sinking all the way down. That leaves a little slack in the support system, whether it's a chain, screws, or even a cylinder. When the sawblade hits the wood,the vibration will slowly take up slack and the head will sink slightly.

Is this why Accuset 2, in the auto-down or set-to-bed modes, always comes back up a bit to the final position?

[bandmiller2]

There are probibly a hundred ways to modify this system but an easy to read scale and fine pointer close to each outher is plenty good. Just remember to have your eye close to the pointer level.Keep it simple.Frank C.

[Chuck White]

I went out a little while ago and removed the bottom screw from the pointer on my mill rigged up a short piece of wire and reinstalled the screw with the wire in place and then bent the wire so that it parallels the pointer and it seems to work pretty good.  Can't wait till Spring to give it a try while sawing.

The wire parallels the pointer and is in front of it 1/2 inch.

I really do think that this system will greatly enhance sawing accuracy without the expense of electronics on these older sawmills!

[Brucer]

Is this why Accuset 2, in the auto-down or set-to-bed modes, always comes back up a bit to the final position?

I expect so. It doesn't make sense to have an automatic system that can set the head to within 1/32" while at the same time leaving slack in the physical equipment that can let the head creep down 1/16" or more.

[terrifictimbersllc]

Is this why Accuset 2, in the auto-down or set-to-bed modes, always comes back up a bit to the final position?

I expect so. It doesn't make sense to have an automatic system that can set the head to within 1/32" while at the same time leaving slack in the physical equipment that can let the head creep down 1/16" or more.

This is great, thanks, I have probably been calibrating the head ("set to bed 12"") using a mixture of both coming down to 12 and coming up to 12", which may explain why my vertical height can be off a bit (1/16' or less). 

[Magicman]

I always come "down" to the mark because that is what my SetWorks does.  That way, my thicknesses are consistent.

I do understand the bump up theory though since that is what AccuSet II does.   ;)

[Bandmill Bandit]

Well this thread has me doing another minor mod to my LT40.
I have a laser that I picked up ata garage sale for 10 bucks. Dewalt DW7187. The switch part is garbage for this mod but the laser is perfect.  I will attach it to the mount I installed for the LED light that lights the ruler in the dark and run it off the same circuit and power supply that the LED is running on now. Not sure if I will still need the LED with the laser installed or not but will find out when install is complete. Pic to follow when I have it done.

Not sure what it would be worth to buy new but the following link will show you the parts i am working with.


http://www.dewalt.com/tools/miter-saw-lasers-dw7187.aspx   

[zopi]

Cool! Let us know how it works out!

[Bandmill Bandit]

Well the temp test mounting worked out great. That little laser has all the adjustment you could ever want built right into the housing so it is a very good unit to use on the ruler and allows simple adjustments on 3 plains to get it synchronized with the other mill measuring systems.

Will run the mill in the shop and do permanent mount over the week end.

Pics are of temp mount taken just before lunch on a pretty bright sunny day. 



Temp mount no power connection.



Power connected.



My setting/checking stick that I keep handy to check/set the GREEN Laser site on my mill. Little tweaking to do once it mounted permanent but it pretty close fro a temp mount.   


Success!!! I can now upload and post pics with ease. THANKYOU  Jeff!!!

Now we just need to get WoodMizer to get that laser as an option so it would be in an orange housing instead of yellow.

[Chuck White]

Good show there, Bandit!

[Stephen1]

I was wondering how it would work, I reallly need to see something physical, thanks BB I see how it would work. But if the head is at the top would it not be the same when you are looking at it from the standing position. I have a block of wood to stand on to keep my line of site at the same angle.
Brucer, I found that it was better to lift the head into position, now I know why. :-[

Where is Marty on this one, someone should send him a link on this post. I would like to WM weigh in on this.

[Bandmill Bandit]

With the laser line directly on the ruler the margin of error on where your eye level sees that line from is so negligible that you would have a very hard time noticing it in the lumber. I doubt you would even be able to measure for with a caliper.

As you can see in my pic the 2 lasers are off about a 1/16th and that did not change at any point in the travel of the head top to bottom. Also the red laser is not quite square in the pic as it only has one screw holding it on close to the ruller side.

When I am done with it will be square and solid and it will be covered with an ORANGE shield to keep the weather out as much as possible. Might paint that shield black. Have to see how it looks.

Also have to incorporate the LED light as the red laser does not provide enough light for night operation.

Maybe Wood mizer would like to weigh in on the color since I have the "proto type" pretty much done for them. 8) 

When I have the mill in the shop I will take pics of the lighting system I installed.
If it is possible to upload a video on the new sysytem I will do a short video to show how I did it all.   

[MartyParsons]

Hello,
I have been reading the post. I think you guys have covered it all.  8)  If you have the plexiglass pointer. You can change to the metal pointer. I change them often during a service. the part # would be 017778. I think they are $ 6.00. I always go past the mark and bring it back up. If you go down and stop, jerk the saw head and you will see it settle. Ever so slightly but it moves.
Accuset 2 is the best but will not work in all applications.

I once had an owner come out with dial cailpers after I did a service and check the thickness of the lumber.    He said it is .010 thin on one side. I would adjust take two cuts and he said said dead on.  :
At 47 I have a time seeing 1/32" let alone .010.
Marty

[trapper]

marty
would 017778. be the right part for a 87 lt 30 also?

[Bandmill Bandit]

I once had an owner come out with dial cailpers after I did a service and check the thickness of the lumber.    He said it is .010 thin on one side. I would adjust take two cuts and he said said dead on.  :
At 47 I have a time seeing 1/32" let alone .010.
Marty

Did he say which side was the thinner side?? top or bottom?? :D

That sounds a lot like my son!

Mill is in the shop so should get to finishing the laser mods tomorrow.

[Bandmill Bandit]

All I have left to do is tidy and tie every thing up and put the covers back in place.


Ruler laser installed and operational with 2 LEDs to light the ruler in the dark as well. Hard to get a realistic picture with my little camera. Will get my son to do one with his SLR. The line is very visible and the lights actually make the laser line better defined but the picture whites it out.


This pic shows the 2 black power supplies that run the LEDs and Lasers about the middle of the box and the re-trigger-able on/off time adjustable relay that controls the green laser site for automatic shutoff for so that laser can not be left on accidentally. Currently set for 20 seconds. Will adjust as required but I think 20 seconds is pretty close.


Back of the trigger switch.


Trigger switch located close to saw head lift/lower control lever.


You can see the back of the row of the 5 LEDs that light the control panel in the dark


Console in place, lights on.


1 of 3 x 55 watt tractor lamps, magnetic base.


2 of 3 x 55 watt lamps. Solid mount.


3 of 3 55 watt lamps. magnetic base on this one too.

5 amp switch circuit to a 40 amp relay wired direct to battery on number 10 copper



   
  HDR of ruler laser. didnt make to much difference.




HDR of console lighting.

   

[zopi]

Slick...laser guided sawmill....

[Bandmill Bandit]

I guess i didnt finish the posting on this mod whne it was finished. H vae to find some of the pics and get them in here.

Here are 2 that I thought I had added but only got them in my gallery



 


 

[Journeys]

First day in the forum and glad to see so much great knowledge...  I just started milling with an LT40 super and have lots of questions.  However, the biggest challenge I'm currently facing is getting consistent board thickness.  Most of this is my own impatience getting the blade set at just the right height due to the sporadic and inconsistent movement of the head.  Its a whole lot of up, down, up, down, down, up, down, up, up,.... arg... close enough!!  you get the idea... frustrating and time consuming to say the least.  I've tried lubricating the guides thinking it was binding or something but that doesn't seem to do the trick.  Any thoughts on how to resolve?

[terrifictimbersllc]

Need to know more about your mill, what year is it and what kind of setworks do you have?   Good to put this in your profile (see mine for example).  Welcome.

[Journeys]

Thanks for the tip.  I will get my profile updated.  In the mean time, I have a 2001 WM super hydraulic.  When I bought the machine used, the setworks component attached never worked correctly so we just used the manual adjustment.  We actually just ran into an issue where we had to bypass the setworks component completely due to an issue where the setworks computer would interfere with the manual adjustment which prevented the head from moving at all (we never really knew what was going on with the computer because the digital screen was broken).  However, the machine works more or less the same with respect to it being a challenge with setting the board thickness now with the computer disconnected vs. connected and not used.

[Chuck White]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, Journeys.

The cheapest, quickest & least expensive would be to do what I did (IMHO).

Read my posts, 6 & 27 in this thread!

I later ordered 2 metal scale pointers from Wood-Mizer and installed both of them with a nut on the bolts in between the 2 pointers in order to maintain a little distance for alignment purposes!

[Nomad]

      Welcome, Journeys.  I think the first thing I'd do is get on the horn in the morning with WoodMizer and  try talking through your up/down issue with a tech.

[Bandmill Bandit]

The single most stress reducing group of upgrades I did to my mill are the 2 Lasers and the simple set
With those 3 systems all coordinated and working together its pretty much a set and forget once you have the log opened and I am 99% sure that Set Works would even enhance what I have.

The laser on the ruler stick is as accurate as you can get it regardless of your eye level/angle. the green High power laser site for the log takes a LOT of the guess work out of the mental log reading.

Once set, simple set hits your desired setting most of the time. The only time I notice any deviation is on a large cant where I can lose about a 32nd on 10 or more cuts to finish the cant but that is getting really picky. We are cutting rough lumber after all.

My personal pet peave is wavy lumber. I work extra hard to keep that from occurring.     

[drobertson]

reading a scale is just a pain, even with accuset, I've tried to compare,, hats off to you guys that go by scale, not interested in going there,,  I have ideas but,,, why not just get a set works and do away with it,, saw the same every time,,  or rely on the planer, which by the way is not that uncommon with setworks,, stress and bow can and will cause issues with thickness,

[Peter Drouin]

My first2 WM only had the ruler on the mass, In time you should be able to drop the head on the 1" scale, 4/¼ timing yourself with your hand to go past the mark and hit it up and be right on where you want to be. With time you will have your timing down to hit anything on the scale.

[Dave Shepard]

I agree. Down past the mark and then bump up. I rarely missed when I was running the manual mill. My Super is a lot faster, so I don't know how well it would work with that because I use the setworks all the time.

[4x4American]

I like Chuck's rifle sight idea alot.  Another thing that helps for me (if you have a remote console) is to gig the head allll the way back so you can put your face right up close to it.  Also, if you can, try and get the pointer as close to the scale as possible.  If you have it about touching, the angle your head is at won't make no matter as much, ya pickin up what I'm putting down? 

[Chuck White]

Bandit;  I like the laser on the scale, where'd you get it, HF?

[Bandmill Bandit]

Bandit;  I like the laser on the scale, where'd you get it, HF?

Some where in the mods thread i put a link to that laser module. Its off a Dewalt Miter saw.

Ill go digging for it and insert it here too. I picked mine up at a garage sale for 10 bucks

http://www.dewalt.com/us/mitersaws/products/accessory_dw7187.html

Think I may have just cracked the nut on converting my manual hydraulic control valve over to electric controls too.

[Brucer]

I don't use any kind of setworks, just the manual up-down drum switch. No problem getting consistent thickness. Mind you, I've put 2800 hours on 3 Wood-Mizers and cut 400,000 + BF of lumber ;D.

Trying to get the head to stop in just the right place was frustrating at first but it didn't take too long to get the hang of it. The key is to always bring the sawhead up to the mark. This means on each cut you have to first drop the sawhead below the mark (not much!) and then bring it back up. It's exactly the same principle as tuning a stringed instrument. Always bring the string up to pitch.

You don't have to drop the head very far below the mark -- 1/8" is plenty -- but at first it's easier if you give yourself a half inch or so. That lets you lift the head smoothly and release the drum switch just before you hit the mark.

The fastest way to get the hang of this is to be super picky. Don't accept "close enough". If you overshoot, drop the head back down and try again. Yes, it slows you down, but it also gives you a lot of practice in a hurry.

With practice you'll eventually get to the point where you can just bump the switch enough to lift the head 1/32"  ;D.

As for lining the alignment mark with the scale, lots of good ideas here. I make it a point to always have my eyes level with the mark, and sometimes that means letting the sawdust build up alongside the mill ('cause I'm a tad shorter than the scale :D). The key thing is consistency when lining up the mark. Do it the same every time.

[Magicman]

Hello and Welcome to the Forestry Forum, Journeys. 

[Bandmill Bandit]

Hey Brucer
You nailed it on the getting the hang of the head management for thickness setting.
There still about half the logs I cut where the set works is not much help and it just quicker to set 3 or 4 inch cuts manually. Ay kind of set works is more at home in a high production run of 1x or 2x etc.

But the little laser on the ruler is probably NOT the one I would want to saw with out as it just doesn't matter what kind of an angle you look at it from it is going to be bang on the mark 100 percent of the time. That was an annoying part of the the little steel marker piece for me.

That little laser provides about a half inch of vertical adjustment with an Allen wrench and it is real simple to do too. So get the alignment to saw band set up is real simple and very accurate. Also makes setting the Green line log laser real simple too.

Welcome to the forum Journeys. Think I said that further up but just in case.           

[kensfarm]

Sometimes I go low-tech..  just a tape measure and pencil mark on the log. 

[reswire]

I used to have a tk 1600 without set works.  I installed a digital scale I got from eBay.  It read from 32 inches down to zero.  Simply superglued it to the side of the mill, and it gave a digital readout on the distance from the deck to the blade.  Costs less than 50 bucks I think, worth every penny. ;D

[Journeys]

Thanks for the warm welcome and all the tips everyone.  I will likely do a little of everything mentioned, including calling the woodmizer tech because I still feel like the head jumps too much when trying to move up or down just a hair.  I also think the gun site mod would work well too.  However, I have some Karri Eucalyptus beams to resaw tomorrow for a flooring project my customer has... so it will probably mean just taking my time, maybe even marking the beams with a tape and pencil to make sure these cuts turn out well.  Thanks again!

[barbender]

     I have found that the head on my Super is pretty jumpy too, the things are just so blasted fast that it makes it hard to hit your mark. I ended up putting on a pulley in the drive system that slowed it down a bit (by accident, I needed a replacement and WM sent me the wrong size) that helps for hitting the mark. Otherwise, in a Super, the setworks are your friend.

[Bandmill Bandit]

     I have found that the head on my Super is pretty jumpy too, the things are just so blasted fast that it makes it hard to hit your mark. I ended up putting on a pulley in the drive system that slowed it down a bit (by accident, I needed a replacement and WM sent me the wrong size) that helps for hitting the mark. Otherwise, in a Super, the setworks are your friend.

One thing I do as regular as I grease my drum switchs (about 100hrs) is to spray the all pivot points in side the drum switch with a very high grade silicone spray lube that I have for my shop door opener. The can costs just over 30 bucks Canadian and the only place I have found it so far is at the commercial Reddeer Overdoor company. It works real good at making those switches flip back to centre very easily.

I changed one switch last fall and it was pretty sticky so I gave it a good treatment with the spray lube before I installed it and it "broke in" pretty quick. some of those switches are more sluggish than others and the parts guy at the Westburn Electrical supply told me that you have to make sure you get made in USA or Canada one. The ones from China have very poor springs. Apparently the real cheap Square D switches are not made over here, only assembled here with Chinese components.

         

[Seaman]

Great thread!
I was having trouble with the pointer moving as I engaged the blade. ( manual scale only on my old mill ) I would have to bump it again with the blade running, and sometimes ( often ) the last board would be thicker. Yesterday I tried going down past my intended mark, then coming back up, and cured BOTH problems! I LOVE YOU GUYS ! The slack taken out of the lift chains makes all that difference.
Thanks again to Jeff and the whole FF for helping me build my business!
Frank